Who was the best of the best lightsaber user?

[seejai]

prolly cus the companies dont wanna injure their precious actors...

any way off topic. vaapad. confusing topic

Edited July 7, 2007 by seejai

[DeathScepter]

don't forget this is about all 7 primary Lightsaber forms and all of the characters that are on the poll.

 

 

 

During the Battle of the Star Forge, I do think that what Revan did was impressive. Crushing all of the dark jedis and sith troopers, and still having the enough energy to take on both Bastila and Malak.

[seejai]

yes. i always felt so powerful doing stuff like that but if you read the books and watch the movies its not all that realistic

[Darth Scelus]

The only problem is that we don't have a concrete example of what Vaapad is; if you observe the moves in ROTS; you can distinctly see the difference between Makashi (Dooku), Soresu (Obi-wan; although it is debatable by the back-story), Ataru (Yoda), Djem So/Shien (Anakin) and Juyo (Palpatine);

 

(Shii-cho is very simple and we know how that is supposed to work, supposedly; and Niman isn't shown; although it is debatable)

 

Each looks unique and you can see the 'style' of the form;

 

As an aside;

 

The lightsabre 'Forms' used in the original trilogy were devived from fencing styles in the real world; Rapier, Epee and Sabre-In fact the guy in the Vader suit during the fight on Bespin was a real life fencing master. By the time of the prequals they started to shift towards other swordfighting styles-such as Kendo, which seems to be the basis for Qui-Gon Jin's form. I'm not sure why this happened, unless it was easier to find a fencing master schooled in the western styles than it was to find someone who knew easten forms when they made the original films.

 

 

Um actually i think it was the other way around; the moves in the original bare far more resemblance to kendo than fencing; specifically the two handed grip all the Jedi use in the originals; and the moves themselves; they are strong direct strikes very similar to the japanese styles.

 

It was in the prequels that they decided to use more of the western (and Chinese) style influences; specifically with Makashi; (TPM doesn't count; at that time they were still doing something similar to the original although they wanted to try and do something a little different); as i was saying; with Makashi; it was supposed to be the 'fencing' style of lightsabre combat; specifically; Dooku's footwork is very reminiscent of fencing footwork; while in the original (and with Anakin) the footwork was all 'japanese' footwork; wide dominant stances.

 

Makashi; also seemed to use a one handed grip on the sabre far more; and it's emphasis on 'deftness of hand' is also remaniscent of fencing techniques; (also Chinese; both favour the wrist); unlike the japanese moves which tend to emphasise shoulder motions; hence leading to your point of 'one powerful blow that kills the enemy'.

 

In the prequels they decided to use more of these different styles of fighting.

 

Every type of fencing teaches different ways to fight, in some cases this is because of a different aproach to how you fight-Japanesse fencing styles for example tend to be more about delivering a single killing blow than defending yourself-in others the difference is down to the type of weapon-Again, a lot of Japanesse fencing moves involve slashing strokes since a Katana has a single slightly curved cutting edge. While Western fencing tends to be more about lunges, since most western blades are designed for thrusting. The weight of the weapon is also a factor, since a lighter blade can be moved more quickly-An epee or Rapier fencing match is a blur and a hell of a lot faster than a sabre fencing match since the blades are lighter.

 

True; and it was in this that decided in the prequels to use the 'Seven forms'; and actually when you know how to track the moves things (in both real fencing and the lightsabre stuff) don't look as impressive as before.

 

 

When it comes to the forms as seen on screen what we have is a mixture of varying styles, with (I assume) some differences in the on-guard position to denote differing forms. Since lightsabers have no effective weight (One of the things that is consistant throughout the entire StarWars universe) and because the blade can cut just as well regardless of if it is thrust or slashed they most likely just picked the most visualy impressive moves, and added one or two impressive moves that probably are not used in the real world. (During the Mace/Palpatine fight Mace at one point parries a swipe by turning his back and holding his sabre one handed down his back. Somehow I can't see that being a very smart thing to do in a real fight...).

 

ah you've come across something that is of considerable importance; Lightsabre fights are choreographed after all;

 

I've watched real fights; in a proper match even between masters of their fencing style; the longest match i've seen lasted 5 moves. The fight between Obi-wan and Anakin (the first run; after he strnagles Padme; until it cuts to yoda and palpatine) is over 40 moves long.

