But the #1 reason that CRPGs aren't dying...

[Lancer]

Discounting the lack of mods, nothing is changed in xbox Morrowind. I know; I've played both.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So no slowdown? No reduction in gameworld size? No simplified dialogue?

[Musopticon?]

No, no and no.

 

Only the interface is somewhat different due to the lack of mouse.

 

Well, there's some laggy places, but it's all avoidable.

[Lancer]

No, no and no.

 

Only the interface is somewhat different due to the lack of mouse.

 

Well, there's some laggy places, but it's all avoidable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is good news although getting console gamers to like PC-style RPGS is a much tougher challenge.

[Lancer]

But how we classify the recent happenings in the crpg genre is entirely subjective. I don't classify it as athropy, but evolvement.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

People need to start reading my entire posts lest they run into making false inferences or mis-interpreting my arguments like metadigital did.

 

I say we can't really tell until we let things run its course. Something very different and unprecedented is happening in the industry and IMHO it is too early to tell what is really happening. It is, although, an exciting time to be in right now.

[Musopticon?]

True, true. I foresee a great change in the biz in the near future.

[Yst]

The most worrisome thing in the RPG genre for me right now is sky-rocketing production costs. I don't want a gaming culture wherein you can't sell a story-focused game if it costs less than $10 Million to make.

 

And one major reason for those sky-rocketing production costs seems to be the apparent need developers and publishers feel to make RPGs more cinematic. More like feature films. This has hit the FPS genre as well mind you, with games like Mafia and Max Payne putting gameplay in an overtly cinematic context. Small developers can't afford to self-publish a game which is also a hollywood blockbuster and if big publishers don't want to pick up RPG titles without these high budget aspects, this could be a real problem for conventional RPGs. If small developers can't succeed because their Roleplaying Game doesn't look like it could double as the next Michael Bay flick, then I am worried. But I hope that small and indie dev studios are able to keep their titles in distribution as well as on the shelves (for however long shelves continue to be necessary to game distribution) despite these changes. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Lancer]

The most worrisome thing in the RPG genre for me right now is sky-rocketing production costs.  I don't want a gaming culture wherein you can't sell a story-focused game if it costs less than $10 Million to make. 

 

And one major reason for those sky-rocketing production costs seems to be the apparent need developers and publishers feel to make RPGs more cinematic.  More like feature films.  This has hit the FPS genre as well mind you, with games like Mafia and Max Payne putting gameplay in an overtly cinematic context.  Small developers can't afford to self-publish a game which is also a hollywood blockbuster and if big publishers don't want to pick up RPG titles without these high budget aspects, this could be a real problem for conventional RPGs.  If small developers can't succeed because their Roleplaying Game doesn't look like it could double as the next Michael Bay flick, then I am worried.  But I hope that small and indie dev studios are able to keep their titles in distribution as well as on the shelves (for however long shelves continue to be necessary to game distribution) despite these changes.  We'll just have to wait and see.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Exactly.. we have bigger dev studios like Bioware that have enough money to make real western RPGs that are able to keep up with the demand for improved graphics (at the present) but keep in mind that they are also making console RPGs now. Now they have to contend with a new fanbase with an established preference for JRPG-style gaming. If studios like Bioware then feel pressure to gradually conform to the JRPG console standard, that means the end of the console as a viable alternative for western RPG gaming. This possibility worries me.

 

This only leaves the very small dev studios left. And if the small dev studios don't have enough in their pockets to keep up with the rising graphical standards, then the western RPG market could very well hit a dark age.

[alanschu]

Also, if developers happen to find console RPG making to be far more profitable why would they even continue making western RPGs in the future?

 

Because there is still a market for those that want to play western RPGs.

 

 

As for people liking western RPGs, both KOTOR and Morrowind were insanely popular games on the console.

 

 

As for rising costs, look at the work that Will Wright is doing with Spore. The procedural design of the game creates art algorithmically. It severely reduces the size, and eliminates the need for 200 artists working on a game. It will mean bad things for artists in the game industry, but it will be a wrecking ball to the soaring costs.

[Cantousent]

I think there will always be a place for the independent developer, just as there is a place for the independent producer in films. Sure, they don't get the major share of the market, but they still have a place. Folks still watch the films and enjoy them. I'm not worried about RPGs dying. I've heard far too many times that RPGs were on their way out. Hell, I've even heard that RPGs were gone for good. We'll continue to have RPGs, western, Japanese, and otherwise.

[metadigital]

Discounting the lack of mods, nothing is changed in xbox Morrowind. I know; I've played both.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Resolution must be different. Consoles use television resolution. Any game that supports more than 800x600 is far superior than a console. Morrowind was quite demanding (DirectX 8.1).

[alanschu]

But TVs get "free" antialiasing

[metadigital]

But how we classify the recent happenings in the crpg genre is entirely subjective. I don't classify it as athropy, but evolvement.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People need to start reading my entire posts lest they run into making false inferences or mis-interpreting my arguments like metadigital did.

 

I say we can't really tell until we let things run its course. Something very different and unprecedented is happening in the industry and IMHO it is too early to tell what is really happening. It is, although, an exciting time to be in right now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe you need to stop pretending you said things that you didn't.

 

I very carefully went back and directly quoted your posts. Simply saying that I mis-read you is not sufficient, unless you can display where.

