what is kreia's true aim?

[Helton]

This is a paraphrased version of what she says.

 

The Mandalorian Wars was a series of atrocities which masked a war of conversion which culminated in one final atrocity which NO MAN{Jedi, rather} walked away from SAVE ONE. That is what she said. No person survived Malachor, no one there turned to the darkside because they all died, save the Exile.

 

Now, some interpretation is required, as I do not believe the Exile was actually on Malachor, or the gravity would have crushed him as well. But, he felt the crushing gravity of Malachor 1000s of times over, and that is how it makes sense.

 

Same conversation, talk to the council, they will tell you what happened on Malachor. The conversion to the dark side happened throughout the war, Malachor was it's climax. It is possible (HK dialogue? I don't recall) that Revan knew what would happen there (he did, as he planned to use it to convert others later) and sent those he did not trust to that battle. But, none felt what the Exile felt, everyone on the planet died.

 

{}-edit

[The Great Phantom]

The War was one of conversion, but that was not the reason the Exile cut himself off, Zilod. I'm getting tired of referring to human nature, so I'll let the cavalry (Helton and Wyked, for now ) explain...

[Zilod]

This is a paraphrased version of what she says.

 

The Mandalorian Wars was a series of atrocities which masked a war of conversion which culminated in one final atrocity which NO MAN walked away from SAVE ONE. That is what she said.

 

no jedi is different than no man

and also you are exluding all the part she says what was Revan plans that imply that he "built" malachor for that purpose...

[Zilod]

The War was one of conversion, but that was not the reason the Exile cut himself off, Zilod.

 

where i said that or said you said that?

 

i'm speaking about Revan plan not referring to the Exile in any way when i speak about war.

[Helton]

no jedi is different than no man

and also you are exluding all the part she says what was Revan plans that imply that he "built" malachor for that purpose...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ah, yes, "which no jedi could walk away from... save one." I read quickly the first time, sorry. Still, it was the gravity which killed them, not the screams. The screams were caused by those dieing Jedi, it would not make sense for them to die of the same thing.

 

And I did alude to the part about Revan. The atrocity at Malachor is not what converted all of those people. Afterwards, Revan descended back down to Malachor, where the deaths of so many could simply over-come the will of any Jedi who wished to resist them. That is how he converted the Jedi he fought later (the ones Atton captured).

 

But, you have to accept it, the gravity was strong enough to rip ships capable of inter-stellar travel right out of orbit, no living thing could have survived that.

[The Great Phantom]

Except Nihilus, presumably...

[Helton]

Except Nihilus, presumably...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Read: "living thing".

 

Nihlus died on Malachor, what brought him back, I'm not sure.

[The Great Phantom]

That is why he needs to feed on living things connection through the Force. He cuts off whatever connection the Force has with Life, and sucks them both. The Exile only reaches through others into the Force...

 

Off-topic: Is it bad if the smell of gasoline in my house is so bad I have a headache?

[Helton]

That is why he needs to feed on living things connection through the Force. He cuts off whatever connection the Force has with Life, and sucks them both. The Exile only reaches through others into the Force...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Er... On second thought, I think one epic off-topic discussion is enough for one thread, let's save our theories on Nihlus and Nihlus\=Exile for another thread, as I know we're going to disagree.

 

Off-topic: Is it bad if the smell of gasoline in my house is so bad I have a headache?

 

Maybe?

[Zilod]

ships immediately near malachor crashed on it

the ones out of the range of the generator haven't crushed.

 

i think we can suppose that the exile (who haven't crashed or was on the planet or dunno) was not alone

 

he was fighting with other jedis so for what you say they had not to die on malachor.

 

some mins and i try to quote the dialogue...

[SteveThaiBinh]

The Mandalorian Wars was a series of atrocities which masked a war of conversion which culminated in one final atrocity which NO MAN (correction: Jedi) walked away from SAVE ONE.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Except Nihilus, presumably...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Bao-Dur was there too, I think. He said that he turned and looked at the Exile's face as he/she ordered the use of the Mass Shadow Generator. And Bao-Dur, though not a Jedi, is force sensitive, so any eruption of evil energy should have affected him too. It did, I suppose, in that he was apparently really angry for several years afterwards. Perhaps whatever shields him from Kreia's mind-spying also protected him from the full effect.