 

It is totally unrealistic in terms of ACTUAL combat; in actual combat you don't actually block every blow in fact you actually try not to block a blow you don't have to; because as the enemy attacks he will have to commit his entire weight to that strike; and if you can simply out-maneuvre his blow; HE WILL BE DEFENSELESS; you can bring your blade up and strike him and he will never be able to regain his balance enough to block. That's why real fights don't last very long; it's usually the first person to attack loses.

 

I watched this fight between two olympic fencers; one attacked, the other our maneuvred him and sturck; what was more is you could see the attacker try to bring his blade back to parry that blow; AND HE WASN'T FAST ENOUGH; these people are the closest thing to real fighters in today's time.

 

Remember the point of duelling is to immobilise or KILL your opponent as QUICKLY as possible; the longer a fight lasts the more chance they'll win.

 

However when you have the ability (to a point) to predict your opponents moves and have some more powerful outside force (sorry for the pun) guiding your every move; you can counter every move your opponent makes; also why it says in the visual dictionary (AOTC; lightsabre combat)

 

"...in advanced lightsabre combat, the force plays a larger role than physical skill alone..."

 

So a Jedi can just keep predicting every move their opponent makes; and their opponent them; other factors come into it; but it could potentially last forever.

 

But the 'REAL' fencing is terribly anti-climatic; the fight would last all of five seconds; so what they do is choreograph a set of moves that can flow from one to another and that look good.

 

Now about that back block; You're completely correct; in most normal fencing; you would never turn your back to your enemy; once you lose track of them your done for. Their are instances when you could twist to evade a blow; but usually this would mean you would then IMMEDIATELY kill them (my point above about the over balancing); but even this is a little dubious; and you'd never try attacking from a spin.

 

However; these "normal" fencing moves get awfully dull after a while; unless you have lots of intersting terrain (watch Pirate of the Carribean 2; when they're fighting on top of the big wheel; they are really good fencing maneuvres; only they get boring if you can watch the action constantly; so to stop this they used alot of intersting and changin terrain (through a building on its roof and then strangely on a moving water wheel))

 

But lightsabre's have always been about the look; you want to see the fight; so the have to make moves that look extra-ordinary. There was a particular move for example; the 'triple spin' Obi-wan and Anakin both do; it involves a move that spins the blade across the back while you've got your back to the enemy; now in real fencing; it would never work; but they use it so well in the film (they got Obi-wan striking the blade mid-spin which meant it looked like a back block);

 

And it did look incredible; every move looked like it had a purpose; they flowed fluidly and were also believable;

 

Lightsabre fights are not FIGHTS they are DANCES; they have a set number of moves that flow smoothly from one to another and never stop until the end of the fight.

 

In terms of realism; there are a lot of dubious (and plain 'never-gonna-happen' moves in all of the prequel fights; interestingly; the original fights actually were more realistic; but not as artful) moves in the fights; but in terms of choreography they are brilliant; believable; and smooth.

 

 

One interesting thing I have noticed is that lightsabres are never used in a lunge, even though the blade should be very effective used in this way.

 

Actually there are several lunges in ROTS; in the opening fight with Palpatine (between all the masters) he lunges twice; Anakin lunges once in his duel with Dooku; and at least once in his duel with Obi-wan; i can get you the precise time code of the movie for when he does; if you'd like(?).

 

Although i'd like to point out they're not so much 'fencing' lunges; they are always done with both hands on the blade; but they are still lunges.

 

(Luke Skywalker, while training Mira Jade in one of the EU books, does pass comment on never this when she impales something on the end of her sabre). I can only assume that given the nature of the lightsabre props it was considered somewhat safer for the actors, in the case of a mistake or missed parry, for them to be belted over the head with the pole than impaled on the end of it. Since the films were also intended as family entertainment someone probably also decided that it was better if the kiddies didn't recreate lightsabre fights with lunges.

 

Yes lunges are (from experience) very difficult to avoid or block unless you know how; however their was no problem with the props; they're were blunted poles. Although yes lunges can result in the more horrific injuries with props than blows.

 

Ray Parks, aka Darth Maul, chorographed all of the lightsaber fights that relates to his character and he did assist Nick Gillard with the training of Liam and Ewan for that movie.

 

His martial art is Wushu.

 

Interesting. Although the Wushu thing i think i'd heard about;

 

Interesting thing is that Wushu is actually the chinese form of 'choreographed' matrial arts. What wushu is is the 'general' term for martial arts; also it is specifically used in the chinese sword films to create the long (again, unrealistic) duel between the characters.

