Amerika

[User Name]

First, my fellow citizens have every right to scorn the United States.  That freedom is assured to them.  They usually don't know know how good they have it, but neither knowledge nor wisdom are required for the exercise of free speech.

 

Second, folks in other countries can deride us.  I think everyone should be free to speak, not just here, but in every country.  ...But some of us have been to your countries.  We've been guests, driven your roads, loved your people, shared something of America with you, and brought something of your country back with us when we returned.  We are not the evil people you seem to think we are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What about those of us who do know how good we have it? I may be going out on a limb here, but I'd venture to say I've spent more time abroad, and in more places, than anybody else on these boards, oftentimes obliged to pay for it all by my lonesome. I'm as big a fan of irony as anyone else, but it gets tiring to hear that I have no idea what I'm talking about, that I hate America and everyone in it, I'm one step away from a Palestinian suicide bomber, etc. etc. etc. I've played in the sandbox before, but I'm just not one of those guys who waves flags and declares American supremacy all the time.

 

I remember my mother-in-law was visiting (she's Russian) and we were at a gas station, and there was some hillbilly truck with all the American flags and "Support Our Troops!" crap all over the back, and she was asking about it. She honestly didn't get it; her exact words were, "What, does he need a constant reminder of what country he's in?" Russians are intensely nationalistic, believe me, but they and a lot of other countries just don't get all the flag-waving that we do. They see it as arrogance, and I tend to agree.

 

"My country is always right," and "My country, right or wrong," are just as foolish as, "America is always wrong." Take pride in your country, by all means, but do it quietly. I assume that most people who work in an office setting respect the guy who always gets his crap done and never makes a big deal about it; the guy who you never notice and yet always seems to be on top of his game. On the other hand, the office braggart who's always crowing about his accomplishments and never admitting his mistakes is going to be disliked no matter how effective he is - he's going to be disagreed with even if he happens to be right some of the time.

 

Which one of those gentlemen most closely resembles the American image abroad, hmm?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like flags. They make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

 

...And russians have always been to apathetic for that, even during their comradeship period.

 

End of Thread.

[Cantousent]

Okay, I'll bite.

 

I've always wondered about flag waving. I think I've waved a flag maybe once in my life at a fourth of July celebration. I'm an intensely patriotic fellow. I believe, with my whole heart, the exceptionalism of my country. ...But I've always thought the best ways to show your patriotism were to vote, accept your obligation of serving on a jury, paying your taxes, and, if necessary, serving in the military.

 

Most folks who have flags draped on their cars or trucks or stuck out on poles in front of their houses fail to maintain them. As a result, the flags look bleached and start to tear. That's not a particularly good way to show your love of country or the flag.

 

I don't see anything wrong with being up front about either our victories or mistakes. We are a great and petty people. Yes, I've seen the ugly Americans abroad and thought that they presented a malformed view of the U.S. ...But we've had a lot of friends in the world. We still do, even if the current administration is unpopular abroad.

 

As far as the non-sense of being a suicide bomber, etc. NUTS! I don't think any rational person believes any such thing about you.

[kirottu]

One problem is that all the flags are quite boring. No country has intresting looking flags and most of them are cheap copies anyway. Pfft, I say.

 

Now, I have couple of really cool looking Iron Maiden flags that I would not mind waveing around.

[Lucius]

But surely, Eldar, you can see why some people might find it arrogant, that so many Americans wave their flags and chant about how it is the greatest, most free nation in the world, when many of these very same people (but of course not all, mind you) hardly know anything about the freedoms enjoyed in the many, many democracies around the world.

[Reveilled]

Everyone, I'm sure, is familiar with these bible verses:

 

Matthew

6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

 

Now, I personally do not believe that the bible is divinely inspired, but I nevertheless think these words to be very true. Do those that wave their flags on the corners of the streets, and proclaim loudly their love of America really love their country? They claim so often that various groups hate America for its freedom, but do they advocate freedom? Or do they want to take it away?

