Discussion on Morals

[draakh_kimera]

To be blunt:  It's not the babies fault the mother didn't know how to properly use birth control...she should take responsibility.  Her rights do not extend to killing an inconvienient child.

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I agree with this, but it should be pointed out that even if contraceptives are used properly, there's still a small chance of them not working. I think the figures I read last were something like 1 in 50 for condoms and 1 in a 100 for the morning after pill..

[FaramirK]

To be blunt:  It's not the babies fault the mother didn't know how to properly use birth control...she should take responsibility.  Her rights do not extend to killing an inconvienient child.

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I agree with this, but it should be pointed out that even if contraceptives are used properly, there's still a small chance of them not working

 

Yes, there is. It's a risk you take, and a risk you have to be willing to live with if the dice say you lose...

[Reveilled]

Forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term is a cruel and unusual punishment.

 

In the case of rape, fair enough. But otherwise, I don't see how pregnancy is "cruel and unusual punishment". People should accept their responsibility, not kill someone to cover it up. Life is sacred. What to you is "a bunch of cells" is to another a human life.

 

Forcing someone to grow a parasite inside their body certainly stikes me as cruel and unusual. It requires them to change their lifestyle, causes sickness, and ends in several hours of excruciating pain. The extreme physical pain alone certainly makes it a coropal punishment, and we usually consider things like beatings and floggins cruel and unusual, so why not Labour?

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To be blunt: It's not the babies fault the mother didn't know how to properly use birth control...she should take responsibility. Her rights do not extend to killing an inconvienient child.

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The Child's right to life does not extend to forcing hours of torture on its mother against her will.

 

Frankly, though, I don't think there's any chance we're going to come to an agreement on this.

[WITHTEETH]

Not to long ago in michigan a teenage girl had sex and had gotten pregnant. this girls parents had the same ideals as you do FaramirK. she could not go to her parents for help. she put her bets on her parents disapproving of what she did and didn't want to be a famiy burden. it would have ruined her chances to become a nurse, or atleast make them near impossible.

Next thing you know she asked her boyfriend to beat her stomach with a bat to get out of the pregnancy. she almost lost her life but it worked. do you really want to imprison somebody that bad that they are willing to beat themselves with a bat?

Excuse me if i think of sex as more then just a way to get women pregnant. that it can also be fun.

I dislike the idea of other people imposing there will on others.

If they ban abortion you will see thousands of these.

[Drakron]

Abortion is going to be a tricking issue, there is not even a define stage were we can say a unborn fetus is a human being or just a collection of cells.

 

I leave abortion to each concience, its not my place to say to others what they can or cannot do.

 

And I rather have safe abortion that the kind of crap they subject women because some people (who never will have to make such decision) dont feel "confortable" about it.

[Darth Sirius]

I think people need to value life a little more, look at the human body, the human mind, just take a second to look and see what we are capable of in our moments of genius. Discovering fire, the wheel, etc etc.

 

Then think of it like this YOU have the POWER to create another life, another being in this world of ours, maybe the next Einstein, Mozart, Van Gough, maybe not IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE, that 'collection of cells' has a world of possibillities ahead of it, imagine the amount of eggs in a womans body, realise the chances that one had at life......It finally succeeds, and...You know the rest. Now I am not unsympathetic by any means to anyone who has an unconsenting pregnancy, or wouldn't be able to give the child a decent upbringing or whatever the reason, because I'm not in any way shape or form, abortion should be a valid option for them.

 

What really irritates me is stupid little fools who class abortion as just another form of contraception, which in my book is abhorrent.

[WITHTEETH]

I only notice the people who are against abortion that classify it as a contraception. It makes it sound worse. Like how republicans changed the esate tax to THE DEATH TAX "well if its named the death tax it must be bad". Tricky politicians.Just how partial birth abortion, isnt partial birth.

[Drakron]

I only notice the people who are against abortion that classify it as a contraception.  It makes it sound worse. Like how republicans changed the esate tax to THE DEATH TAX "well if its named the death tax it must be bad".  Tricky politicians.

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Funny enough, me too.

 

And I am european so its looks stupidity knows no national (or continetal) bounds.

[mkreku]

I think the logical way of seeing abortion is the way we do it (according to law) in Sweden. Abortion is legal here until the child is old enough to survive outside his/her mother's womb. Until then, I guess the fetus is not considered as another living, human being. Either that, or because it's not safe for the mother to have an abortion any later than that. Or both.

 

The legal time limit of abortion in Sweden is week 22. After that, you have to give birth to the child. I think they've managed to save children who were born prematurely in week 23, but that 'record' is probably being challenged every day.