 

its so complicated!!!! i didnt know the guy who play darth maul chorograhed that. thats cool

 

Actually it's not that complicated; in fact it is incredibly simple when compared to the fights in ROTS; not to say it wasn't awesome when it came out; (actually even the moves in ROTS aren't that complicated; their are a couple that are and they do take alot of practice)

 

See the thing is it looks complicated; but in truth (and from experience) it's not; most of the moves are incredibly simple.

 

Well except for the flips Maul does; that one he does after his lightsabre is cut in half (not the one to get up off the floor; the one after that) does take substantial training; but in terms of the movements; they are all rather simple; they look cool beacuse glowing sticks are doing them and because when most people watch the fight they try to track everything that's going on; when you focus on one person alone you will actually realise that what they're doing isn't all that complicated.

 

thats impressive. i think its awesome when actors dont need stunt doubles

 

Also; in ROTS that entire lightsabre fight between Anakin and Obi-wan; the actors did that all themselves; no stunt doubles for the actual fighting; it took them each about 6 hours a day for weeks on end to get that right.

 

Interestingly; and in relevance to all this; with ROTS; they realised they'd taken the 'lightsabre' combat to it's full effectiveness that they could in the second film (notice how different the intensity of the fights in ROTS was compared to the last two);

 

What they realised with ROTS was they had take it to the next level; not only would they be fighting in the lightsabre styles; the moves had to become alot faster; (they threw in a couple more moves that look really cool but were harder to learn; that triple-spin i mentioned earlier) and they had to work into incredibly smooth runs.

 

Everything was taken to a higher level with ROTS; and it worked brilliantly; the Anakin/Obi-wan fight scene is one of the best choreographed fights ever. And the actors did all the fights themselves.

[DeathScepter]

all i have to say is Damn

[Darth Scelus]

all i have to say is Damn

 

 

might i ask (i'm a little lost), Damn to what?

 

Although you were right in one thing; that part when Anakin and Obi-wan are on the big pillar thing that's in the lake of lava; they used stunt double for that; but that was because the rig they built was precarious; and considering they didn't actully do any fighting on it it didn't matter; (also you were correct about the legal stuff)

 

Still i think it's awesome the actors did that fight (and at that speed) all themselves; still 6 hours a day for months; well that's what they get paid for.

[seejai]

yeah.... that was impressive.... the thing i was talking about that was complicated was the vaapad tho

[DeathScepter]

all i have to say is Damn

 

 

might i ask (i'm a little lost), Damn to what?

 

Although you were right in one thing; that part when Anakin and Obi-wan are on the big pillar thing that's in the lake of lava; they used stunt double for that; but that was because the rig they built was precarious; and considering they didn't actully do any fighting on it it didn't matter; (also you were correct about the legal stuff)

 

Still i think it's awesome the actors did that fight (and at that speed) all themselves; still 6 hours a day for months; well that's what they get paid for.

 

 

 

to your long post I say damn to for it is long and that is a good thing.

[Darth Scelus]

to your long post I say damn to for it is long and that is a good thing.

 

Yeah; sorry if i do go a bit over-board;

 

Though i like to get all my points out on the table before i try and argue...sometimes it means i post things that are pages long...oh well;

 

Still what's this thing with Vaapad?

[DeathScepter]

it is a finessing of Juyo by Mace Windu.

[Darth Scelus]

it is a finessing of Juyo by Mace Windu.

 

Yeah it's the only plausible explanation; given the amount of time he had to design it.

 

And on further inspection; most of the moves he does are almost identical to Palpatine's (well except for a couple which he does solely).

 

And as i've said i like that explanation as it means Vaapad and Juyo are both the same and different simultaneously; Vaapad for Jedi, Juyo for Sith.

 

Although i can't really decide who's the better swordsmaster; Mace got my vote; though i think i like Yoda better.

[Darth Mortis]

it is a finessing of Juyo by Mace Windu.

 

Yeah it's the only plausible explanation; given the amount of time he had to design it.

 

And on further inspection; most of the moves he does are almost identical to Palpatine's (well except for a couple which he does solely).

 

And as i've said i like that explanation as it means Vaapad and Juyo are both the same and different simultaneously; Vaapad for Jedi, Juyo for Sith.

