What the Jedi masters hoped to accomplish

[Zilod]

I guess we disagree about the Exile. I am under the strong impression that the council was wrong, he is not a wound or a hole. The Exile forms strong bonds, Kreia is who I believe on this matter, these bonds have nothing to do with the force. He forms these bonds because he is a leader, not because he is a Jedi. The very fact that these bonds all work both ways is a testament that he is not a wound, but rather a leader.

 

To continue: Why would the exile force the council to leave the force? He trains a possible 4 new force sensitives in this game, he breathes life back into the Jedi order rather than destroy it.

Just to explain a bit my vision.

 

I think that the exile is a real hole, in the game almost all chars consider him that, not just the council but even Visas for example that see the Exile as similar to herself, Kreia see him as the death of the force and call him with various other names that seem to point to that direction and Nihilus can't drain him.

This last thing is quite interesting as the only way that the Exile had to not be destroyed was to have nothing to be drained, so had to be an hole in the force.

 

Note that when i say a hole in the force i'm not considering him as Nihilus, they are really different for the motivation stated above and in wich i think we agree.

 

 

For the bounds i must admit that they are quite a problem for me, sometimes i have the impression that as you say is just his leadership (both Kreia and Visas speak about that) but also in some point of the game i don't think is possible to explain them with just that and they seem to be really something force related.

 

In particular there is a moment on dantooine when Kreia tells to the exile that the sith lords learnt from him to extabilish strong links to drain the essence from the livings (a thing like that), this really imply that he can create some "real force" links.

 

My actual opinion about that is that there are both "force bounds" and leadership inspiration (?), i think the exile use (whitout knowing that) the force to estabilish these bounds, these links are not meant to control (as the council think) but just to makes the exile and the others feel nearer, attuned a sort of form of comunication and understanding of the other by the force.

As said then these links are not used to control the other, but is his natural leadership that makes the other follow him.

 

And here why i think the exile is a threat for the council (or why the council thinks that)

To start the jedi master are wrong as they think the Exile is using his force bounds to manipulate his friends and force them to follow him. (manipulate is also a bad word as in kreia perspective is probably what he is really doing )

So they think that with the time he will estabilish his bounds even with them and will slowly make them leave the force (or maybe even drain their force).

 

This is what i think is their vision that we know is not correct.

 

Is also interesting to consider that probably the exile was really able to do that, but not bu a force link, but just inspiring the others to follow his path, to show that the force is not essential to be a complete as a man and it can be an obstacle.

 

For is friends is a bit different as they are not born jedi they become what they are with their strenghts and fighting in most of their life, so probably they are not blinded and so attached to it as the old jedis.

 

 

As for the council not going to war, that was a mistake. They are the defenders of the republic, and when they were finally given a real responsibility, they flinched. They hesitated and caused the deaths of thousands. Vrook would have you think that Revan caused thousands of more to die, I doubt Revan would have felt the need to turn (and turn his allies) had the council been by his side.

 

You are correct about my assessment of Malak. Revan faultered by not predicting his pupil's betrayal. Had Malak not betrayed, or had it been anticipated(and mitigated) the Republic would be united and strong right now, and prepared for the True Sith threat. However, I wasn't so much blaming Malak as just stating what happened. Revan's plan was messed up because of Malak's betrayal. Who's to blame is of little consequence.

 

There i strongly disagree, in my opinion is more likelly that the real siths counted on a Revan, or anyway that some jedis where changed by the war.

If i remember right is Kreia that speak about that on dantooine, as the jedi fought the mandalorian wars they become more and more "obsessed" by the war itself, they started to hate weakness as the sith do, and in the end they died or turned to be siths.

 

Interesting. I must meditate upon this.

 

My vision about the council decision as not wrong is centered on this idea, for sure if you don't agree with it their decision to hold back seem simply wrong.

[Helton]

Just to explain a bit my vision.

 

I think that the exile is a real hole, in the game almost all chars consider him that, not just the council but even Visas for example that see the Exile as similar to herself, Kreia see him as the death of the force and call him with various other names that seem to point to that direction and Nihilus can't drain him.

This last thing is quite interesting as the only way that the Exile had to not be destroyed was to have nothing to be drained, so had to be an hole in the force.

 

Note that when i say a hole in the force i'm not considering him as Nihilus, they are really different for the motivation stated above and in wich i think we agree.

 

In the Exile we can find the death of the force. He has seperated himself from it.

 

In seperating himself from the force he silences thousands (countless?) screams in his head, he tuned out all of those who died at Malachor and severed his link to them. Why would Nihlus be any different? The Exile is not empty, he very much has a character, and in having that character (not being an empty shell) he has something for Nihlus to feed upon. The Exile survived by severing any connection Nihlus may have to him through the force. We have agreed that Nihlus and the Exile are not the same thing, but perhaps I should elaborate my stance:

 

Nihlus is a hole in the force, the equivalent of a black hole in space. Anything that gets close to him has it's life (the force) absorbed out of them. This is what it means to be a hole in the force. The Exile does not do this, and that means he CANNOT be a hole. He survives, not because there is no life in him, but because he can turn the force off, this is what saved him after Malachor and it is what saves him when confronting Nihlus.

 

And here why i think the exile is a threat for the council (or why the council thinks that)

To start the jedi master are wrong as they think the Exile is using his force bounds to manipulate his friends and force them to follow him. (manipulate is also a bad word as in kreia perspective is probably what he is really doing )

So they think that with the time he will estabilish his bounds even with them and will slowly make them leave the force (or maybe even drain their force).

 

This is what i think is their vision that we know is not correct.

