Discussion on Morals

[FaramirK]

"Very Good Argument", Darth Sirius? Sadly not...

 

Then I grew up.

 

Many people more mature than you hold abortion to be wrong. Do not create the false premise that believing abortion is wrong denotes immaturity.

 

I realized that doing what is right is not always doing what is popular.

 

That is true, but if you are suggesting that being opposed to abortion is popular, you are again wrong.

 

There is a debate longstanding of when it is murder and when it is not.  I can accept the definition of when the fetus is able to live on it's own outside the womb.

 

Babies cannot survive on their own - even after they are outside the womb, unlike many animals. Your point is redundant.

 

Statement: "I can accept the definition of when the fetus is able to live on it's own outside the womb."

 

Your logic suggests that a human being is only able to be murdered if it can take care of itself...try and use that in a court of law...see what happens. Maybe you just left out an or?

 

A) Many of you have written about abortion being contraception.  Abortion is painful.  Abortion is mentally exhausting.  Abortion is nauseating.  Why don't you go to a clinic.  Why don't you see a woman come out in tears, barely able to walk clutching her stomach from the pain and the mental anguish of emptiness.  And preach some more about the ease in which people have this procedure done.

 

B)

It is easier to judge the actions of others because as long as there are these child murdering monsters out there you feel better about who you are.  Point the finger and avoid the mirror.

C)

I also believe that our world is overpopulated, we have hunger problems, health care problems, homeless problems, unemployment, and poverty.

 

A) Your description of abortion is accurate. Much better to have the child and either raise it or put it up for adoption.

 

B) Like you are judging anyone who disagrees with you as Immature, Arrogant Self-absorbed villans?

 

C) Abortion is not the answer for any of the social ills you mentioned.

 

Sure from your personal computer that your parents could afford (or for about 10% of you you bought yourself).  Sure you can preach about how some people have managed to struggle as a single mother and put themselves through school ... but you know, its one thing to claim a mother's hardships are her own fault, it is another to force an unwanted life to be birthed into the world and live in a state of misery, loneliness, and discontent.

 

90% of the people on this forum use compters they didn't pay for? How did you come upon this statistic? Or are you simply using sensasional and emotive slander in an attempt to sound like you control the moral high-ground? The hardships of single motherhood say two things...First: Beware of not respecting the possible outcome of careless, casual sex. Second: Choose who your sexual partners wisely, because many men will leave you high and dry if you happen to get pregnant.

 

I don't feel abortion is great, but it is a legal option and better than many alternatives.  I don't want twelve year olds raising children ... the ones being raised by twenty year olds are bad enough.  There are better option, but is it morally wrong to do the legal thing, for the right reasons? ... don't judge the choices another makes because from your personal paradise life is easy.

 

Bold Text: Who does?

 

More sensational, irrational crowd-playing.

 

To me, the moral corruption is the ability to spit on others without putting yourself in their shoes.

 

Like condeming anyone and everyone who is against abortion as immature Nazi's?

 

And no, don't come back and say "but Susy Q from down the street was able to ... " no.  that doesn't count because Susy Q wasn't in everyone elses shoes.  The ability to make a choice on what you think is best for you in your current situation, that is the gift and curse of humanity.  Everyone has darkness in there path somewhere.  I have never known a person who hasn't done something they weren't proud of.

 

Compare your highlighted statement with something you said above:

 

your personal paradise life

 

I'm sorry, but I find your arguments overly hostile and flawed.

[Darth Sirius]

"Very Good Argument", Darth Sirius? Sadly not...

Again another very good argument, let me make what I said before clear, I was congratulating him/her on his/her arguments as in as much as the wordsmithing, not the subject matter at hand.

[Drakron]

Reguardless FaramirK its always going to be something you never experience.

 

Its not a argument I like to use but its very good argument ... its very easy to pass judgement over others over things we will never experience.