[The Great Phantom]

'Cavalry' hold the discussion. I'll be back later!

[The Great Phantom]

Bao's a Zabrak, and Kreia herself says that Alien minds work different than humans, like they're on a different 'frequency'.

[Helton]

Bao's a Zabrak, and Kreia herself says that Alien minds work different than humans, like they're on a different 'frequency'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"Understandable, considering I was the only one."

 

Dur is pretty darn mysterious, and we don't know where he "triggered" it from, he may have been safe a lightyear away for all we know.

[tmp]

This is a paraphrased version of what she says.

 

The Mandalorian Wars was a series of atrocities which masked a war of conversion which culminated in one final atrocity which NO MAN walked away from SAVE ONE. That is what she said. No person survived Malachor, no one there turned to the darkside because they all died, save the Exile.

The interpretation is quite dependant on where you put the accents, though. ;s

 

"The Mandalorian Wars was a series of atrocities which masked a war of conversion which culminated in one final atrocity which no man walked away from save one."

 

The war was a war of Jedi conversion -- Revan were putting the Jedi that followed her through events which were giving them a 'taste' of dark side, to break them and turn them into blind followers (possibly in the war to come with the remaining Jedi and then maybe with the 'true Sith') What was arranged at M5 was mass murder on such scale, a siren song of the dark side that was so strong that no Jedi could ignore it anymore, no Jedi could just walk away from it. They'd either give in to the power they got to experience, or die. (which was exactly cleaning up the house -- those who still didn't get converted by then were all conveniently gathered at M5, and either would finally become Revan's followers, or die) Only the Exile rejected this lure, for whatever reason(s).

 

The claim that no person survived M5 except for the Exile is simple to refute -- Bao Dur lived. And possibly, if that theory about Kreia's origin is correct, he wasn't the only one.

[Zilod]

Kreia start to explain the mandalorian wars, Revan's plan and what happened to malachor....

 

i chose to try to quote directly and then i try to explain how i perceived it.

 

she start speaking about malachor,

 

"there is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the force runs strong, is something of the siths but it was fuelled by war"

she is describing Mlachor, it is a dark side place fuelled by the death and by the

 

war, Malachor (and probably trayus academy) where alredy dark places, but was during the final battle that the war and death feed them trosforming it to what it si now.

 

 

"it corrupts all that walks on its surface, drawn them with the power of dark side, it corrupts all life and feed on death"

 

now she describes the corrupting power of malachor, no one can resist to it, its corruption is so strong that it touches all life (i think she is referring even to non jedi, so to republic soildier that followed Revan after the war)

 

even if referred mostly to the war this description is "general" and we know that malachor is working like that even now (atton refers to such dark places as the training/conversion ground that sith are using with the force sensitive guys)

also i think is easy to assume that during the final battle the coruption generated by malachor was much greater than it is now due to the massacre that was happening there.

 

 

"Revan knew the power of such places and the power making them, they can be used to break the will of others, of jedis, promising them power and turning to the dark side."

 

after the description of malachor and its corruption properties she clearly says that these properties where know by Revan who used them for his purposes.

He used (and continue to use) malachor to break the will of the jedis, this is what actually happened during that battle, that corruption made them feel the power of the dark side, submitting them.

 

 

"did you ever wondered how revan corrupted so many of the jedis, so much of the republic, so quicly?"

 

she continue to explain the plain of Revan showing how malachor was functional to his plan.

 

"the mandalorian wars where a series of massacres to mask another war, a war of conversion"

 

here she show the "true" plan of Revan, and how he acted it.

all the war where an excuse to let revan build an army that will follow him regardless of what he had to do.

battle after battle, massacre after massacre the jedis with him began to fall to the dark side, praising the power and hating weakness (as kreia says in another point), this was the plan and at this point the process of conversion began.

 

"culminating in a final atrocity that no jedi could walk away from, save one"

 

she is speaking again about malachor...

malachor is the last step of the process, to complete it Revan needed an atrocity and a dark place so powerfull that no jedi could resist it.

 

no jedi could walk away from imply that from malachor no jedi have returned (save the exile) this doesn't strictly imply that all jedi there phisically died, but that everyone that not died turned to dark side becoming a sith.

