Anyone ever attempt to explain this?

[Kilkanon]

I know this has probably been discussed before but I am new to, well pretty much any forums on SW and I don't want to wade through thousands of topics...

 

My question is this: How is it that Luke becomes so powerful in the force with only what seems to me to be a few weeks of training under Obi-Wan and then Yoda? Jedi were traditionally taken for training only while very young. Even then the average apprentice doesn't even make Padawan until he is in his early to mid teens and then has to wait another 7 to 10 years for Knighthood. That is 20 - 25 years of constant training starting from early childhood! Luke, at the age of 17(?) starts training for a few days under Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan dies, Luke finds Yoda three years later, Yoda trains him for a few weeks at most and he is uber?! Proportionately speaking, that's like giving a raw recruit, who hasn't even been through basic training, one day of Navy Seal training and then sending him off on his first mission... and somehow he not only lives but completes the mission... This question has lingered with me since I first watched ESB. Has there ever been any attempt to explain this either in the comics/books or by Lucas himself?

 

Kilkanon

[Baneblade]

I know this has probably been discussed before but I am new to, well pretty much any forums on SW and I don't want to wade through thousands of topics...

 

My question is this: How is it that Luke becomes so powerful in the force with only what seems to me to be a few weeks of training under Obi-Wan and then Yoda? Jedi were traditionally taken for training only while very young. Even then the average apprentice doesn't even make Padawan until he is in his early to mid teens and then has to wait another 7 to 10 years for Knighthood. That is 20 - 25 years of constant training starting from early childhood! Luke, at the age of 17(?) starts training for a few days under Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan dies, Luke finds Yoda three years later, Yoda trains him for a few weeks at most and he is uber?! Proportionately speaking, that's like giving a raw recruit, who hasn't even been through basic training, one day of Navy Seal training and then sending him off on his first mission... and somehow he not only lives but completes the mission...  This question has lingered with me since I first watched ESB. Has there ever been any attempt to explain this either in the comics/books or by Lucas himself?

 

Kilkanon

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well....

Either ->

 

- Luke was 20 in Ep 4

- Episodes 4 and 5 covered 3 years.

- Time between Ep 5 and Ep 6 was 1 Year.

- The actual Jedi training includes diplomacy, Languages, Jedi History, Galactic History Ect. Ect. Luke got a crash course (just the basics, like using the force and Lightsabre)

 

 

Or... ->

 

George Lucas Is a Moron.

 

Pick one.

[Kilkanon]

I was afraid of that answer <_< ... I was hoping that there was some really cool answer that would send me haring off to the bookstore or library in order to sate my keen desire for all things Luke. Ahh well...

 

Kilkanon

[Dragonforce]

being the son of anakin probably counts for something too

[GhostofAnakin]

While it doesn't necessarily explain away everything, the fact that Luke is "The Chosen One's" offspring suggests that comparing his progression in the Force to that of just "regular" Jedi is invalid.

 

I think the only person you can compare Luke's growth in the Force with over a specific period of time is that of his father's, and Anakin seemed to have the same type of learning curve as Luke.

[FaramirK]

I'll pick the former Baneblade as opposed to the later...

[Hey Steve]

As said above, for one Luke is unusually strong in the force, so he can do more with less training.

 

But more importantly, Luke doesn't pull any crazy force stunts, especially during ESB. In Empire, he gets his ass beat by Vader, and only escapes through fortunate circumstance (falling away from where Vader can get him, and being timely rescued by his friends). Moreover, Vader wasn't trying to kill him, but rather was trying to get him to come to the dark side (though admittedly Vader wouldn't have been too upset if he had killed Luke, but that's still not his main effort).

 

Even in Jedi, he doesn't do too much remarkable force stuff. Mainly just lightsaber stuff and moving stuff with the force, which is fairly basic stuff. And the Emperor has his way with Luke; only Vader's intervention saved him.

 

So none of this stuff seems beyond the training that Luke had, especially given his aptitude (and given that he learned from the best Jedi masters).