[FaramirK]

Again another very good argument, let me make what I said before clear, I was congratulating him on his/her arguments as in as much as the wordsmithing, not the subject matter at hand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But thats just it...the argument was fundamentally flawed, and many of the points were redundant, as was his choice of wording.

[Darth Sirius]

redundant, as was his choice of wording.

We all have our opinions, and I reserve the right to have mine.

[FaramirK]

Reguardless FaramirK its always going to be something you never experience.

 

Its not a argument I like to use but its very good argument ... its very easy to pass judgement over others over things we will never experience.

 

Not being able to experience something from one perspective does not negate your ability to make a judgement on it Drakron.

 

Bolded Text: That statement is true, but you have no right or reason to assume I am guilty of this.

 

Besides, your point is just a straw-man argument.

[FaramirK]

redundant, as was his choice of wording.

We all have our opinions, and I reserve the right to have mine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, you do. But hopefully my critique of his post will convince you that his argument was not valid.

 

If not, oh well.

[Drakron]

Human justice is flawed, divine justice is not.

[Reveilled]

Faramir and I couldn't be more opposite in our positions on abortion, but even so I'm inclined to agree that Faramir is correct in his assessment of Jayque's argument. It was sensationalist, insulting, and childishly confrontational.

 

EDIT: Hey! What happened to Faramir's post, just before mine? Just up an disappeared.

[FaramirK]

EDIT: Hey!  What happened to Faramir's post, just before mine?  Just up an disappeared.

 

I removed it...I didn't really understand Drakron's point - it seemed like a strange thing for an atheist to say (I think thats what he said he was... ), and my reply-post was just argumentative anyway...

[Drakron]

I removed it...I didn't really understand Drakron's point - it seemed like a strange thing for an atheist to say (I think thats what he said he was...  ), and my reply-post was just argumentative anyway...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You sould really not assume I am a atheist ... or that I am not.

[FaramirK]

You sould really not assume I am a atheist ... or that I am not.

 

I thought you had said you were in a different topic...I may be mistaken.

[Darth Sirius]

But hopefully my critique of his post will convince you that his argument was not valid.

Believe me, I am with you on this (Please look back at my earlier posts) I simply took the time to congratulate him on an argument (I thought) was well put across.

[Reveilled]

I removed it...I didn't really understand Drakron's point - it seemed like a strange thing for an atheist to say (I think thats what he said he was...  ), and my reply-post was just argumentative anyway...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You sould really not assume I am a atheist ... or that I am not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Okay, rather than assume...I'll ask. What are you, in a religious sense?

[Drakron]

Complicated.

 

I do think the idea of a God is possible (and conforting) but I am not willing to jump into any organized religion and even less of looking at facts and throw then away because they dont fit in some creation "history".

[Darth Sirius]

Complicated.

 

I do think the idea of a God is possible (and conforting) but I am not willing to jump into any organized religion and even less of looking at facts and throw then away because they dont fit in some creation "history".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very much agreed.

[Jayque]

Complicated.

 

I do think the idea of a God is possible (and conforting) but I am not willing to jump into any organized religion and even less of looking at facts and throw then away because they dont fit in some creation "history".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Agnostic

[mkreku]

Ah, the one-in-a-million sob story...a popular but flawed debate technique...very well, I will amuse you:

More sensational, irrational crowd-playing.

I'm sorry, but I find your arguments overly hostile and flawed.

Hey, FaramirK, it is obvious by now that you think very highly of yourself (to the point that you think you can 'review' other posts and judge them somehow), but how about you, yourself, stop being hostile and derogatory? It would surely help the discussion.

 

Babies cannot survive on their own - even after they are outside the womb, unlike many animals.  Your point is redundant.

 

Statement:  "I can accept the definition of when the fetus is able to live on it's own outside the womb."

 

Your logic suggests that a human being is only able to be murdered if it can take care of itself...try and use that in a court of law...see what happens.  Maybe you just left out an or?