 

the corruption got them, now they are sith, no jedi have returned but siths have returned from that place (as we also know because after that battle Revan's fleet, now sith fleet, followed him)

 

"how one can turn away from such power, give up the force and still live"

"it was because you where afraid"

 

now she speak to the exile telling that due to his fear he was "able" to turn away form such power and from the force itself.

(for my vision see the example of the child i made in the other post)

 

is clear that every jedi in Revan's fleet felt malachor corruption everyone that survived was changed by the dark side becoming a sith, the Exile is just the only "jedi" that survived whitout turning to dark side.

 

 

 

now she didn't mention that jedis died due to that corruption, i'm basing it on the stance of HK that says that Revan "cleaned up the house" at malachor V,

is likelly that maybe someone tried to resist to malachor (maybe someone that joined later the war) and we can see during the game the effects that malachor have on such "pure" jedis.

 

before Kreia kills the council she says...

"do you wish to feel the teaching of the mandalorian wars, of all wars, of all tragedies that scream across the galaxy?"

"see it throug the eyes of the exile"

 

i think she is referring to malachor, the reference of tragedies that scream across the galaxy is quite evident, and even when she tells to see them through the eyes of the exile she refers to what he percieved during that battle (the death of other jedis, and the corruption of malachor itself)

 

after that i think she summons for them the corruption of malachor and drain them from the force.

 

"how could you ever hope to know the threat that you would face when you ever walked in the dark places of the galaxy face war and death to such scale"

"echoes that grow in strenght and all that can hear them will become deaf or die"

 

they where not able to resist because of their ignorance, because they always saw tha galaxy filtered by the force and such horros is too much for them

 

there is also the other quote that i don't remember where is stated that tells how was no possible to survive to the screams of people killed by malachor.

 

 

 

 

note that in the end is not so important how many jedi died tring to resist or if all the jedi where corrupted by the force.

the importance was that the choices in that place where 2, to die or to being corrupted, and as we can see all the survivors (exept the exile) become siths, according to Revan plan of conversion.

[The Great Phantom]

This is a DIRECT quote from the game: "If the echoes do not stop, then all that hear them will or be deafened." DIRECT quote. This was Kreia's goal: DEAFENED or DEATH. Granted, there were side effects, like the Exile's Training, etc., but in the End, all of her plans make for this. All the deaths of the Jedi, the continuing Echoes of Malachor V, and Nihilus and Sion's death would have been enough to do this, if the Exile had not stopped them with Kreia's death. It's sorta like in The Core, where you have to fire several nukes at key points, to cause enough ripples. BUT, one wrong one in the right place (Kreia's Death) will send them all spinning out of 'wack', making them valuless.

 

Kreia's reference to the Exile's Eyes is because of the fact that he tore himself away. Once again, she fails to realize that he is a paradox, and isn't normal by ANY means. Since you like quoting the Teachings of Traya so much, here's one for you. "You did it because you had to." She says this at a key point, and she also tells you previously that all the combined echoes, felt on such a level as all of your bonds, would have killed the Exile, or caused him to pull a Nihilus (or something to that effect).

 

As for the Jedi at Malachor V, any ships too close to the planet were destroyed; Mandalorian and Republic alike. This was, indeed, Revan's way of cleaning house. ONLY those whose loyalties were in question were sent that close to the planet. I'm not sure if it was coincidence that the Exile would be the one to detonate the 'bomb'. Perhaps Revan wondered what would happen if all those bonded to the Exile died in a close proximity to him...

 

All of these deaths fed Malachor V, giving it power. I'll elaborate more later.

[Helton]

Zilod, there was no option for the people on Malachor V. It was a gravity well, the pressure was enormous. The pull was strong enough to yank ships out of orbit, and quickly, or they would have been able to activate their engines. No one on Malachor turned to the dark side (save Nihlus, I suppose) because they all died. It was 'cleaning house', as Phantom has said, because no truly loyal troops were sent to that battle. They were involved in different places, namely fighting Mandalore's fleet (not 100% on that, though).

 

It doesn't matter that no one says 'there were no survivors' because it is a given, the gravity crushed the planet, nothing could survive.