[Darth Sirius]

I only notice the people who are against abortion that classify it as a contraception.  It makes it sound worse. Like how republicans changed the esate tax to THE DEATH TAX "well if its named the death tax it must be bad".  Tricky politicians.Just how partial birth abortion, isnt partial birth.

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Let me be a little clearer, I am not against abortion, in the right circumstances, what I mean is (Where I live anyway, it may not apply to all) there are alot of females who don't care if they get pregnant, as they can simply have an abortion if it does occur, which is horrible and what also made me choose the words 'contraception'

[Drakron]

Let me be a little clearer, I am not against abortion, in the right circumstances, what I mean is (Where I live anyway, it may not apply to all) there are alot of females who don't care if they get pregnant, as they can simply have an abortion if it does occur, which is horrible and what also made me choose the words 'contraception'

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Abortion is a expansive medical intervenction that carries risks.

 

It sould not be a regulat contraception method and I dont think many women will see it that way since not only its expensive, it also carries risks and does not protect against AIDS and other sexual transmited diseases.

[Cantousent]

Abortion is such a hot topic for something that is practiced by so small a fraction of the population.

 

Some view abortion as a woman's right to choose. Others view abortion as murder. Of course, still others fall somewhere inbetween the two positions and, perhaps, even beyond either one.

 

I view abortion as an outrage against the body. Nevertheless, isn't eating too much an affront to the body? Isn't drinking too much alcohol? Smoking cigarettes? Drinking caffeine? Depriving oneself of sleep? All of these are, to one degree or another, an "outrage" against the body.

 

I view abortion as an outrage against the soul. Nonetheless, isn't anger, lust, hatred, jealousy, despair, each of them, an outrage against the soul?

 

I hate the very thought of abortion. I'm firmly convinced that the best way to curb abortions is to make it such a source of shame and ridicule in society that the vast majority of women will shudder at the very idea.... that doctors will be reluctant to perform abortions for fear of being a social pariah. ...But such crushing shame must be enforced by the members of society and I preach where I cannot comply.

 

The theoretical women in these threads are making a flippant choice because they want to have an indiscrete and licentious sexual lifestyle. In my experience, most of the women who have had abortions felt compelled by circumstances to do so and were in considerable grief before, during, and after the act. It is a violating experience in which all but the most hardened of women are psychologically effected.

 

Now, I should feel revulsion at such women because, under my theory, they should be shunned. In reality, however, all I see is some poor human being who has suffered twice, once in discovering their unwanted pregnancy and again at feeling compelled to submit to an abortion.

 

So I hate the very idea of abortion? Most assuredly, with a passion that surprises even me. ...But abortions will be performed and I can't, even for the greater good, bring myself to punish the victims of abortion further.

 

Making abortion illegal is simply not feasible, and I wouldn't want to make it so. For one thing, some abortions will be performed regardless of legality. For another thing, it will force women to suffer yet one more indignity as they will be compelled to break the law. Finally, we are better to bring the message in terms of morals rather than laws. I'm WITHTEETH in thinking this is a perfect moral issue.

 

You know, I'd counsel any friend against an abortion. I'd raise a daughter to believe that abortions are not the answer to unwanted pregnancy. I'd raise a daughter to think more of herself than to have a sexual life outside of marriage or at a young age. ...But I would love my daughter if I found out she had an abortion. With all the attacks on Christianity that we've endured here, we Christians should remember one thing, regardless of how others want to paint us, that our faith is founded on forgiveness. Hate abortions all you want, but don't let that hatred blind you to the plight of fellow human beings.

 

I am completely against abortion. In a perfect world, abortions wouldn't exist. In a perfect world, there would be no unwanted child. We live in an imperfect world.

[taks]

Like how republicans changed the esate tax to THE DEATH TAX "well if its named the death tax it must be bad". 

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uh, it's always been called the "death tax" and not just by republicans (as long as i can remember). it's just the recent round of political battling over taxes (beginning with bush's first cuts) that put it in the media spotlight.

 

either way, this example really isn't about morals or tricky politicians. calling it an estate tax is just as "tricky" as the death tax. both describe it accurately, but neither convey a moral implication.

 

taks

[Darth Sirius]

I hate the very thought of abortion. I'm firmly convinced that the best way to curb abortions is to make it such a source of shame and ridicule in society that the vast majority of women will shudder at the very idea.... that doctors will be reluctant to perform abortions for fear of being a social pariah. ...But such crushing shame must be enforced by the members of society and I preach where I cannot comply.