 

I say that the people who wave the Stars and Stripes while wanting to take away the rights of the American citizens are the ones that disrespect the flag.

 

In any case, I believe that too high a priority is placed on the flag and the country. If you asked the Founding Fathers whether it was the Flag of the United States of America and the Republic for which it stands that was more important, or Liberty and Justice for all, I'm sure it's not hard to guess what their answer would be.

[kirottu]

I have a question: Does any other country than USA call the president of United States of America the leader of free world?

 

It annoys me greatly every time I hear it.

[Lucius]

I haven't heard it from anyone outside the US, but I can't say for sure.

[Musopticon?]

I have a question: Does any other country than USA call the president of United States of America the leader of free world?

 

It annoys me greatly every time I hear it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope. That's a leftover from the times of iron curtain. Something not worth keeping, if you ask me.

 

Revvie, great post.

[FFSOMGLOLOLOL]

But surely, Eldar, you can see why some people might find it arrogant, that so many Americans wave their flags and chant about how it is the greatest, most free nation in the world, when many of these very same people (but of course not all, mind you) hardly know anything about the freedoms enjoyed in the many, many democracies around the world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do you care what other people do in their homes with their painted blankets? As long as they don't come to MY house to wave their flags, I don't give a flyin' f*ck.

 

Just quit telling people what's right and what's wrong dude, as long as they don't step on your toes. it's the same holier-than-thou attitude, just with different colors.

 

 

It annoys me greatly every time I hear it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, didn't you know? I'm King of the Universe. The authority of being King of the Universe gives me the right to grant that title to myself. Are you annoyed yet? If you are, there are qualified professionals that can help you.

 

 

 

Copyright Notice. You acknowledge that, unless otherwise specifically designated, Halliburton is the sole owner of all intellectual property rights to this universe and its contents, including but not limited to copyright protection for all content, including the design, layout, graphics, photos, format, and other visual elements of the universe. All ownership rights pertaining to the information and material contained on this post, including but not limited to the King of the Universe name, logos, trademark, graphics, photos, images, and content, are owned or have been duly licensed by Halliburton, WITH ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

[Cantousent]

I don't think folks are jealous of our freedom, but I would think that free people everywhere would value freedom. American isn't the source of freedom, merely the proud recipient of it.

 

We've been a lucky folk in many ways, here in the United States. Perhaps some of the folks have been exhuberant in their love of freedom and deomcracy. That's undoubtedly irritating to folks from other countries, especially in countries where, as Lucius rightly notes, the citizens are equally free.

 

Still, if the idea is that I should not have some pride for the great things my country has done, I'll politely disagree. Does that mean that I cannot recognize the mistakes we've made? Of course not. I have some sympathy for folks who've sent me PMs concerning errors the United Ststes has commited. I understand the anger some folks have for us.

 

Nevertheless, if you believe that I should not have some pride for my country, I'll continue to disagree. I know that other countries have reason for pride. I'm an Anglophile. I believe in the greatness of the United Kingdom. I respect the rich history of France and other western European countries. I'm a classicist. I hold the ancient world in the utmost regard. Japan and China have a heritage that extends far into the past and true days of glory and grandeur.

 

Even so, I'll not stop taking pride in those moments of greatness in my own country. I hope, no matter where you live, you can find similar instances for your nation.

 

It doesn't take anything from you that I recognize that the idea and guiding principle undlying my nation is a noble endeavor. It is that ideal that I hold most dear, even when we, as a nation, fail. Reveilled has the right of it. That's the biggest reason I've never been much of a flag waver. The flag is a symbol of our country, but it is only a bit of cloth with some color added. The real heart of our nation isn't the flag. It's our belief in and fierce love of freedom.

 

You know, Lucius, I hope you share that love. If I were an atheist, deomcracy would be my religion.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"Are you annoyed yet? If you are, there are qualified professionals that can help you."

 

A deluded man is a far less annoying thing than a deluded nation.

[metadigital]

...