[SteveThaiBinh]

Luke is the child of Anakin, the 'most powerful Jedi ever'. Anakin was fathered by the Force itself (it amazes me that the Christian extremists in the US let this one slide). And we learn in Kotor 2 that the Force runs strong in bloodlines, or at least I think Kreia said that with reference to the Handmaiden.

 

Since the Jedi aren't supposed to have kids, doesn't that suggest that they're trying to breed themselves out of existence? Given that the Sith probably don't have any restrictions on sex, this may be a poor long-term strategy for Team Jedi.

[The Great Phantom]

Nope. FS-iveness isn't necessarily hereditary, SteveThaiBinh.

 

A group of rabid gizka could evolve into the most powerful Jedi ever, as far as genetics is concerned.

 

The Force touches ALL LIFE, not just Force Sensitives.

[FaramirK]

Luke is the child of Anakin, the 'most powerful Jedi ever'.  Anakin was fathered by the Force itself (it amazes me that the Christian extremists in the US let this one slide).

 

Why? I don't think most of them cared, its only a story. I personally felt that the whole virgin birth thing in SW was stupid. Lucas really "jumped the shark".

[Kilkanon]

Even in Jedi, he doesn't do too much remarkable force stuff. Mainly just lightsaber stuff and moving stuff with the force, which is fairly basic stuff. And the Emperor has his way with Luke; only Vader's intervention saved him.

 

So none of this stuff seems beyond the training that Luke had, especially given his aptitude (and given that he learned from the best Jedi masters).

 

Well, I think we all agree that given Luke's gene pool he was what you might call "a quick study" in the force. Still, I have to disagree that Luke did little that was remarkable in ESB and ROTJ. In ESB Vader has one objective, to capture Luke. You would think capturing a boy with a few weeks of Jedi training would be a as easy as Force Choking a baby for a powerful and experienced Sith Lord such as Vader. Vader had been hunting and killing Jedi for around 20(?) years before he faced Luke. Instead, Luke defies every attempt by Vader to capture him, he even struck Vader a glancing blow on the shoulder while dueling him! Finally, instead of Vader calmly determining the sequence of events, Luke prompts what had to have been a premature, perhaps desperate revelation from Vader and then escapes by falling into a huge shaft and using the force to see him to safety. Then he uses the force to direct Leia straight to him. Pretty amazing if you ask me. In ROTJ...

 

Luke personally and intentionally orchastrated the downfall of both Vader and Palpatine... think about why he threw his lightsaber away. He did not leave himself defenseless because he was suddenly overcome by suicidal tendancies... Luke was paying close attention to his father's feelings, especially after he spared Vader's life just as the Emperor was crowing for Luke to kill Vader and take his place. He knew, he could feel how close his father was and so he made a choice, the most difficult and the best possible choice if you think about it and he triumphed completely over Vader, Palpatine and the dark side.

 

When I ask how Luke got so powerful with so little training that is what I really mean, that was power, the power of the Jedi. Many before Luke, including his own father never mastered that power and fell, but Luke did not. And all with a few weeks of Jedi training... remarkable.

 

Anyway, I think you all have given me the answer I asked for. There really is no official explanation as to why Luke could do so much with so little other than what is implied by his heritage, the fact that he had a stable and loving childhood and two of the finest Masters to teach him what little he did learn by formal methods. Thanks guys.

 

Kilkanon

[SteveThaiBinh]

Nope. FS-iveness isn't necessarily hereditary, SteveThaiBinh.

 

A group of rabid gizka could evolve into the most powerful Jedi ever, as far as genetics is concerned.

 

The Force touches ALL LIFE, not just Force Sensitives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not necessarily hereditary, I agree. The most powerful force user could suddenly spring from a family with no history of force-sensitivity. That doesn't preclude the possibility that strong force-users tend to have strong force-user children. Since so few Jedi have children, there's little evidence either way. But I thought I remembered Kreia saying something along these lines...

[Baneblade]

...Vader had been hunting and killing Jedi for around 20(?) years before he faced Luke...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

-Vader had been killing Imperial Officers for around 20(?) years before he faced Luke. *FIXED* :D

 

 

 

'Bout the rest->

 

Besides, Having Wisdom and Common Sense , Doesn't require teaching...

