Mahf Posted December 13, 2004 Posted December 13, 2004 Hi all, Been doing some thinking since I finished the game... gonna go ahead and put stuff in spoiler tags since some of it is definitely spoilers... but please post your thoughts those of you interested in some pointless but hopefully intellectualy stimulating and interesting analysis: Reveal hidden contents First, 2 parallels between the Jedi Masters and Sith Lords that I think are interesting because they involve one or the other group acting out of character... Jedi: The Jedi Masters exiled the PC for going to war when they said not to Sith: The Sith exiled Treya for not wanting to go to war and stripped her of the Force. This parallel is obvious, but curious. It seems understandable enough for the Jedi to punish someone with exile, but Isn't it more than a little odd for the Scion and Nihilis not to just kill Kreia? Then Sion spares her again on the ship. Why would the exile her and strip her of the Force rather than kill her? Sith: The Sith are a hidden threat, striking the Jedi from the shadows. Jedi: The Jedi Masters are hidden as well, hoping to draw out the Sith. It is not out of character for Sith in Star Wars to act in secrecy, even if Malak didn't. We've seen Sith in the movies and in EU act in secrecy and shadows before. We've even seen the Jedi hide before, albeit only Obi Wan and Yoda. But normally one side is dominant and visible, like the Jedi for most of star wars history or the Sith in the Original Trilogy, while the other side is hidden due to the other side having an overwhelming advantage, like Sidious and Maul in Episode 1, or Obi Wan and Yoda in Episodes 4, 5 and 6. But in this case, the Sith certainly seem to have a huge advantage (look at all the Sith you killed on Malachor vs. like 4 Jedi remaining) and yet the Sith are still in hiding. This is perhaps nothing, but I think it does add into the fact that the Jedi and the Sith in this time period are both functioning in the same role. Another perhaps minor question: Why is it that Bastila is not among the "hidden Jedi" that you find? A simple answer would be that she was too killable in the first game so they couldn't make her too important in this one. But what did they do with her character? Has she left the Jedi Order? Why would SHE not seek out the PC or seek out the hidden Jedi Masters? She's clearly not a Sith (if you pick LS Male Revan at least) but these are nonetheless interesting questions. Ahh well. Do with them what you like. If you think these questions are stupid and a waste of time, then feel free to say so, but hopefully at least a few people will think of something interesting to say.
Darth_Gandalf Posted December 13, 2004 Posted December 13, 2004 Bastila appears in a cameo a couple times. It's all dependent on certain things. She talks to Carth Onasi once wile you're there. "You shall not pass!"
Mahf Posted December 13, 2004 Author Posted December 13, 2004 Darth_Gandalf said: Bastila appears in a cameo a couple times. It's all dependent on certain things. She talks to Carth Onasi once wile you're there. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Spoilers: I know that, and that's the surprising thing. In other words, it would make sense that she's not trying to find you or trying to find the Jedi Masters if she's dead, but she's not. Why is she there and why isn't she doing the things you would expect her to be doing? Its weird. Did she leave the order at some point? Or is she in hiding with Carth? etc. etc.
Maria Caliban Posted December 13, 2004 Posted December 13, 2004 *SPOILER* I'm assuming she's with Reven. That might not have been Reven's desire but the bond they shared might make it very difficult for him/her to avoid her. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.
Mahf Posted December 13, 2004 Author Posted December 13, 2004 Maria Caliban said: *SPOILER* I'm assuming she's with Reven. That might not have been Reven's desire but the bond they shared might make it very difficult for him/her to avoid her. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Spoiler: No, she's not with Revan. She has a cameo with Carth in the game.. That's what I"m saying is weird. Its weird that she's there, with a Republic Admiral, and yet she has made no attempt to find the remaining Jedi Masters or the exile when he/she returned or to save Telos/stop the Ravager or anything. Weird.
Maria Caliban Posted December 13, 2004 Posted December 13, 2004 Spoiler I said that Reven was a LS Female and got no cameo. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.
Mahf Posted December 13, 2004 Author Posted December 13, 2004 Maria Caliban said: Spoiler I said that Reven was a LS Female and got no cameo. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, I've only beaten it once, LS Male with Revan LS Male. But nonetheless, it seems weird to me.