Also, as this quote clearly indicates, you don't have to act dumber than you are. Or is it really that bad, that you missed the point of what he was saying? "Babies cannot survive on their own".. Yeah, stating-the-obvious to make the other part in a discussion seem stupid is also "a popular but flawed debate technique" (in your own words) but that's only avoiding the subject in a clumsy and annoying way. Please don't believe for a second that your own "debate techniques" aren't "flawed" in the eyes of others, because they're just as good/bad as anyone elses in this (rather silly) thread. Including this one.

 

The point is that somewhere must we draw the line for when a clump of cells becomes a human being. Is a sperm a human being? Then you kill millions every time you play with yourself, so that can't be it. Is the simple combination of the female egg and the male sperm a human? Then nature is a cruel murderer, because lots of those combinations fail at first too. By the time we're able to save a prematurely born child from dying is, in my opinion, a good way of drawing the line between a fetus and a human being, and that is, obviously, what Jayque was referring to in the first place.

[FaramirK]

Hey, FaramirK, it is obvious by now that you think very highly of yourself (to the point that you think you can 'review' other posts and judge them somehow),

 

It's called debate. My quoting of his post and answering it is a part of debate - it is called rebuttal.

 

Yeah, stating-the-obvious to make the other part in a discussion seem stupid is also "a popular but flawed debate technique"

 

I was over-emphasising the stupidity of his illustration - and its not a flawed debating technique...it correctly invalidates one of his points.

 

Is a sperm a human being?

 

No.

 

Is the simple combination of the female egg and the male sperm a human? Then nature is a cruel murderer, because lots of those combinations fail at first too.

 

Yes, it is. Yes, nature seems cruel to us emotive beings. No, nature is not capable of morality. Yes, your point is, like Jayque's, redundant.

 

By the time we're able to save a prematurely born child from dying is, in my opinion, a good way of drawing the line between a fetus and a human being, and that is, obviously, what Jayque was referring to in the first place.

 

No, that wasn't his point. His point was "if you think abortion is murder, your a cold, uncaring, immature villian."

 

But this isn't just a thread about abortion...would any of you be willing to sacrifce some modern conveniences if a green governemt came to power and suggested it, like better public transport and cutting down on multiple cars per family?

[Jayque]

 

Then I grew up.

 

Many people more mature than you hold abortion to be wrong. Do not create the false premise that believing abortion is wrong denotes immaturity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

-I am not. I am stating that as I grew, not just in maturity, but in life experience. that I saw the world in a greater aspect. I am not equating immaturity to the belief of immorality in abortion ... I am equating immaturity to the egocentric stance that creates a one morality for all based on ones own small glimpse of the world. I am not stating ALL posters that have argued abortion is a moral inferno are immature. I am arguing that there is a strong degree of egocentriscm that takes place when your world and circumstances (or those of someone you know) are placed on the world at large as a standard.

 

 

I realized that doing what is right is not always doing what is popular.

 

That is true, but if you are suggesting that being opposed to abortion is popular, you are again wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

-Actually I am stating that if you go back and do a count on posts there will be a HUGE difference in the number Against vs. the number for. I am stating that just because and idea sounds great (I mean really in all seriousness who wants to "murder a baby" it sounds dreadful and it is used to shock and scare people into taking a stance against abortion) doesn't make it right. I mean how many demostrations have you seen in front of a clinic were people are patting girls on the back, and throwing confetti? It doesn't happen. The only time (generally there are exceptions I will admit) that you see pro-choice vocal is when it comes time to debate the legality (and by the way not the morality) of a women's right to choose. Where as it is fine to throw a party in front of abortion clinic and all but stone ... well they have blown some up, so I guess stoning is a possiblity ... the patrons of the clinic. Which is vocally more popular?

 

 

There is a debate longstanding of when it is murder and when it is not.

[FaramirK]

-I am not.

 

Ok, if that wasn't your intention, then so be it. Call it a misunderstanding.

 

Which is vocally more popular?