... you can have them from the get go.

[Kilkanon]

Vader had been killing Imperial Officers for around 20(?) years before he faced Luke. *FIXED* 

 

I am not sure if you are just making a joke or if you are saying that Vader didn't really kill many Jedi. Sooo... I will say that it took a while for Sidious and Vader to (almost) completely wipe the Jedi from the galaxy. And as usual Sidious did the bidding and Vader the running. So Vader had hunted and killed many Jedi before he faced Luke.

 

Kilkanon

[Mahf]

Even in Jedi, he doesn't do too much remarkable force stuff. Mainly just lightsaber stuff and moving stuff with the force, which is fairly basic stuff. And the Emperor has his way with Luke; only Vader's intervention saved him.

 

So none of this stuff seems beyond the training that Luke had, especially given his aptitude (and given that he learned from the best Jedi masters).

 

 

Luke personally and intentionally orchastrated the downfall of both Vader and Palpatine... think about why he threw his lightsaber away. He did not leave himself defenseless because he was suddenly overcome by suicidal tendancies... Luke was paying close attention to his father's feelings, especially after he spared Vader's life just as the Emperor was crowing for Luke to kill Vader and take his place. He knew, he could feel how close his father was and so he made a choice, the most difficult and the best possible choice if you think about it and he triumphed completely over Vader, Palpatine and the dark side.

 

When I ask how Luke got so powerful with so little training that is what I really mean, that was power, the power of the Jedi. Many before Luke, including his own father never mastered that power and fell, but Luke did not. And all with a few weeks of Jedi training... remarkable.

 

 

 

Kilkanon

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Here's my unorthodox answer based on all the movies together, prequels included. Luke was able to make such decisions and be "powerful" precisely BECAUSE he had so little training. Think about it. The choice he made to believe in the good in Vader was NOT an typical Jedi decision. No way in hell Yoda would have done it. Such attachments are NOT the way of the old Jedi. The decision to leave his training with Yoda to save his friends was NOT the decision of a traditional Jedi, because once again, attachments are forbidden. Luke is a different kind of Jedi than Yoda and Obi Wan were. The Old Jedi Order was deficient in its teachings. The Chosen One, Vader, brought balance to the Force, and the Order, by exposing that flaw and bringing about Luke, who would become and train the true Jedi, who know that attachments are not something to flee from. It is precisely this difference, which never would have come about if he had years and years of training, that allowed Luke to win his most important victory.

[Kilkanon]

Here's my unorthodox answer based on all the movies together, prequels included. Luke was able to make such decisions and be "powerful" precisely BECAUSE he had so little training. Think about it. The choice he made to believe in the good in Vader was NOT an typical Jedi decision. No way in hell Yoda would have done it. Such attachments are NOT the way of the old Jedi. The decision to leave his training with Yoda to save his friends was NOT the decision of a traditional Jedi, because once again, attachments are forbidden. Luke is a different kind of Jedi than Yoda and Obi Wan were. The Old Jedi Order was deficient in its teachings. The Chosen One, Vader, brought balance to the Force, and the Order, by exposing that flaw and bringing about Luke, who would become and train the true Jedi, who know that attachments are not something to flee from. It is precisely this difference, which never would have come about if he had years and years of training, that allowed Luke to win his most important victory.

 

Mahf, I believe you are correct and daresay I couldn't say it better myself. My original post was made in the interests if finding an official answer to this question but as none is available I would say that this fills in many of the blanks.

 

Kilkanon

[metadigital]

Nope. FS-iveness isn't necessarily hereditary, SteveThaiBinh.

 

A group of rabid gizka could evolve into the most powerful Jedi ever, as far as genetics is concerned.

 

The Force touches ALL LIFE, not just Force Sensitives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not necessarily hereditary, I agree. The most powerful force user could suddenly spring from a family with no history of force-sensitivity. That doesn't preclude the possibility that strong force-users tend to have strong force-user children. Since so few Jedi have children, there's little evidence either way. But I thought I remembered Kreia saying something along these lines...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, if we forget those pesky midichlorines you are correct. But With the little buggers, then there must be a genetic link.