This reminds me of years ago when this was true, and instead of treatment, the women in question went to backstreet abortionists, and risked their own life as well as their unborn childs, so that isn't a consideration IMO.

 

Making abortion illegal is simply not feasible, and I wouldn't want to make it so. For one thing, some abortions will be performed regardless of legality. For another thing, it will force women to suffer yet one more indignity as they will be compelled to break the law. Finally, we are better to bring the message in terms of morals rather than laws. I'm WITHTEETH in thinking this is a perfect moral issue.

Agreed

[WITHTEETH]

Like how republicans changed the esate tax to THE DEATH TAX "well if its named the death tax it must be bad". 

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uh, it's always been called the "death tax" and not just by republicans (as long as i can remember). it's just the recent round of political battling over taxes (beginning with bush's first cuts) that put it in the media spotlight.

 

either way, this example really isn't about morals or tricky politicians. calling it an estate tax is just as "tricky" as the death tax. both describe it accurately, but neither convey a moral implication.

 

taks

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Are you against the estate tax? if so, im curious to why you might be.

[Cantousent]

Speaking of morals, it's immoral to tax income twice. It's as simple as that. If a man pays tax on his income the first time around, then his estate should not be taxed again. It's ridiculous. It's a tax based on "getting the rich." Just remember, sometimes when you take a shot at the other guy, you might hit yourself in the foot. The estate tax is a moral issue. It's clearly immoral.

[WITHTEETH]

How much money do you need to be happy in life, especially if your already dead. why not tax that dead person to give better public education, better welfare, better librarieries and police. these are esential to civilization to be succesful.

Who are the people that get hurt the most? families with businesses. the bigger the busininess the more the lucky person who inherits it will be taxed. they get taxed what 35% if they accept? so they can either take the business and make pay the 35% or sell it and get the rest of the 65%. its a good deal either way. Beofre that the estate tax was even created small businesses weren't popular making it through a generation.

What im really trying to say is - if you need to tax someone, who better then a rich dead corpes?

[FaramirK]

Ah, the one-in-a-million sob story...a popular but flawed debate technique...very well, I will amuse you:

 

Not to long ago in michigan a teenage girl had sex and had gotten pregnant. this girls parents had the same ideals as you do FaramirK.

 

Really? Maybe we have a similar view of abortion, but I don't think you really know enough about my ideals to compare me with some mid-western american couple.

 

she could not go to her parents for help. she put her bets on her parents disapproving of what she did and didn't want to be a famiy burden. it would have ruined her chances to become a nurse, or atleast make them near impossible.

 

A series of poor choices...and interestingly enough I work with a woman who made it through nursing college as a single mother...it's tough, sure, but possible.

 

 

do you really want to imprison somebody that bad that they are willing to beat themselves with a bat?

 

Prision? No. Anyone that troubled is in desperate need of psychological counseling. She probably caused her self ten times as much long-term psychological damage then if she'd had to give put the baby up for adoption.

 

Excuse me if i think of sex as more then just a way to get women pregnant.

 

Excuse you? I agree with you!

 

the idea of other people imposing there will on others.

If they ban abortion you will see thousands of these.

 

Some things have to be imposed on people, like laws for their own safety. Maybe your culture is to promiscuous. I know mine is. The average woman in Russia will have 3 abortions in her life. Our population is falling fater and faster, and our counselling centre is filling with empty, broken men and women.

[FaramirK]

The Child's right to life does not extend to forcing hours of torture on its mother against her will.

 

Ok, listen. Pregnancy is not "torture". Abortion is much more damaging to a womans body than giving birth. Get over it. Basically, your saying that a woman can kill for convinence sake. I can't disagree with you more. Pregnancy is one of the possible results of sex. If you can't deal with the possibility of having to give birth, don't have intercourse.

 

Frankly, though, I don't think there's any chance we're going to come to an agreement on this.

 

Yeah, we can move on to one of the other topics if you like, I respect your rigt to disagree.

[Cantousent]

It doesn't matter whether a man is dead or not. Once his income is taxed, it should safe from further taxation. The death tax is simply a punitive tax waged on folks for no other reason than they have made and saved enough wealth to leave to their children.

 

The death tax doesn't tax corpses. It taxes the children of corpses.

 

Frankly, I don't care if folks leave everything to the family cat, the wealth should not be taxed.

[taks]

Are you against the estate tax? if so, im curious to why you might be.

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what difference does it make?

taks

[taks]

Yeah, we can move on to one of the other topics if you like, I respect your rigt to disagree. 

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careful there faramirk, logic rarely makes sense in the face of ideology

 

taks

[FaramirK]

Yeah, we can move on to one of the other topics if you like, I respect your rigt to disagree. 

