Kotor 3: Ideas and Suggestions

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

1. Or poor quality.

2. Which is why K2 can now be bought in the bargain bin.

3. I see. Welcome to the Fourth Reich, where only those who have a pecuniary stake in something may comment. Line up all the historians against the wall, as they were not part of the events they profess to know all about.

4. Co-incidentally, we are complaining that quality is not improving. Can we see a correlation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1. Entirely subjective. You certainly couldnt call Zelda poor quality when it comes to production values.

2. So can Jade Empire and it's not as old as KOTOR II and scored 99% on IGN go figure. The biggest culprit is overordering and the fact that people now know that things WILL end up in the bargain bin and hold off purchase.

3. It sure would save on spam

4. There are good quality games and there are bad quality games much like always. The only difference is that its getting more and more expensive to make them and your only avenue of profit is to mass market them.

[metadigital]

[1]At least be civil to him.

 

[2]Heres a news flash while I actually agree about the importance of good writing you still havn[']t demonstrated it's feasability in your "revolutionary vision".

 

[3]However some people equally dont give "flying kick at a donut" about writing and want hooded robes and more hilts. The Irony is that would have much more grab value than good writing 

 

[4]I'm willing to bet there are more of them that there are of you so I know where my publishing funds would go.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. I was being civil. I am being targeted unfairly; unfairly because you have made just as many posts as I have, yet I am the culprit.

 

2. I see, so the forum according the ShadowPaladin makes the imposition that all posters, from now on, must produce a costed feasibility statement for all their suggestions.

 

Actually, I have given a decent top-level design spec, you just chose to argue about economics and other things beyond your comprehension, instead.

 

3. I see. That would explain why the K1 mods for hilts and hoods are more popular that the sequel.

[Dark Moth]

Yup.  You win Metadigital.  Everyone else is wrong and you are right.  Frankly, i'm not going to waste anymore time with you.  The only thing you've succeeded in doing is making an as* out of yourself.  Here is what your posts for the last 6 pages have amounted to:

 

[snip http://www.sci.fi/~jpoyry/huijarit/spam.jpg ]

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I have engaged in healthy exchange of views with a fellow in a democratic forum. You, on the other hand, have resorted to bullying tactics when you didn't get your way, and finally, the last bastion of the illiterate, the insult.

 

Congratulations! Here's an idea, why don't you actually post something useful, rather than attack me. Because I promise you, you won't win that fight.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I tried posting something useful. I posted something that had to do with K3 and then tried to get you to stop arguing (big mistake). And then you go and mock me for doing both. You're the one who stepped so low into bullying, and you're the one who hasn't really been posting anything constructive. You've been spamming for the last 6 pages about something that shouldn't have even went this far. Personally, I wouldn't have cared if you did this in the "Way off topic" forum, but you chose to do it here. Threads have been locked for doing what you're doing. I tried being civil, but you clearly didn't want to be.

Edited July 4, 2005 by Mothman

[Dark Moth]

Oh - and i'm not saying you are soley the culprit for this argument. You were the one who decided to attack me first, not ShadowPaladin, so what do you expect me to do? I wasn't the one who attacked you first, it was the other way around.

[metadigital]

1. Entirely subjective. You certainly couldnt call Zelda poor quality when it comes to production values.

2. So can Jade Empire and it's not as old as KOTOR II and scored 99% on IGN go figure. The biggest culprit is overordering and the fact that people now know that things WILL end up in the bargain bin and hold off purchase.

3. It sure would save on spam

4. There are good quality games and there are bad quality games much like always. The only difference is that its getting more and more expensive to make them and your only avenue of profit is to mass market them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. Partially true. But what, exactly, did you like about Zelda, again. Surely not the unfeasible and pesky writing. "

 

2. Except that games that prove themselves, like Half-Life 2 are still at top price. So I guess there is something that the other games aren't doing. I wonder what that is? And I wonder what is the best bang-for-buck ? Writing, perhaps? You seem to be arguing that writing is some sort of out-of-control expense, akin to creating a new graphics engine. It's not. You can stop at any time, if you wish (look at K2, it was half-writtten).

3. Only if you adhered to it to, Mein F

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

1. I was being civil. I am being targeted unfairly; unfairly because you have made just as many posts as I have, yet I am the culprit.

 

2. I see, so the forum according the ShadowPaladin makes the imposition that all posters, from now on, must produce a costed feasibility statement for all their suggestions.