Mendel's Laws tell us even if the genetic condition is caused by a recessive gene, like blue eyes, it would still be carried by the offspring. (And it would follow Mendel's Laws to plot the genetic distribution of recessive character traits, so that if two parents both had the recessive gene they would, on average, have two of their four children Force Sensitve.)

 

Ditto for the Rakasha and their breeding out of FSness.

 

Unless it is a random mutation in the gene sequence that produces the Force Sensitivity. Which would indicate that there is perhaps an extra genetic base element (otherwise we would all be a lot more personally familiar with it). Which in turn tells me that there might even be other consequences (different combinations of this extra base with the other bases) that might even prove toxic.

 

Stupid midichlorines. Just clone the dumb things and inject them into your Sith Lord and make him more doped up than a Tour de France competitor. Kick any Jedi's ambitions.

[Darth Coran]

I always thought the same thing,if midichlorians are in the bloodstream,why did not just clone enough midichlorians for each jedi so that you have a whole ordr of yodas...than again considering some jedi go dark this could be a problem,while on the subject of cloning and cloning midichlorians,why not just clone a grand army of the republic full of yodas?if you say,triple the amount of original yoda's midichlorians along with his same mind,just less indiviuality,than they could've stormed palpatine's ass before he could turn Anakin into Vader.

[HK-47 MK II]

Didn't GL say putting midichlorians into episode 1 turned into a really big headache for him with fan questions and he freely admits it was a mistake made by the scriptwriters.

 

I suppose you could treat the force like meditation, where it doesn't matter who you are or where you came from you can learn to be good at meditation it is not genetically predetermined. See buddhist monks for religious link.

 

Ah but my young padawan the force runs stronk in families; my father had it, i have it and my sister has it. So probably your mama had it too and she died, so did Anakin's mama and it didn't save them, I don't hold out much hope for leia since women with the force tend to die off quicker than the men, at least in the films. Linking with KOTOR jedi aren't allowed to breed, maybe they're like terry prachett's wizards in that regard which is how you arrive at uber force users.

 

Or maybe the simpsons had it right and i've been hearing wrong and it should be use the forks not force and just make a pair of +6 vorpal tridents that shoot d6 fireballs out every other round. This would make most sense, for because whoever possesed the two forks would be the most powerful jedi. Did i mention that they are invisible forks cause you never see them.

 

I digress.

[metadigital]

Didn't GL say putting midichlorians into episode 1 turned into a really big headache for him with fan questions and he freely admits it was a mistake made by the scriptwriters. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If he didn't then he should. Still, it's a little late in the day: it was a pretty major plot device in the first episode.

I suppose you could treat the force like meditation, where it doesn't matter who you are or where you came from you can learn to be good at meditation it is not genetically predetermined.  See buddhist monks for religious link.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, with some sort of physical component that facilitates the Force Sensitivity -- just not a blinking hormone / neurotransmitter / blood component. I guess you might be able to exaplin it having an effect that can be measured by some blood-by product, but I think that's reaching ...

Ah but my young padawan the force runs stronk in families; my father had it, i have it and my sister has it.  So probably your mama had it too and she died, so did Anakin's mama and it didn't save them, I don't hold out much hope for leia since women with the force tend to die off quicker than the men, at least in the films.  Linking with KOTOR jedi aren't allowed to breed, maybe they're like terry prachett's wizards in that regard which is how you arrive at uber force users.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Come to think of it, there seems to be quite a theme existient in the OT. Of course, this could be explained differently, if we remove the stupid midichlorians -- did some say Thetans

[The Great Phantom]

Nope. FS-iveness isn't necessarily hereditary, SteveThaiBinh.

 

A group of rabid gizka could evolve into the most powerful Jedi ever, as far as genetics is concerned.