nightcleaver Posted December 13, 2004 Posted December 13, 2004 Mahf said: Reveal hidden contents It is not out of character for Sith in Star Wars to act in secrecy, even if Malak didn't. We've seen Sith in the movies and in EU act in secrecy and shadows before. We've even seen the Jedi hide before, albeit only Obi Wan and Yoda. But normally one side is dominant and visible, like the Jedi for most of star wars history or the Sith in the Original Trilogy, while the other side is hidden due to the other side having an overwhelming advantage, like Sidious and Maul in Episode 1, or Obi Wan and Yoda in Episodes 4, 5 and 6. But in this case, the Sith certainly seem to have a huge advantage (look at all the Sith you killed on Malachor vs. like 4 Jedi remaining) and yet the Sith are still in hiding. This is perhaps nothing, but I think it does add into the fact that the Jedi and the Sith in this time period are both functioning in the same role. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Maybe the Jedi Order of the OT just didn't know any better. Or maybe they thought to lose to much by not continuing their diplomatic aid with the republic, and were too concerned with political relations to realize the only smart thing to do was hide and wait for a time to strike back. Reveal hidden contents Perhaps it isn't typical of Jedi to hide, but it seems to be a pattern that they do it when it's the obvious solution, at least. The fundamental of their code is to maintain the light side of the force, not kill themselves on an inability to think in subtlety... To me, it seems that the Jedi Order is only all-knowing and wise in times of peace. When it comes to war, they just don't know how to deal with it. The funny thing is, the Sith are the opposite way around. So much of this game seems to deal with how the Sith and the Jedi are really just two sides of the same coin... and the Force always balances out because of the two. Predators are terrible, but necessary, creatures... and herbivores never have teeth to fight back, though they may have hooves to fend off their advances and cripple them. It's the Jedi's nature to graze in the open, a herd at their back, and the Sith way to hem in the weak. Each by itself fails miserably; the jedi through complacency, the Sith by killing themselves off, but together they bring the only result possible: survival. And Kreia hates that, so she hates the Force. At the same time, she accepts it, recognizes, and tries to use the system to her advantage - ultimately, she fails... and a good thing, at that. Note that I don't feel that way; I just think the Force feels that way, maybe.
Maria Caliban Posted December 13, 2004 Posted December 13, 2004 Nightcleaver, You think she fails? What do you draw that conclusion from? "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.
nightcleaver Posted December 13, 2004 Posted December 13, 2004 Reveal hidden contents It would be nice, maria, if you talked at my level instead of forcing me to think "up" to yours. She fails to kill the Force, yes; that's what I was talking about. I didn't mean that she was a failure; she managed to save and even strengthen you, after all. I didn't have the impression she really . Perhaps her hatred of the force is how the force controls her, uses her to make you stronger in a way, and as a way to be opposite you. If you think that's her goal, perhaps she succeeds. Perhaps all the failures are successes. It would've been far more interesting if you had actually *said* something more specific. You can make people think without telling the person what they said means nothing if they don't explain.
Maria Caliban Posted December 13, 2004 Posted December 13, 2004 Reveal hidden contents You've confused me nightcleaver. I thought we were on the same level. You'll forgive me if my thoughts are a tad tangled here but the last time the Exile 'won' on Malikor V his 'victory' echoed through the universe and roused things that were best left slumbering. Odd how her defeat happened after she got you to lure the Jedi Council into a trap that lead to their demise, after you left Atris dead or half-mad with her Holicrons, and after you killed the other two Sith Lords. It seems to me that the only Force users left are Revan, the Exile, and the 'true' Sith Lords. The very Sith Lords you plan on fighting with Revan. I also find it interesting that given her precognitive ability she wasn't aware you would defeat her. Especially as she was the one who insured you were strong enough to beat her. No, I don't assume that she lost because I've been given no reason to do so yet. We haven't seen the effect of the actions at the end of the story. The 'echoes' that she kept on talking about. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.
sickboycp Posted December 14, 2004 Posted December 14, 2004 Maria Caliban said: Reveal hidden contents It seems to me that the only Force users left are Revan, the Exile, and the 'true' Sith Lords. The very Sith Lords you plan on fighting with Revan. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Reveal hidden contents What about the Jedi you yourself train. Doesn't Kreia say that these are the Lost Jedi who will rebuild the Order?
Tainted Mustard Posted December 14, 2004 Posted December 14, 2004 Maria Caliban said: Reveal hidden contents I also find it interesting that given her precognitive ability she wasn't aware you would defeat her. Especially as she was the one who insured you were strong enough to beat her. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Reveal hidden contents The exile's future cannot be observed through the Force - he is no longer truly a part of it. That is why Kreia has such great admiration for him (or her).
Maria Caliban Posted December 14, 2004 Posted December 14, 2004 You, like Reveal hidden contents Atris , seem no longer qualified to do that. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.
nightcleaver Posted December 14, 2004 Posted December 14, 2004 Reveal hidden contents Handmaiden still is. Bastila... if she lives... still is. Perhaps Atris can, if you spared her and she manages to collect her wits. I think that's perfectly possible, that she collects herself - but I suspect she would just turn away from the Force completely. You might be right, somehow... but we all know that the Force doesn't die, and I think it's pretty clear she did a lot of what she did because she hated the Force... whatever that actually means. Perhaps her true intentions are lost. My opinion, currently, is that Kreia had the intention of using the Force to destroy itself, completely, and she would fight to the death to have that happen. I don't think her precognition was good enough to predict the outcome of that battle.... and she knew she was probably still being used by the force, somehow. I would be interested in what you think her true intentions were, if you have an idea.
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