 

Actually, I have given a decent top-level design spec, you just chose to argue about economics and other things beyond your comprehension, instead.

 

3. I see. That would explain why the K1 mods for hilts and hoods are more popular that the sequel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

maybe , but I also tend to be more civil, take that however you like.

 

Well since your arguing with me then I require evidence. Especially when what you say flies in the face of all my experience and common sense.

 

They are clearly not beyond my comprehension. They are also backed up with facts and examples game prices have remained more or less static for years. I'm not particularly bothered by your lack of civility though others may be.

 

I dont do mods. But here is why hoods and hilts would have more grab value.

 

Writer " We have written the most fantastic story ever"

Buyer - "Well thats nice but how do I know that"?

 

Designer " KOTOR III has hooded robes, and 10 different saber hilts to choose from"

Buyer " Wow that's cool I can't wait to see that".

 

The difference is that the first is entirely subjective and woe to you if a major reviewer thinks your story skinks after making such a big deal out of it.

 

The second is content, everyone can see content and they know what it is. The only way you can get into trouble over content is by not including it after making the promises.

 

As a designer I'd tend to dismiss you as more trouble than you are worth and look for the

[metadigital]

Oh - and i'm not saying you are soley the culprit for this argument.  You were the one who decided to attack me first, not ShadowPaladin, so what do you expect me to do?  I wasn't the one who attacked you first, it was the other way around.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, actually, in point of fact, I didn't "attack you", I pointed out that if you had read the previous six parts of this loooooooooong thread, you would have seen your idea expressed before.

[Dark Moth]

Oh - and i'm not saying you are soley the culprit for this argument.  You were the one who decided to attack me first, not ShadowPaladin, so what do you expect me to do?  I wasn't the one who attacked you first, it was the other way around.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, actually, in point of fact, I didn't "attack you", I pointed out that if you had read the previous six parts of this loooooooooong thread, you would have seen your idea expressed before.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, if you weren't, then express your thoughts better so people don't interpret it that way. And besides, I don't always take time to read every single post in the thread, so I may have skipped over an idea. While that may have been my fault, you didn't have to mock me for it. If you weren't, it sure sounded like it.

 

And for the third time, this is not the place to be arguing about what you're discussing. As I said, I didn't care that you two were arguing, just that you were doing it in an inappropriate forum.

Edited July 4, 2005 by Mothman

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

1. Partially true. But what, exactly, did you like about Zelda, again. Surely not the unfeasible and pesky writing.  "

 

2.  Except that games that prove themselves, like Half-Life 2 are still at top price. So I guess there is something that the other games aren't doing. I wonder what that is? And I wonder what is the best bang-for-buck ? Writing, perhaps? You seem to be arguing that writing is some sort of out-of-control expense, akin to creating a new graphics engine. It's not. You can stop at any time, if you wish (look at K2, it was half-writtten).

3. Only if you adhered to it to, Mein F

[213374U]

That's some quality trolling guys, keep it up. I bet none of you has to wake up early tomorrow.

 

 

The word 'ass' is not censored on this forum Mothman.

Want some popcorn? ^_^

[metadigital]

[1]Well since your arguing with me then I require evidence. Especially when what you say flies in the face of all my experience and common sense.

 

[2]They are clearly not beyond my comprehension. They are also backed up with facts and examples game prices have remained more or less static for years. I'm not particularly bothered by your lack of civility though others may be.

 

[3]I dont do mods. But here is why hoods and hilts would have more grab value.

 

Writer " We have written the most fantastic story ever"

Buyer - "Well thats nice but how do I know that"?

 

Designer " KOTOR III has hooded robes, and 10 different saber hilts to choose from"

Buyer " Wow that's cool I can't wait to see that".

 

The difference is that the first is entirely subjective and woe to you if a major reviewer thinks your story skinks after making such a big deal out of it.

 

The second is content, everyone can see content and they know what it is. The only way you can get into trouble over content is by not including it after making the promises.