Most folks who have flags draped on their cars or trucks or stuck out on poles in front of their houses fail to maintain them.  As a result, the flags look bleached and start to tear.  That's not a particularly good way to show your love of country or the flag.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is wrong. If any governmental body did this, they would be subject to offical demerits. The sun should not go down on the flag. The flag embodies all those who had given their lives for their country. People who aren't bothereed enough to spend the time rasing the flag every morning and lowering it again at dusk shouldn't have one. (Put up a nice picture of one, instead.)

[Lucius]

Why do you care what other people do in their homes with their painted blankets? As long as they don't come to MY house to wave their flags, I don't give a flyin' f*ck.

Well it's not like a superpower is that easy to ignore, mind you.

 

As long as they don't come to MY house to wave their flags, I don't give a flyin' f*ck.

Call me anti-american, but I just couldn't help picturing...

 

...this when you wrote that.

[metadigital]

I have a question: Does any other country than USA call the president of United States of America the leader of free world?

 

It annoys me greatly every time I hear it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The USA is the only Hyper-Power. Post cold-war, there are barely any super-powers. The USA, whether you like it or not, is the leading nation; their President is, therefore, the leader of the free world. (Who would you say is the leader of the free world? The President of the EU? No chance; the EU couldn't even agree a common agrarian policy, let alone a joint military statement. UN Secretary-General Kofi Anan? Possibly, except he has no power to back up his authority, except that granted him by the 500 pound gorilla that sits beside him: the USA. Always, might has dictated authority in human history. I hope one day that merit and ethics might.)

 

Let's put it in sharp contrast. If Russia decided to walk into Finland tomorrow, who would you most want to be there to fight alongside the Finnish military; fighting for your freedom? And who is the most likely to be there?

 

'Nuff said.

[Lucius]

I don't think folks are jealous of our freedom, but I would think that free people everywhere would value freedom.  American isn't the source of freedom, merely the proud recipient of it.

 

We've been a lucky folk in many ways, here in the United States.  Perhaps some of the folks have been exhuberant in their love of freedom and deomcracy.  That's undoubtedly irritating to folks from other countries, especially in countries where, as Lucius rightly notes, the citizens are equally free.

 

Still, if the idea is that I should not have some pride for the great things my country has done, I'll politely disagree.  Does that mean that I cannot recognize the mistakes we've made?  Of course not.  I have some sympathy for folks who've sent me PMs concerning errors the United Ststes has commited.  I understand the anger some folks have for us.

 

Nevertheless, if you believe that I should not have some pride for my country, I'll continue to disagree.  I know that other countries have reason for pride.  I'm an Anglophile.  I believe in the greatness of the United Kingdom.  I respect the rich history of France and other western European countries.  I'm a classicist.  I hold the ancient world in the utmost regard.  Japan and China have a heritage that extends far into the past and true days of glory and grandeur.

 

Even so, I'll not stop taking pride in those moments of greatness in my own country.  I hope, no matter where you live, you can find similar instances for your nation.

 

It doesn't take anything from you that I recognize that the idea and guiding principle undlying my nation is a noble endeavor.  It is that ideal that I hold most dear, even when we, as a nation, fail.  Reveilled has the right of it.  That's the biggest reason I've never been much of a flag waver.  The flag is a symbol of our country, but it is only a bit of cloth with some color added.  The real heart of our nation isn't the flag. It's our belief in and fierce love of freedom.

 

You know, Lucius, I hope you share that love.  If I were an atheist, deomcracy would be my religion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well you're clearly not one of the guys I'm talking about Eldar, you sure know your history and have a good reason to be proud, you're not just proud for the sake of being proud. This is a good thing.

The flag of my nation is 800 years old and even has a myth to it, it does hold a certain historical pride for me, but I don't go around sticking it on my car or my wall etc.

 

I would write more, but I'm sorta in a hurry.