 

In my opinion, pro-abortion is far more vocally popular than an anti-abortion stance, especially here in Russia.

 

Ibut to clear up your question as bluntly as possible - I meant live biologically self-sufficient and not live a happy abandoned care free life.

 

A baby is not self-sufficient. It is helpless. The court of law illustration was in slight mockery of your implied statement that babies are self-sufficient and unborn infants are not. In my mind, they are both helpless, and very much alive.

 

A - Ok so...

 

I think that live is sacred, and that society should treasure it more than anything. Society should take better care of orphans, for sure.

 

B) I was adressing the posts not the side.

 

Ok.

 

C) I did not say abortion was the answer to any of those problems, but the illegality of it would, without doubt or question in anyone's mind, increase all of the above. (some not as much as others)

 

I didn't say you did, I just said that those reasons were not justification for abortion.

 

My daughter was unexpected and my wife took pills for three years without ever missing one.  Never the less my daughter was conceived.  Now we chose to keep her because of our circumstances, but I was in a loving relationship with my wife and I had the money to afford a child.  If we would have been on the edge of divorce, if I would have been laid off like everyone else in my industry at the time, if I would have been unable to afford diapers or provide my wife adequate health care (and don't even mention free clinics and health centers because I have been to a few for help with my sister and I honestly feel I could give better medical attention in the kitchen of a Taco Bell.)

 

Once again, I think the sanctity of life is more important than personal convenience, but we could argue this forever.

 

no woman should be forced to risk her life, especially if she thought she was protected.

 

I actually mentioned this earlier. While I would advise against abortion, the right must remain with the woman. In this case, no one has the right to force a woman to do anything.

 

and yet I am being judgemental right?  You are all but calling these mothers harlets and basically telling them to suffer for their sins.  That's frelled up man, on so many levels.

 

Well, sin is a religious issue, so lets not go there, because no religion should be forced on anyone, imo. I will say that thay have to suffer the consequences of their actions, and not try and erase it.

 

No ... and I didn't.  I am not condemning EVERYONE who has a difference of opinion.  In fact I respect several people personally and academically who view it as morally wrong.  My post was directed specifically at a certain type of argunment JUST the, as you put it, "immature Nazi's".

 

Again, if that is the case, very well. I just didn't think you came across that clearly as to who was your target.

 

As a side note, you only have a limited number of quotes per post, so you can split you post in two and the quote boxs wll appear - didn't know this myself until recently.

[WITHTEETH]

It doesn't matter whether a man is dead or not.  Once his income is taxed, it should safe from further taxation.  The death tax is simply a punitive tax waged on folks for no other reason than they have made and saved enough wealth to leave to their children.

 

The death tax doesn't tax corpses.  It taxes the children of corpses.

 

Frankly, I don't care if folks leave everything to the family cat, the wealth should not be taxed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This gets into how all men are not born equal. their either born rich or poor. or middle class, which bush seems to destroy - my opinion.

[Darth Sirius]

This gets into how all men are not born equal. their either born rich or poor. or middle class, which bush seems to destroy - my opinion.

LoL, try living in England (unless you do :"> ) people with money are called 'lady' blah blah, or 'lord' such and such' that nonsense etc. etc.

Which I would refuse to call them, simply because, maybe alot of people think so, but money does not buy you status over ANYONE! IMHO. I personally class my status as what I have to offer society and the economy, and the role I may serve in the greater good of the country (which regularly gets undermined by politicians, but thats a different story) Unlike the so called 'upper classes.'

 

Maybe I do sound bitter, and I don't hold it agains't people who have been born to that (As I hope they wouldn't to me for being 'working class') but putting a higher value on one against another who has worked a hell of alot harder for the greater good is disgusting if you ask me.

 

I'm interested to know what non-British people think of the 'class system' here.

[cewekeds]

Yes the corspe will not be taxed but the income the kids get from the estate will get taxed. All money has been taxed at one time. If I give somebody 10,000+ gift the person who receives it gets taxed for it.