 

[4]As a designer I'd tend to dismiss you as more trouble than you are worth and look for the

[Nartwak]

Want some popcorn?  ^_^

[Dark Moth]

Want some popcorn?  ^_^

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Can I have some? I think I'm gonna sit this one out until it blows over. :cool:

[metadigital]

1.Zelda isnt released yet I wont know anything about the story or the writing till I actually play it. Which cant make it a criteria for purchase. The gameplay is good though at least of the demo so far. But you can apply that to any other big name title, they all retail in the region of

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

4. Why would good writing stink? What is wrong with you? Why do you have this poor perception of writing skills? It is not that desperately difficult to write solid and dependable work. It is only marginally more difficult to write very well. And I really don't think you are getting the central point here, writing is what holds the whole game together; it is the skeleton, the muscles, the intestines and the brain. you are placing a nice pair of shoes and pretty haircut above a healthy circulatory system!

 

I just don't know how to write this any clearer for you. Writing is paramount. If you don't realise that, then you don't have a firm grip on the subject at hand, which is odd, because you tend to admit its importance when it suits your argument.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

your completely missing the point. I never said good writing stinks I said good writing has no grab value which is a big difference. Its too subjective for one, even so called experts cant agree what good writing is most of the time. And it's something you cant experience without playing the game.

 

Whether or not a game has good writing is something only the psychics would know without playing it through first. by which point they already have your

[metadigital]

That's some quality trolling guys, keep it up. I bet none of you has to wake up early tomorrow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks.

 

I can keep this up for days.

[metadigital]

Well, if you weren't, then express your thoughts better so people don't interpret it that way.  And besides, I don't always take time to read every single post in the thread, so I may have skipped over an idea.  While that may have been my fault, you didn't have to mock me for it.  If you weren't, it sure sounded like it.

 

And for the third time, this is not the place to be arguing about what you're discussing.  As I said, I didn't care that you two were arguing, just that you were doing it in an inappropriate forum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, don't be so ready to jump to conclusions.

 

I know I must be in the minority, but I read all of a thread before posting. And this, being part SEVEN, has been a long time writing, and I have had to read through some unworthy drivel, without once making a snide remark.

 

The Search function is also your friend, even if you don't follow normal netiquette and lurk first.

 

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

1. So you'll buy it because you're a fanboy.

2. So, doesn't that break your rule then?

3. And I am countering it with examples of poor quality providing ever-deminishing returns and insisting that writing is paramount, and that good writing will return more value for money than any other investment (up to the normal laws of deminishing returns).

4. If it becomes a boxshifting exercise, it will consume itself. And the average age of the gaming demographic is mid-30s, and rising, so I hardly qualify for my pension just yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1. I'll buy it because I enjoyed the demo. Unless your psychic then you cant possibly know anything story related in advance anyway so thats hardly a reason to call me a fanboy.

 

2. No but it does break yours. Pokemon is about as basic as writing gets. Writing obviously has little to do with the longevity of Pokemon. With newer Pokemons at a lower price it supports that games are dropping in price at retail (new).

 

3. Please explain this to me then. How can you know how good the writing is before you actually play the game ? Because once they have your cash I doubt they care overmuch what you do with the game. Flashy graphics will always shift more units than good writing.

 

4. Last I heard it was 28 on the PC and 24 on consoles it tends to change depending on the source used. Regardless in a couple of years I'll be much more interested in buying family games that I can play with my kids.

[Dark Moth]

Well, if you weren't, then express your thoughts better so people don't interpret it that way.  And besides, I don't always take time to read every single post in the thread, so I may have skipped over an idea.  While that may have been my fault, you didn't have to mock me for it.  If you weren't, it sure sounded like it.

 

And for the third time, this is not the place to be arguing about what you're discussing.  As I said, I didn't care that you two were arguing, just that you were doing it in an inappropriate forum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, don't be so ready to jump to conclusions.

 

I know I must be in the minority, but I read all of a thread before posting. And this, being part SEVEN, has been a long time writing, and I have had to read through some unworthy drivel, without once making a snide remark.

 

The Search function is also your friend, even if you don't follow normal netiquette and lurk first.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree I should've lurked, but you still didn't have to make the snide remark you did. It was an honest mistake, and at least i was contributing to the topic. If you wanted to tell me that it was an old idea, you could have at least done it in a less spiteful manner. What's amusing me most is that you two are fighting to the death over such a trivial topic and in the wrong forum. Go on. Make some sort of snide comeback (and if you weren't going to, I apologize). Me, I'm going to sit this one out.

 

[goes back to popcorn] :cool:

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I just don't know how to write this any clearer for you. Writing is paramount. If you don't realise that, then you don't have a firm grip on the subject at hand, which is odd, because you tend to admit its importance when it suits your argument.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Writing might be paramount to you. I consider it important but hardly paramount. And a look around here will tell you that some people place it way down on the priority scale below hooded robes and hilts.