 

Although i can't really decide who's the better swordsmaster; Mace got my vote; though i think i like Yoda better.

 

Again, I have to fully agree. Vaapad as a variation of Juyo for the Jedi makes perfect sence, explains everything about the form we know-even the ability to reflect dark force powers to some degree could be explained as a side effect of the self control the user has to have in order to use the form, rather than a deliberate part of the form. Considering that Mace probably developed the form sometime before the Jedi knew for sure that the Sith were back, and hence they would have had no reason to assume they would ever be facing an opponent who could use the force against them, it would seem strange if they deliberatly invented a form that could protect against force powers when there didn't seem to be any need for one.

 

It explains why Vaapad is listed as form seven, yet also considered as a form in its own right-something that on the face of things seems conradictrory and confusing-Why Palpatine had real trouble dealing with Mace (he just wasn't used to fighting a Jedi who is able to use what is, in effect, a sith lightsabre form-and it should be remembered than unlike his predicesors fighting someone useing Sith fighting styles would have been the exception for this Lord of the Sith). And why only three Jedi ever learnt or used the form; In order to learn Vaapad you would need to have learnt/mastered Juyo, and in order to learn Juyo you first need to have mastered Nimian (I'm not sure what the prerequsite for learning Nimian is, but I'd assume you'd have to have learnt at least two other forms first-one defensive and the other agressive). Given all of what you'd need to learn before you were at a stage to even be considered for training in Vaapad it could be assumed that;

 

Learning Vaapad takes a long time, as you have to master at least two other forms first. Chances are most Jedi who might have considered learning Vaapad simply didn't have the time needed.

 

Since Juyo wasn't used by many Jedi-it was considered a dangerious form as it was so agressive-very few would have wanted to pick up Vaapad as well. Those who did want to pick up Vaapad would probably have decided to stick with Juyo once they knew that form.

 

The number of Jedi who were good enough Swordsmen to learn the prerequsite's for learning Vaapad was always going to be small. If you only have a small number of Jedi who were good enough to potentally pick the form up, and if most of those would have either decided not to learn it (or Juyo) or wouldn't have had the time to do so then your left with a very small number of potential Vaapad users and almost none who would have been in any position to learn it.

 

The last word however should go to Mace Windu;

 

"Who is the better swordsman? The inventor of a new form, or the master of a classic form?"

 

(Mace Windu to Obi-Wan Kenobi explaining why the latter was the only Jedi who could beat General Grevious-taken from the book Revenge of the Sith-I might have misquoted slightly).

 

Or in other words even Windu considered Obi-Wan to be the better swordsman of the two of them.

Edited July 7, 2007 by Darth Mortis

[Darth Mortis]

(I forgot to reply to these before, and by the time I remembered I couldn't edit my last post-hence the double posting)

 

the only reason that the stunt doubles are used is for legal reasons. Even of the actors wanted to do all of the stunts, By law there is always will be a stunt double or a stuntman filling that role.

 

No really, Stunt doubles are used for many reasons, and the only one that is legal is that the insurance company will sometimes refuse to cover a film if the Main actors are doing stunts themselves. Other reasons include;

 

Actors not having the skills to do a stunt-for example stunt doubles are often used during fight scenes because the stuntman knows martial arts far better than the actor.

 

The stunt is to dangerous-no one wants someone to get hurt or killed filming, but if it does happen its better (from the view of the entire film) if its a stuntman who gets hurt rather than one of the actors. If one of your actors is hurt and unable to be on set the whole film can screech to a halt, and that costs money.

 

The actor refuses to do a stunt-many actors will refuse to do a stunt, either because they believe its to dangerous for them, or they are being asked to do something they really don't want to do (Say be covered in Spiders). Actors can't be forced to do a stunt they don't want to do, which I guess is a legal limitation to some degree, no matter how much the director screams, shouts, cries or threatens the actor.

 

 

There are quite a few actors who will chearfully do as many stunts as they will be allowed to do-Harrison Ford is (somewhat appropreatly) an actor who will do as many stunts himself as he can get away with. (In one case while he was filming Clear and Present Danger there was a scene calling for this charactor to be hanging onto a rope ladder handing from a helocopter. The director told Harrison to let go at about six feet above the ground and they would get a stunt double to do the rest. When they filmed Harrison didn't let go, and ended up sixty feet in the air before the pilot set him back down. Needless to say the Director took a while to calm down afterwards). Other actors who do all their own stunts include Jackie Chan and Willem Dafoe-who did all his own stunts in Spiderman. The limit to what stunts an actor will do seems to be a mixture between what they are willing to do, and what the studio/director/producer will let them do, rather than any legal limitations.