 

The Exile was not on the surface, Dur was not on the surface, they were not in orbit. The Exile received the order from Revan, he gave it to Dur, and Dur acted it out. Countless people die, the Exile dies 1000s of times over and cuts himself from the force.

 

Other than that, you have it all right. Revan fought a war of conversion. The entire war was converting his men into exactly what they were fighting to defeat. Instead of defending weakness, they detested it. Revan created Malachor V with all of the people who were slaughtered there. It was not all-corrupting before that.

[Zilod]

This is a DIRECT quote from the game: "If the echoes do not stop, then all that hear them will or be deafened."

 

wait this is out of context, she is telling that after Exile failture on dantooine when he turned out to be just a murderer....

She almost kill the exile saying that something like

 

"you learned nothing"

"you are responsable for all of this and even now events will lead to the destraction because you where unable to listen, to undertand"

"of all i said you have not learnt to listen.."

"you where my only last hope the only one that chould change the future"

 

then she speak about the echoes that the Exile created and she says

"If the echoes do not stop, then all that hear them will or be deafened."

and then something like

"chose the right moment, create the right echo and all shall be destroyed"

 

she is not explaining her plans.... she is blaming the exile because he haven't understand what she taught him!

all of this will result in the destruction of the galaxy, and this will be the gift the exile have brought to the galaxy...

 

she doesn't want that to happen and in the end she says to the exile that he must awaken and hear these echoes and stop them or all will be destroyed.

[Zilod]

It doesn't matter that no one says 'there were no survivors' because it is a given, the gravity crushed the planet, nothing could survive.

 

Generally i agree with you the one inside the weel crashed on the planet and where destroyed, i have no problem with that

 

but this don't imply that the corruption energy of malachor and the scream of the force itself had a range wider than that weel

 

Obi for example feel the destruction of Alderan when he is in hyperspace...

 

 

so as i see it the ships that where near and above malachor (most mandalorians) crashed on the planet, this created such an energy that is spread in the space around the planet, reaching republic ships that where at a distance of security from the generator effects.

 

these ship where not exposed to the gravity weel, but still they where near enought to be invested by the corruption of the planet.

[Helton]

Okay, we're getting somewhere. That's possible. But what I'm saying is that none of the other Jedi felt anything similar to what the Exile felt. Everyone who experienced what happened on Malachor died. The Exile felt it thousands of times, he should have died. If other Jedi sense all of the death, it isn't the same thing. They did not actually feel the pain of dieing a thousand deaths. The Exile did.

 

That's all I was debating.

[Zilod]

jedis where feeling it through the force, the corruption and the screams where carried by the force...

 

if the exile is no more linked to it and become a hole to it he can't hear anymore that screams and corruption.

 

other probable jedis (that tied to resist to dark side) died because their attachment to the force where so strong to be more important than their own life...

they where not able to renunce to the force so the horror got them.

 

the scared exile fled from that dark energy and from the force itself, so was able to survive.

[Helton]

His severing his connection with the force had nothing to do with 'dark energy' though. The pain of dieing thousands of deaths should have killed him, but he severed himself from the force so that he could not feel them anymore. This dark energy theory, if it is what happened (I was under the impression that Revan returned to Malachor after the extreme-gravity effects wore off) would have hit the Exile after he was outside of the force, having no effect on him.

[Zilod]

His severing his connection with the force had nothing to do with 'dark energy' though. The pain of dieing thousands of deaths should have killed him, but he severed himself from the force so that he could not feel them anymore. This dark energy theory, if it is what happened (I was under the impression that Revan returned to Malachor after the extreme-gravity effects wore off) would have hit the Exile after he was outside of the force, having no effect on him.

 

i think that when i speak about screams in the force (and probably even about corruption) i'm speaking even of "the pain of dieing thousands of deaths" because is what jedi where hearing in the force...

 

is a bit like how Ben describes the destruction of alderan, he felt the death of milions of people there as a scream in the force.

 

so i don't see our conclusion very different, i just think that all the jedis felt it, most (or even all) where unable to resist and turned to dark side, some (still loyal to their principles) that tried to resist died (for the reasons above) and the exile that "fled" from it was able to survive.

[Helton]

But what happened to Ben? He got a little wobbily for a minute or two, maybe a headache?

 

I just don't see that as even in the same game as what the Exile experienced...