 

The point is it's not a universaly truth, it's just what you find important and as such carries no more weight than what someone else might find important.

[metadigital]

[Y]ou[']r[e] completely missing the point. [1]I never said good writing stinks I said good writing has no grab value[;] which is a big difference. It[']s too subjective for one, even so called experts can[']t agree what good writing is most of the time. [2]And it's something you can[']t experience without playing the game.

 

[3]Whether or not a game has good writing is something only the psychics would know without playing it through first. by which point they already have your

[metadigital]

I just don't know how to write this any clearer for you. Writing is paramount. If you don't realise that, then you don't have a firm grip on the subject at hand, which is odd, because you tend to admit its importance when it suits your argument.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Writing might be paramount to you. I consider it important but hardly paramount. And a look around here will tell you that some people place it way down on the priority scale below hooded robes and hilts.

 

The point is it's not a universaly truth, it's just what you find important and as such carries no more weight than what someone else might find important.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hooray!

 

We've reduced the "everybody knows you're wrong" and "your ideas are totally unfeasible" to a question of preference and a decision based on opinion, and equally valid (by implication).

 

I maintain you are underestimating the role of writing in general, and in a game in particular, but I am willing to let it go if you desist from attacking my opinion as invalid.

 

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

1. But that is patently false. A good game, e.g. the adventure Grim Fandango has writing of sufficiently high calibre to attract my purchase, even this meany years later.

 

2. Good writing makes the game. Poor writing is self-evident (I assume you agree with that); good writing makes a game worth playing. Again. And again. Even when you know the plot. Even if there is no variation in the narrative. So just think how a small (relative to the total) investment in writing would add to the draw of a game. And instead of bankrupting a company's good name, making it, instead.

 

Surely even you can't disagree with that.

 

3. Game Reviewers, I'd like to introduce you to ShadowPaladin, ShadowPaladin, these are the reviewers who get copies of games before or as they are released (which is usually the first clue as to the quality).

 

4. Strawman. "Most of the market", "features" and "writing" are all totally fluid concepts in the context you have written. You failed your own Nazi rule.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1.And it being a tenner had nothing to do with that ? How did you find out about the writing anyway? Presumably through third parties or did you just get lucky?

 

2.Your trying to apply your standards universally again. That might be what makes it for you. For others it could easily be having a different saber hilt.

Once I know the plot I tend to shelve the game. The only thing that can change that is really good gameplay that I enjoy for it's own sake. Replaying a game dosnt generate any revenue. The last thing you want is people playing an old game after you release a new one.

 

3.If your willing to accept other peoples opinions on things.Me, I tend to take reviews with a healthy pinch of salt. All your doing is accepting another persons subjective opinion on the quality of the writing , which may or may not agree with yours.

 

4. Eyecandy sells fact of life. Dosnt really matter if you consider it a sad fact or happy one.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

We've reduced the "everybody knows you're wrong" and "your ideas are totally unfeasible" to a question of preference and a decision based on opinion, and equally valid (by implication).

 

I maintain you are underestimating the role of writing in general, and in a game in particular, but I am willing to let it go if you desist from attacking my opinion as invalid.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Writing still has no grab value. If you can demonstrate otherwise please do. I'm quite interested since I'm a story fan, albeit one who is tempered with a healthy does of realism about what sells games.

[metadigital]

1.And it being a tenner had nothing to do with that ? How did you find out about the writing anyway? Presumably through third parties or did you just get lucky?

 

2.Your trying to apply your standards universally again. That might be what makes it for you. For others it could easily be having a different saber hilt.

Once I know the plot I tend to shelve the game. The only thing that can change that is really good gameplay that I enjoy for it's own sake. Replaying a game dosnt generate any revenue. The last thing you want is people playing an old game after you release a new one.

 

3.If your willing to accept other peoples opinions on things.Me, I tend to take reviews with a healthy pinch of salt. All your doing is accepting another persons subjective opinion on the quality of the writing , which may or may not agree with yours.

 

4. Eyecandy sells fact of life. Dosnt really matter if you consider it a sad fact or happy one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. Sure the price affected my purchase. Why woudn't it? And I found out about it by reading reviews and taking recommendations. Are you going to include arguments about trust relationships in your voodoo economic model?

 

2. I see. So you would play K1 as many times as there were different lightsabre hilts, as opposed to the