 

Yes lunges are (from experience) very difficult to avoid or block unless you know how; however their was no problem with the props; they're were blunted poles. Although yes lunges can result in the more horrific injuries with props than blows.

 

They went through several different types of lightsabre props during the films. They tried carbon fibre rods-which cracked-and aliminum rods-which bent. A broken length of carbon fibre hitting someone in a lunge could potentally be almost as bad as being impailed on a real sword, while a metal pole is going to cause some major bruising even if it doesn't break the skin. I think you are correct in saying that lunges were used once or twice in the films, but If I'm recalling correctly I think those lunges were done at range-meaning that even if they had connected the 'blade' would have not had enough force to do any major damage (Lunging with both hands probably also helps, since a two handed lunge isn't going to go as far as a single handed lunge.) I think in other cases the camera angles would lead you to conclude that the lunge was made closer to the body than it really was, or the lunge was done in such a way that they were not aiming at someone directly but towards the camera.

Edited July 7, 2007 by Darth Mortis

[Darth Scelus]

Actors not having the skills to do a stunt-for example stunt doubles are often used during fight scenes because the stuntman knows martial arts far better than the actor.

 

True; why alot of the chinese martial arts films involve actors who know martial arts; and when they're doing moves that require extensive training a stunt man is the qualified one.

 

Although in ROTS (and in the other films; for the most part) Obi-wan and Anakin did the entire fight scenes themselves; in ROTS the stunt-doubles were only used in that scene when they were on the big pillar floating in the lake of lava; the rig they built was probably a little dangerous (also stuntmen are probably trained in how to react if a stunt does go wrong; and this would allow them to protect themselves better from injury).

 

But yeah, the actual fighting in ROTS was done entirely by the actors (the ones that could; Dooku and Palpatine were really too old to be doing their moves; so they replaced them with a proper swordsman in the scenes where they had to fight; which is fair enough)

 

There are quite a few actors who will chearfully do as many stunts as they will be allowed to do-Harrison Ford is (somewhat appropreatly) an actor who will do as many stunts himself as he can get away with. (In one case while he was filming Clear and Present Danger there was a scene calling for this charactor to be hanging onto a rope ladder handing from a helocopter. The director told Harrison to let go at about six feet above the ground and they would get a stunt double to do the rest. When they filmed Harrison didn't let go, and ended up sixty feet in the air before the pilot set him back down. Needless to say the Director took a while to calm down afterwards). Other actors who do all their own stunts include Jackie Chan and Willem Dafoe-who did all his own stunts in Spiderman. The limit to what stunts an actor will do seems to be a mixture between what they are willing to do, and what the studio/director/producer will let them do, rather than any legal limitations.

 

Yeah; although Jackie Chan is qualified as a stunt man (i would believe); again he's a 'martial arts' actor and his original films were all martial arts.

 

And yeah some actors really want to do all their own stunts; but there are limitations as you've pointed out earlier.

 

 

Yes lunges are (from experience) very difficult to avoid or block unless you know how; however their was no problem with the props; they're were blunted poles. Although yes lunges can result in the more horrific injuries with props than blows.

 

They went through several different types of lightsabre props during the films. They tried carbon fibre rods-which cracked-and aliminum rods-which bent. A broken length of carbon fibre hitting someone in a lunge could potentally be almost as bad as being impailed on a real sword, while a metal pole is going to cause some major bruising even if it doesn't break the skin. I think you are correct in saying that lunges were used once or twice in the films, but If I'm recalling correctly I think those lunges were done at range-meaning that even if they had connected the 'blade' would have not had enough force to do any major damage (Lunging with both hands probably also helps, since a two handed lunge isn't going to go as far as a single handed lunge.) I think in other cases the camera angles would lead you to conclude that the lunge was made closer to the body than it really was, or the lunge was done in such a way that they were not aiming at someone directly but towards the camera.

 

 

Actually; in ROTS they used a Carbon/Fibre-glass mixture that proved very durable; in fact i think they only broke the props once or twice (in the entire filming AND the (i think, literally) hundreds of hours of training the actors had to do); although i recall hearing somewhere someone saying that they didn't break the props once in the entire time.