 

This entire discussion started because you commented on Yst's initial post that all of the negative hype was overblown. You may not have directly said that the doom of the computer RPG was at hand, but you have been, and here I quote verbatim et literatim (again):

...

Actually my point to Volourn here comes basically down to that developers change their game-developing style upon changing platforms in order to reflect the desires of the target market. And this has been almost exclusively the PC RPG company making games for the console rather than the other way around. This may or may not signify a push for more console RPGs at the expense of PC ones.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I also answered more than one of the questions you posed. I see you ignored that as well. My, your mother wouldn't be pleased with your manners. "

[EnderAndrew]

I believe Morrowind supports the 853x480p resolution on the XBox. It's not 800x600, but it isn't a huge step down either. It looks pretty decent on the TV.

 

You can install PC Morrowind mods on the XBox version if you have a hacked XBox and know what you're doing.

[metadigital]

The most worrisome thing in the RPG genre for me right now is sky-rocketing production costs.  I don't want a gaming culture wherein you can't sell a story-focused game if it costs less than $10 Million to make. 

 

And one major reason for those sky-rocketing production costs seems to be the apparent need developers and publishers feel to make RPGs more cinematic.  More like feature films.  This has hit the FPS genre as well mind you, with games like Mafia and Max Payne putting gameplay in an overtly cinematic context.  Small developers can't afford to self-publish a game which is also a hollywood blockbuster and if big publishers don't want to pick up RPG titles without these high budget aspects, this could be a real problem for conventional RPGs.  If small developers can't succeed because their Roleplaying Game doesn't look like it could double as the next Michael Bay flick, then I am worried.  But I hope that small and indie dev studios are able to keep their titles in distribution as well as on the shelves (for however long shelves continue to be necessary to game distribution) despite these changes.  We'll just have to wait and see.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[1]Exactly.. we have bigger dev studios like Bioware that have enough money to make real western RPGs that are able to keep up with the demand for improved graphics (at the present) but keep in mind that they are also making console RPGs now[2]. Now they have to contend with a new fanbase with an established preference for JRPG-style gaming[3]. If studios like Bioware then feel pressure to gradually conform to the JRPG console standard, that means the end of the console as a viable alternative for western RPG gaming[4]. This possibility worries me.

 

This only leaves the very small dev studios left. And if the small dev studios don't have enough in their pockets to keep up with the rising graphical standards, then the western RPG market could very well hit a dark age[5].

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here's what's wrong with your deductive reasoning:

1. Exactly? You are drawing a totally different inference! Yst is talking about demanding graphics, and you are talking about JRPG-like constraints on PC games!

All pears are green.

The fruit in front of me is green; therefore this apple is a pear.

2. This has been your main conclusion throughout the thread: Computer Developers (and Publishers) who diversify into a market that has less technical hurdles and more users will result in the abandonment of the PC market as "too hard". Again, you may draw this conclusion, but I think you are catastrophising.

3. This is where I draw a distinction: why are there "two markets"? Why does one group only like one type of RPG? Why are there not more people like GoA, and most people who have contributed to this and most threads on these fora, or me?

4. Why? Because all the people who like occidental RPGs will suddenly not want to buy them anymore? Today: Morrowind, tomorrow: FFXVI?

5. Why do independent developers have to buy into the $10M minimum investment in a game? There is a thriving indie film scene, there always has been a thriving indie computer development scene. I just bought some games that were published half-a-decade ago, in direct preference to all the other "graphically superior" games that have been published in the meantime.

 

Summary: the sky is not falling.

[metadigital]

I believe Morrowind supports the 853x480p resolution on the XBox.  It's not 800x600, but it isn't a huge step down either.  It looks pretty decent on the TV.

 

You can install PC Morrowind mods on the XBox version if you have a hacked XBox and know what you're doing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Except that, given adequate hardware, you can run Morrowind on resolutions of 1600x1200.

[alanschu]

But that requires a video card that sells for the price of a console

[EnderAndrew]

But most insist that computer RPGs can't run on consoles. People insist that console RPGs won't be as long, have as much depth or complexity.

 

People talk about the games being dumbed down, not looking as good. I'll argue all day long that PC hardware is superior right now, that very soon I'd go for a next-gen console over a PC. It will provide superior results for a fraction of the cost.

[alanschu]

Regarding length, I find FF7 to be one of the longest games I've ever played.

[metadigital]

But most insist that computer RPGs can't run on consoles.  People insist that console RPGs won't be as long, have as much depth or complexity.

 

People talk about the games being dumbed down, not looking as good.  I'll argue all day long that PC hardware is superior right now, that very soon I'd go for a next-gen console over a PC.  It will provide superior results for a fraction of the cost.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... for a fraction of the duration, and none of the upgrade paths ...

[alanschu]

Consoles always have the cost trump card however.

[metadigital]

I was going to post some disparaging comment about getting what you pay for ("), but instead I will be adult and submit that I certainly don't mind what the cost of an item (within reason, of course) as long as it is good value.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Regarding length, I find FF7 to be one of the longest games I've ever played.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's only because the boredom makes it feel longer.

[Musopticon?]

And breeding chocobos and all the sidetracks make it seem gigantic.

[alanschu]

Well, people count the side games in Baldur's Gate 2 as well....

[Musopticon?]

Nitpicker