 

One PS though: Meta is right, flags go down at dusk, else you'd be flying it for the Devil. :ph34r: (thats the saying here anyway)

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"Let's put it in sharp contrast. If Russia decided to walk into Finland tomorrow, who would you most want to be there to fight alongside the Finnish military; fighting for your freedom? And who is the most likely to be there?"

 

Nazi Germany.

[FFSOMGLOLOLOL]

"Are you annoyed yet? If you are, there are qualified professionals that can help you."

 

A deluded man is a far less annoying thing than a deluded nation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only if you are one of the mindless drones that make up the faceless masses.

 

 

Why do you care what other people do in their homes with their painted blankets? As long as they don't come to MY house to wave their flags, I don't give a flyin' f*ck.

Well it's not like a superpower is that easy to ignore, mind you.

Sure it is. Just pull the plug on your TV and you should be just fine. It's not like you have Amerikan Marines marching down your street, is it?

 

Though that'll change soon enough, you'll see... you'll ALL see!

 

 

As long as they don't come to MY house to wave their flags, I don't give a flyin' f*ck.

Call me anti-american, but I just couldn't help picturing...

 

...this when you wrote that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:">

 

Okay, but war is older than nationalisms, patriotism, or any of that crap. That ain't the official stance of the US govt anyway and I don't think any Iraqi has been forced to march in a parade in honor of the US flag. I don't even know if there have been any such parades.

 

 

Copyright Notice. You acknowledge that, unless otherwise specifically designated, Halliburton is the sole owner of all intellectual property rights to this universe and its contents, including but not limited to copyright protection for all content, including the design, layout, graphics, photos, format, and other visual elements of the universe. All ownership rights pertaining to the information and material contained on this post, including but not limited to the King of the Universe name, logos, trademark, graphics, photos, images, and content, are owned or have been duly licensed by Halliburton, WITH ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"Only if you are one of the mindless drones that make up the faceless masses."

 

At least put some effort to it.

[FFSOMGLOLOLOL]

"Only if you are one of the mindless drones that make up the faceless masses."

 

At least put some effort to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At least try to make some sense.

[Dark Moth]

I think some of this stems from the fact that we were one of the first countries (modern) to put democracy into use and actually make it work. Granted the idea of it already existed, but at the time we were among the first to actually do it. I don't see any problem with displaying a flag, whether it be on your car, in a window, in your yard, etc. Granted, I think it's overboard when people coat their entire yards or cars in flags, and ignorant when they spout patriotism just for the sake of it.

 

On the other hand, what makes me sick is the way some people resort to America-bashing anytime someone shows pride in our country. We are not liked by many people in the world, I admit. But much of that also stems from ignorance, jealosy, or just plain hypocracy. For all the ignorant people who love our country, there are ignorant people who hate our country. I kind of doubt we'd see the same uproar if a country like Spain or Britain proudly trumped nationalism. And we being a superpower, of course, draw more attention than other countries.

 

And by the way, I for one have no problem with Saddam's face being wrapped in an American flag. I support that soldier all the way.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"At least try to make some sense."

 

I figured it'd be lost on you.

[FFSOMGLOLOLOL]

"At least try to make some sense."

 

I figured it'd be lost on you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, the incoherent babblings of raving schizophrenics usually are.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

You fail reading comprehension.

[Lucius]

And by the way, I for one have no problem with Saddam's face being wrapped in an American flag.    I support that soldier all the way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only what he did was to make it appear like Iraq was now part of the USA, not a good way to win over the average Iraqi.

[metadigital]

"Let's put it in sharp contrast. If Russia decided to walk into Finland tomorrow, who would you most want to be there to fight alongside the Finnish military; fighting for your freedom? And who is the most likely to be there?"

 

Nazi Germany.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ha! Germany are a little loathe to rekindle that flame. I called someone a nazi (small "n") on a German forum the other day. Didn't go down too well. Not much of a sense of humour, there.

 

 

(He deserved it; he added a comment telling us not to discuss Zork in a thread about Ultima, when it was about two posts each and was "I wish I could get hold of the Zorks", I provided the link, and the the zealot comment.)