 

And the Palpatine lunge doesn't count as they would've had to cut and then FX the Jedi Master being impaled; and Anakin lunges at Dooku in the first fight scene aboard the Invisible Hand; but that one the actor was fighting against a trained swordsman; so even if something went wrong the swordsman could block it with no trouble;

 

And i'm not sure about the camera angles stuff; well i can say that the lunge in the Obi-wan Anakin duel is not; the camera is a long shot from the side; and they were rather close but you are correct as the lunge was a double handed; also Obi-wan countered it well...actually that one might not count too much as it was just before Obi-wan drags Anikins blade into the console; i'd have to watch it closely to tell whether it was really forceful (sorry for the pun) or not.

 

But yeah lunges are not used very often; and are hard to deal with.

[Darth Scelus]

Also, i like the idea of Obi-wan being the best swordsman.

[Darth Scelus]

Although, tachnically we don't know if Mace could've taken Grevious (nor Yoda); they never got the chance to my knowledge.

 

But i think Obi-wan really should be one of the higher contenders.

[Apollo Cloud]

Darth Bane, quite easily. Technically, he's an outright prodigy, learning every move and sequence to the saber staff as well as becoming the best duelist in the most martial order of sith thus far seen, all under two years of training. That being said, he can wield said double-bladed saber with mastery of all 7 forms, Kas'im's advanced ones that is. Speedwise, at only a fraction of the power he gains in Bane of the Sith (as in before going through 4 major power surges, gaining a further year's worth of experience, as well as the benefits gained from the orbalisk armour) he was able to move at speeds completely invisible to the eyes of trained force users, including Kas'im who was noted for his incredible reflexes. Strengthwise, he's a beast of a man, virtually 7 foot tall, and described as a 'mountain of muscle,' with an incredible command of the force to enhance his strength with. His command over the force is ridiculously strong, to the point where he can control and direct enough power to wipe out an entire planet, and play around with moons as if they were pingpong balls. He quite simply has anyone beat, with the force or saber combat.

[Darth Mortis]

Although, tachnically we don't know if Mace could've taken Grevious (nor Yoda); they never got the chance to my knowledge.

 

But i think Obi-wan really should be one of the higher contenders.

 

Mace couldn't-it is mentioned in the book (and I think it was seen in the clone wars animated series) that Mace fought Grevious on Corasant just prior to the opening of the film. (The reason Grevious was coughing at the start of that film was because Mace force crushed Grevious during that fight-this is mentioned on the comentory for the DVD). Mace couldn't get past Grevious's defenses, which was (mentioned in the book anyway) why they sent Obi-Wan after Grevious rather than any of the other Jedi masters.

 

Given this, and that (again, in the book at least) Mace says that Obi-Wan was a better swordsman than himself leads me to hand the title to Obi-Wan over everyone else. Even going off battles fought Obi-Wan is the only one of his time to face no less than three Sith lords (Maul, Dooku and Vader), beat two of them (Maul and Vader) and although he didn't beat Dooku he faced him twice and lived to tell the tale....admittidly only because Yoda showed up to distract Dooku before he could finish Obi-Wan off in the first fight, and Anakin was there to fight Dooku in the second case.

[Apollo Cloud]

Mace was actually able to defeat Grievous in the novel Labyrinth of Evil. Who cares anyway, Bane would own Grievous in a heartbeat, people like Mace Windu and Obi-Wan aren't anywhere close to the big leagues.

[Darth Scelus]

Although, tachnically we don't know if Mace could've taken Grevious (nor Yoda); they never got the chance to my knowledge.

 

But i think Obi-wan really should be one of the higher contenders.

 

Mace couldn't-it is mentioned in the book (and I think it was seen in the clone wars animated series) that Mace fought Grevious on Corasant just prior to the opening of the film. (The reason Grevious was coughing at the start of that film was because Mace force crushed Grevious during that fight-this is mentioned on the comentory for the DVD). Mace couldn't get past Grevious's defenses, which was (mentioned in the book anyway) why they sent Obi-Wan after Grevious rather than any of the other Jedi masters.