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careful there faramirk, logic rarely makes sense in the face of ideology

 

taks

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I'm not following you...

[Jayque]

After reading the posts I am convinced that many people have taken an anti-abortion moral high ground because it make you seem like the defender of human rights. Well I use to feel like many of you do.

 

I knew within every inch of my soul that abortion was wrong. It was immoral. It was an tragedy against an unborn child and judges were actually condoning murder.

 

Then I grew up.

 

I realized that doing what is right is not always doing what is popular. There is a debate longstanding of when it is murder and when it is not. I can accept the definition of when the fetus is able to live on it's own outside the womb.

 

Many of you have written about abortion being contraception. Abortion is painful. Abortion is mentally exhausting. Abortion is nauseating. Why don't you go to a clinic. Why don't you see a woman come out in tears, barely able to walk clutching her stomach from the pain and the mental anguish of emptiness. And preach some more about the ease in which people have this procedure done.

 

It is easier to judge the actions of others because as long as there are these child murdering monsters out there you feel better about who you are. Point the finger and avoid the mirror.

 

I do believe that there is a choice that is made at conception and that choice is the risk of to do or not to do. I also believe that mistakes are made. I also believe that our world is overpopulated, we have hunger problems, health care problems, homeless problems, unemployment, and poverty.

 

Sure from your personal computer that your parents could afford (or for about 10% of you you bought yourself). Sure you can preach about how some people have managed to struggle as a single mother and put themselves through school ... but you know, its one thing to claim a mother's hardships are her own fault, it is another to force an unwanted life to be birthed into the world and live in a state of misery, loneliness, and discontent.

 

I don't feel abortion is great, but it is a legal option and better than many alternatives. I don't want twelve year olds raising children ... the ones being raised by twenty year olds are bad enough. There are better option, but is it morally wrong to do the legal thing, for the right reasons? ... don't judge the choices another makes because from your personal paradise life is easy.

 

To me, the moral corruption is the ability to spit on others without putting yourself in their shoes. And no, don't come back and say "but Susy Q from down the street was able to ... " no. that doesn't count because Susy Q wasn't in everyone elses shoes. The ability to make a choice on what you think is best for you in your current situation, that is the gift and curse of humanity. Everyone has darkness in there path somewhere. I have never known a person who hasn't done something they weren't proud of.

[Darth Sirius]

After reading the posts I am convinced that many people have taken an anti-abortion moral high ground because it make you seem like the defender of human rights.  Well I use to feel like many of you do.

 

I knew within every inch of my soul that abortion was wrong.  It was immoral.  It was an tragedy against an unborn child and judges were actually condoning murder.

 

Then I grew up.

 

I realized that doing what is right is not always doing what is popular.  There is a debate longstanding of when it is murder and when it is not.  I can accept the definition of when the fetus is able to live on it's own outside the womb.

 

Many of you have written about abortion being contraception.  Abortion is painful.  Abortion is mentally exhausting.  Abortion is nauseating.  Why don't you go to a clinic.  Why don't you see a woman come out in tears, barely able to walk clutching her stomach from the pain and the mental anguish of emptiness.  And preach some more about the ease in which people have this procedure done.

 

It is easier to judge the actions of others because as long as there are these child murdering monsters out there you feel better about who you are.  Point the finger and avoid the mirror.

 

I do believe that there is a choice that is made at conception and that choice is the risk of to do or not to do.  I also believe that mistakes are made.  I also believe that our world is overpopulated, we have hunger problems, health care problems, homeless problems, unemployment, and poverty. 

 

Sure from your personal computer that your parents could afford (or for about 10% of you you bought yourself).  Sure you can preach about how some people have managed to struggle as a single mother and put themselves through school ... but you know, its one thing to claim a mother's hardships are her own fault, it is another to force an unwanted life to be birthed into the world and live in a state of misery, loneliness, and discontent.

 

I don't feel abortion is great, but it is a legal option and better than many alternatives.  I don't want twelve year olds raising children ... the ones being raised by twenty year olds are bad enough.  There are better option, but is it morally wrong to do the legal thing, for the right reasons? ... don't judge the choices another makes because from your personal paradise life is easy.

 

To me, the moral corruption is the ability to spit on others without putting yourself in their shoes.  And no, don't come back and say "but Susy Q from down the street was able to ... " no.  that doesn't count because Susy Q wasn't in everyone elses shoes.  The ability to make a choice on what you think is best for you in your current situation, that is the gift and curse of humanity.  Everyone has darkness in there path somewhere.  I have never known a person who hasn't done something they weren't proud of.

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Very good argument