 

I did not get the feeling from the holo that T3 played that anyone but Atris considered the Exile a threat, and conversations with some of the survivors later suggests the contrary. I have no problem with the Jedi sending The Exile into exile. He had already picked that path for himself, just as he had severed himself from the force. The Council just made official what had already been decided, the Exile was no Jedi. At this point I believe the council sees clearly, and while they made (potentially) a mistake by not aiding the Republic during the Mandalorian Wars, their wisdom is not yet compromised. It is the second council meeting, on Dantooine in which they decide to strip you of your powers, that I feel was made while they were blinded. I feel that decision was rash and, naturally, incorrect.

 

My vision about the council decision as not wrong is centered on this idea, for sure if you don't agree with it their decision to hold back seem simply wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I had forgotten that dialogue with Kreia, and it greatly changes my view on the Council's choice vs. Revan's. Both made the choice they felt was correct, and only time will tell if Revan made the correct one (the council's was rendered void due to Revan's, so we will never know if the Council's choice was correct or not). At the moment, though, I still stand with Revan, though I have gained some respect for the Council's decision.

[jedipodo]

The code is flawed, as is the current incarnation of the order. As many have said, the Jedi are not allowed to be human.

 

Not the code is flawed, but the individuals themselves.

 

The young Jedi, who left for war, blindly ran into the trap set by Revan, only waiting for them. They have been warned by wiser men and women, but decided otherwise. So it's rather a problem of authority I think.

[Helton]

Not the code is flawed, but the individuals themselves.

 

The young Jedi, who left for war, blindly ran into the trap set by Revan, only waiting for them. They have been warned by wiser men and women, but decided otherwise. So it's rather a problem of authority I think.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But the code is flawed. Kreia knew it, as did Revan. Atris sees it, so do the Council, though they do little to correct it. The teachings are wrong, and that is why so many leave so easily.

 

Who is to blame? The pupil who knew no better, or the teacher who taught no better? The Jedi Masters, and their never changing code are at fault.

[jedipodo]

Not the code is flawed, but the individuals themselves.

 

The young Jedi, who left for war, blindly ran into the trap set by Revan, only waiting for them. They have been warned by wiser men and women, but decided otherwise. So it's rather a problem of authority I think.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But the code is flawed. Kreia knew it, as did Revan. Atris sees it, so do the Council, though they do little to correct it. The teachings are wrong, and that is why so many leave so easily.

 

Who is to blame? The pupil who knew no better, or the teacher who taught no better? The Jedi Masters, and their never changing code is at fault.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Which code do you refer to exacly?

 

Do you realize, that you mainly enumerate people who addicted to the code of the Sith?

 

And the frustrated Council first thought it was their fault, but it wasn't. IIRC the master on Nar Shaddaa told you, that it isn't that easy.

[Helton]

Unfortunately, there are few Jedi left alive who were not Sith at one time or another (or affiliated with them).

 

I refer to the code as the entire teaching, not the little 5 sentence mission statement. I'm talking about the entire Jedi lifestyle and training techniques.

 

Kreia and Revan saught something greater, and it is too simple to pass them off as Sith, as neither was satisfied with the Sith teachings either. The Exile's old mentor expresses the best view to support my position. The Exile was the only chance they had to find out what was wrong in their teachings. He is very sure that there is something wrong. The fact that so many Jedi fall is evidence enough.

[tennisibguy]

This almost sounds like a debate on existentialism with all the references to taking responsibility for one's actions.

 

Come to think of it, only the Exile really comes to term with personal responsibility. Kreia blames her student's failings on the council, the masters blame you for the failings of their students. In reality, the people who fell have no one to blame but themselves. The Exile is the only one who realizes this and accepts personal responsibility for his/her decisions.

[jedipodo]

Unfortunately, there are few Jedi left alive who were not Sith at one time or another (or affiliated with them).

 

I refer to the code as the entire teaching, not the little 5 sentence mission statement. I'm talking about the entire Jedi lifestyle and training techniques.

 

Kreia and Revan saught something greater, and it is too simple to pass them off as Sith, as neither was satisfied with the Sith teachings either. The Exile's old mentor expresses the best view to support my position. The Exile was the only chance they had to find out what was wrong in their teachings. He is very sure that there is something wrong. The fact that so many Jedi fall is evidence enough.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The only thing Kreia really knows, is that Revan is absent. He never told Kreia nor anybody else where he had gone.

What I really don't get is, why everybody trust in the words of Kreia/Traya. In my opinion she lies from the beginning of, and maybe about the real motivation of Revan and his destination, too.

[Helton]

Generally, if a character in a video game, book, or movie says something definatively, it is true unless action or other characters directly contradict it. If we assume Kreia knew nothing and was lieing the whole time then we have very little, if any, ground to stand on when forming theories...

[jedipodo]

This almost sounds like a debate on existentialism with all the references to taking responsibility for one's actions.

 

Come to think of it, only the Exile really comes to term with personal responsibility.  Kreia blames her student's failings on the council, the masters blame you for the failings of their students.  In reality, the people who fell have no one to blame but themselves.  The Exile is the only one who realizes this and accepts personal responsibility for his/her decisions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You have a point. The Exile is the only one. Kreia even blames the Force itself for all of the failings in the galaxy.

[jedipodo]

Generally, if a character in a video game, book, or movie says something definatively, it is true unless action or other characters directly contradict it. If we assume Kreia knew nothing and was lieing the whole time then we have very little, if any, ground to stand on when forming theories...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, actually, I haven't meant it that way. After finishing the game I simply had the feeling that one shouldn't trust Traya, that is all. My problem with this character is, that at the same time she is the key to the understanding of the plot.