 

Given this, and that (again, in the book at least) Mace says that Obi-Wan was a better swordsman than himself leads me to hand the title to Obi-Wan over everyone else. Even going off battles fought Obi-Wan is the only one of his time to face no less than three Sith lords (Maul, Dooku and Vader), beat two of them (Maul and Vader) and although he didn't beat Dooku he faced him twice and lived to tell the tale....admittidly only because Yoda showed up to distract Dooku before he could finish Obi-Wan off in the first fight, and Anakin was there to fight Dooku in the second case.

 

 

Actually; in the clone wars cartoon thing (which shows Mace crushing Grevious's chest) he actually doesn't get there in time for him to duel with Grevious. Just as he arrives; Grevious is boarding the shuttle with his prisoner; and just as Grevious turns to face Mace (backing into the shuttle, at the same time, i think); Mace crushes his chest. They don't actually duel; well not at that point.

 

But yeah, i've heard that quote before;

 

"That is so like you, Master Kenobi. I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form

[DeathScepter]

Kreia on Korriban states that time, the Ancient Lightsaber Masters will make the current generation like Children with toy lightsabers.

 

 

 

 

Btw lets make this the longest thread ever on this site.

Edited July 8, 2007 by DeathScepter

[Darth Scelus]

Kreia on Korriban states that time, the Ancient Lightsaber Masters will make the current generation like Children with toy lightsabers.

 

 

 

 

Btw lets make this the longest thread ever on this site.

 

 

Yeah i've heard that before; and hence; if she also reffering to Nihilus and Sion; then wouldn't that make the older masters far more powerful/skilled with their lightsabre duelling?

 

Although...it don't know; should a requirement be that all the lightsabre forms had to be in existence at the time?

 

Though, that could be a little self-defeating; given that the ones who couldn't master 'non-existant' forms could conceivably be better swordsmen;

 

Still...i don't know how valid all of the 'older masters' would be though.

[DeathScepter]

Styles dies out over the centuries and other replaces them over time.

[Darth Scelus]

Styles dies out over the centuries and other replaces them over time.

 

That's not always true; as long as a style has martial merit it will stay practiced. It's only when there is a clearly superior style that one will be succeeded and dropped entirely. Or when all those who know the style are gone and the knowledge is lost.

 

I mean even Shii-cho still finds (few) masters who think it capable enough to stand up to any other form (when mastered to the right degree). And strictly speaking Shii-cho is the closest form to being ineffective; so i doubt that any of the styles would dissappear; of course they would probably be altered to some extent over the course of time.

 

Also; assuming the statement

 

"...if an item does not appear in our records; it does not exist..."

 

Holds at least some merit; the Jedi would've encountered (almost) every known fighting style; and i would think Lightsabre combat would've then been based off of all these to be the most combat effective form attainable (also; the force 'prediction' stuff the Jedi use gives them a significant advantage over non-force using enemies; and the capabilties of a lightsabre).

 

In my opinion, i don't think the forms would've died out; also they've lasted for many millenia already; and it would seem progress in form development has slowed in the last several thousand years;

 

I mean; Juyo (again unfinished to Jedi) has been around since the Jedi Exile (i think, at least 3000 or so years, possibly longer) and between then and the AOTC era nothing happened; it wasn't until Mace Windu developed Vaapad (finishing Juyo); and even that was only a modification of an existing form rather than a designing a whole new one.

 

It's just the 'older masters' would've existed before some of the latest forms existed; and hence we don't necessarily know what potential they would've had with those...

 

Though as has already been pointed out; it's not that any form is superior to another; it's how well it is mastered; (also said) a master of an 'inferior' form is far more better than a novice of a 'superior' form; which is also very true; even though soem forms may not have existed at the time the 'older masters' may have been far better swordsmen.

[Darth Scelus]

Hehe...my bad; it was you who said that; or rather something to that accord;

 

Even the weakest system is better when a user makes it combat ready than a most perfect combat ready system with a lazy schutta whom doesn't make it combat ready for that user.

 

(also; i apologise for my terrible 'more better'; had a thought then changed it; or rather changed the wording; only didn't erase enough words)

 

Although; another point you made about some of the masters from the pre AOTC era being way too powerful i completely agree with.

 

I prefer to look at the Jedi (and Sith) presented in the films as the best examples for the 'most powerful' force-users; because they seem to have adequate limits.

 

Although; i too am a bit of a Revan fan; though i must admit i don't know as much about him (canonically) as some. And i also agree he'd be pushing it (from my point of view; he'd probably even be too powerful) really for (limited) 'super-force-users'.