 

How come people for abortion because all life if percise also for the death penealty. Air on the side of life my a$$ Bush who signed the death of more people then any governor in 20 years. courts are flawwed because you don't get judge on facts but how people see you. Women get to choose what sacrifice they are willing to make to give birth. You never know who the fetus will be the next hitler, bin laden, saddam or Ted Bundy. The best solution is to learn how to take the fetus out of the womens body and find another why to grow it. At the very less can we please study it and see if we can save lives with the remains. Maybe thats gods plan to give us tools to save others people life. Wait I know we shouldn't care about the people whos mothers decide having a child wasn't a bad idea but had problems paying for them. Do I know I'm happier being born not really since I don't know what the other choice would lead to maybe a free pass to heaven. maybe more women would be willing to give birth if more men stepped up to the plate. How about for ever father who doesn't take care of their child they get a vasectomy because allot are repeat offenders.

However I do think women that have abortion need to be educated in birth control and safty measures. Maybe even the fathers of the child should also go to the classes. Kinda like traffic school.

 

Gay rights I support them because it doesn't effect me at all. Well I tend stare when two good looking girls kiss on the street However when I see guys I look away. When I get married I don't see how gays couple effect my commitment to my wife.

As far as adapting I think any couple that can provide a good life and give a child opportunities to have good life and able to love that child should be looked at. Percentage wise more gay people are more educated and have higher incomes then hetro people. Meaning a gay couple probably can give the child a better life style. But kids will make fun of him and his parents. I was raised by a single mother and people made fun of me and her. Guess what I lived through it and probably a better person for it. But I think of those *normal* kids which only a few are. Are they better people for teasing or making fun of people different then them? I realized lifes not fair and people have problems they cannot control without help. Do I know if people choose to be gay I don't think so. You can't help who you fall in love with can you? I never looked at a guy and went man he's sexy. Ok once but I was Drunk and he didn't look like a guy.

 

Morals are fine except everybody has different set. I have three

1. Don't ruin somebodies life if possible.(try not to kill people or get them fired because they messed up my order.)

2. Don't take things that don't belong to me.

3. Treat everybody with kindness and equals. (try to understand their point of veiw.)

[LoneWolf16]

Wow. That's one hell of a long read. You guys are really getting into this Abortion debate, and rightfully so, considering the issue's importance in today's society. (Or lack of importance, if one were to consider the grand scheme of things...the child will eventually perish just the same as an aborted "child", but with a good billion or so memories, sensations, experiences, etc. to take with them into the after-life [or non-existence].)

 

Good points have been made and I understand, for the most part, the views behind what arguments have been presented (Eldar's in particular caught my attention as being a well thought out, strong, and thought-provoking post), and my opinion has been expressed here already by other posters to such an extent that I feel it isn't worth the time to get into.

 

But what the hell, why not.

 

Abortion

 

To me, this is something so personal and dependant upon individual circumstances that a general law one way or the other just isn't acceptable. I don't think it's my right to tell people what they can and cannot do with their bodies.

 

Faramir, I know that you consider human life to be apparent at a very early stage in a fetus' development (or I read something wrong somewhere, and am just assuming so, like a complete fool), but I have to disagree on the grounds that I believe, to be a true human being, there are certain requirements. Capacity for coherent, purposeful thought and awareness of one's surroundings constitute basic humanity to me...

 

Just to get this out of the way, I whole-heartedly endorse sex for recreation. If you don't intend to have a child when you initiate the act, you shouldn't be punished if the condom breaks. Mistakes are made...to err is human and all that.

 

All opinion anyway. Its not as though my, or anybody else's condoning or disapproving of abortion will dictate the actions of that 17-year-old panicking in her bathroom...well, actually, yes it will, if it's the right people, but if she's desperate enough, there's no way to stop her short of heavy chains and a good stone wall.

 

Enjoy dissecting my post, I know I screwed up somewhere