 

The Force touches ALL LIFE, not just Force Sensitives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not necessarily hereditary, I agree. The most powerful force user could suddenly spring from a family with no history of force-sensitivity. That doesn't preclude the possibility that strong force-users tend to have strong force-user children. Since so few Jedi have children, there's little evidence either way. But I thought I remembered Kreia saying something along these lines...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, if the parents are FS's, then the kid will be stalked by the Jedi for the next 2 years until they can decide if they are FS, or not.

 

Jedi families used to have kids all the time, and there was one family (on Taris, it was that headband thing) where 1 or 2 out of every generation were FS's, but the rest weren't. That shows that MAYBE somewhere in their lineage resides a powerful Jedi, but not necessarily.

 

Maybe that's the next step of Mission's plan: To discover a Force Sensitive Gizka and position them as spy(s) within the Jedi Council, in order to slowly continue the Republic's downfall. But, in the end, it will be her cousin, Palpatine, that rules, all because of a stupid shoe sale on Tatooine... but I digress.

[metadigital]

I thought there was no genetic component at all.

 

Totally random. Force Sensitive -- hey, I can levitate! Perhaps there might be a ripple effect, such that offspring of a Jedi might be close enough to be "infected" with the Force Sensitivity, too. (What about those adopted out? Then again, caging all the promising young ones together in a geogpraphically contained place might help them concentrate The Force.)

 

And I knew Mission shouldn't have bought all those shoes -- Dustil and his big shoe empire idea. Sheesh. "

[The Great Phantom]

That's the hidden moral of the Kotor series:

 

"Don't buy your shoes if you can kill your cousin."

 

[Dark Wastl]

I always thought the same thing,if midichlorians are in the bloodstream,why did not just clone enough midichlorians for each jedi so that you have a whole ordr of yodas...than again considering some jedi go dark this could be a problem,while on the subject of cloning and cloning midichlorians,why not just clone a grand army of the republic full of yodas?if you say,triple the amount of original yoda's midichlorians along with his same mind,just less indiviuality,than they could've stormed palpatine's ass before he could turn Anakin into Vader.

 

Midichlorians are like mitochondria, you can't simply clone them, it wouldn't work.

It's all about the concentration. It isn't really possible to double or triple the concentration of a whole body.

 

The concept of midichlorians isn't stupid at all and doesn't change the force in the slightest...

[metadigital]

I always thought the same thing,if midichlorians are in the bloodstream,why did not just clone enough midichlorians for each jedi so that you have a whole ordr of yodas...than again considering some jedi go dark this could be a problem,while on the subject of cloning and cloning midichlorians,why not just clone a grand army of the republic full of yodas?if you say,triple the amount of original yoda's midichlorians along with his same mind,just less indiviuality,than they could've stormed palpatine's ass before he could turn Anakin into Vader.

 

Midichlorians are like mitochondria, you can't simply clone them, it wouldn't work.

It's all about the concentration. It isn't really possible to double or triple the concentration of a whole body.

 

The concept of midichlorians isn't stupid at all and doesn't change the force in the slightest...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Long distance athletes have more "slow twitch" muscle fibre than, say sprinters who have more "fast twitch" muscle fibres. Athletes tend to have athletic offspring. That in itself is a form of selective breeding, like with race horses. If you can "selectively breed" a genetic component, like muscle fibres, then you can surely selectively breed a denser mitochondrial volume in the cells. And if you can selectively breed it, you can clone it. (Just because we can't do it at the end of the twentieth century doesn't mean we won't ever be able to do it. Look at how fast illicit doping technology for performance enhancement is advancing in world sports.) Mitochondria are still predetermined by your genetic code, too.

 

Okay, maybe I was being a tad facetious (moi?) comparing them to hormones. But the dumbed-down dialogue in Ep.1 suggested it in the first place.

 

Actually, one thought from dear old FarimirK was that these midichlorians were actually beings. (Or at least our dimensional manifestation of multi-dimensional beings.)

 

That is an interesting concept, with lots of scope for exploration; although it does throw the cat amongst the pigeons and spill that can of worms all over the shoe store floor.

 

"