SW and metaphors

[Rosbjerg]

*mumbles something about Dune*

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You mean "chosen one" similarities? Except for that I don't see too many (except for futuristic settings) that coincide with SW ..

But then again its some time ago since I read Frank's masterpiece ..

[Force Reaper]

Man that Ninja site is funny as hell, especially the hate mail part.

[Laozi]

Man that Ninja site is funny as hell, especially the hate mail part.

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Ya that was my favorite part too, its like some people are born completely without a sense of humor

 

But the shorts are funny too, especially the one where the sun comes up and the ninjas wake up

[Lifthransir Bane]

'Cheat codes don't work in real life (expletive deleted)'

 

I hope 'Robert Hamburger' wrote most of the hate mail himself because I really don't want to ever encounter fools like those people.

 

Bloody marvelous.

[JediMasterThorn]

click here!

 

 

to learn more, this is easily the most awesome site you'll ever find, be sure to answer yes and if you have speaker be sure they're on

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pretty funny, but that kid must be the biggest idiot on the earth

[Kitch]

*mumbles something about Dune*

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You mean "chosen one" similarities? Except for that I don't see too many (except for futuristic settings) that coincide with SW ..

But then again its some time ago since I read Frank's masterpiece ..

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Oh, it's nothing. A lot of people go to some extreme lengths to prove that Star Wars was a complete rip-off of Dune.

[Laozi]

pretty funny, but that kid must be the biggest idiot on the earth   

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Its not a kid, theres a link somewhere on the site to an interview where this lady was trying to sue him and all this other stuff. He talks about how hard it is to try to sound like a kid, but not really be a kid

 

 

Hope that doesn't ruin it for anyone

[Rosbjerg]

*mumbles something about Dune*

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You mean "chosen one" similarities? Except for that I don't see too many (except for futuristic settings) that coincide with SW ..

But then again its some time ago since I read Frank's masterpiece ..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, it's nothing. A lot of people go to some extreme lengths to prove that Star Wars was a complete rip-off of Dune.

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hmm .. heard about it, but never really found it to have much merit .. of course GL borrowed some Sci-fi and Fantasy themes, but to call it a rip-off seems a bit harsh imo ..

[Laozi]

Ya I can see the parallels that just about all sci fi/fantasy shares, but having read Dune(movie blows btw) I just don't see it. There's even more of a gap when you see the initial concepts of both

[Rosbjerg]

Ya I can see the parallels that just about all sci fi/fantasy shares, but having read Dune(movie blows btw) I just don't see it. There's even more of a gap when you see the initial concepts of both

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oh yeah that movie by Lynch where Herbert "helped" by playing a creative consultant, but ended up killing the enitre movie with his stubbornes .. dreadful, couldn't bear watch it all the way through .. saw the mini series, and they were alright imo, but the books really rock!

perhaps there is a parallel between the rise of Paul/Muad'Dib and his "fall" were he becomes distant and to a degree evil by the power he wields and to the rise and fall of Vader, Paul son eventually surpassed him as well.. hmm maybe thats a bit of a reach ..

[Muad'Dib]

There are waaaaay too many rip offs from Dune in SW to post. While some might not see any similarities I see so many that I lost count.

 

While I completely agree SW rip offed Dune, I don't hold it against SW though, after all imitation is the highest form of flattery or so they say.

[Rosbjerg]

There are waaaaay too many rip offs from Dune in SW to post. While some might not see any similarities I see so many that I lost count.

 

While I completely agree SW rip offed Dune, I don't hold it against SW though, after all imitation is the highest form of flattery or so they say.

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I don't really see them .. Examples?

[Muad'Dib]

Ok. just a few of the top of my head here:

 

SW--------Dune

 

1) Prophecy of a chosen savior to bring balance to the Force and frees the galaxy (A combo of 2 Dune prophecies)------Bene Gesserit prophecy of the perfect being (Kwisatz Haderach) and Fremen prophecy of a chosen messiah that brings true freedom to the galaxy (Lisan al Gaib or Mahdi).

 

2) Tatooine------Arrakis.

 

3) Original Sarlacc-------Shai Halud (Sandworm), almost identical except Sarlacc had the tentacles coming from the mouth.

 

4) Jedi's Force Persuasion-----------Bene Gesserit Voice.

 

5) Jedi's Force Speed--------Wierding Way.

 

6) An important mineral mined in the galaxy is spice---------The most important mineral in the galaxy mined is spice.

 

7) Chosen One has twins Luke and Leia----------------Chosen One has twins Leto II and Ghanima.

 

Anakin falls to the Dark Side by helping destroy the Jedi and establish the Empire-------Paul falls from grace as his reign is the cause of a galaxy wide jyhad that kills trillions.

 

9) Anakin is redeemed by son Luke by being brought back to LS---------Paul is redeemed by son Leto II by putting humanity on the Golden Path.

 

10) Vader loses his humanity by becoming mostly machine----------Leto II loses his humanity by becoming the Sandworm hybrid.

 

11) Emperor Palpatine has elite terror troops that subjugate the galaxy Stormtroopers (Even though after the opening of Ep4 they ended up sucking)------Emperor Shaddam Corrino IV has elite terror troops subjugating the galaxy Sardaukar.

 

12) Blind Jedi can see through the Force--------Blinded Paul could see through Oracular vision? (Can't recall the name of it).

 

This next one is only a possible theory in SW:

 

13) Anakin finishies being lost to the DS after the death of beloved wife Padme-----Paul loses his messiah-like powers after the death of beloved wife Chani.

 

Those are just off the top of my head, there are plenty more I can't think off right now. Of course they're not direct duplicates but clearly similarities I can see borrowed or inspired by Dune.

[Rosbjerg]

first of all .. Sci-fi will always have similarites, becuase the have to use some of the same story effects..

 

1) prophecy ..

This I agree with .. There are alot of similarities here in the balance part! but the messiah and "chosen one" angle could however be inspired from most religions .. To a degree christianity! so I think both GL and FH borrowed this part from other sources .. As the Matrix did!

 

2) tatooine - Arrakis

yes they are both desert plantes .. but I think thats more of a coincidence than plagiarism!

 

6)

Spice in SW? never heard of it .. but this of course doesn't mean its not there and if it is, then I agree with you totally .. because thats too similar to be a coincidence!

 

7)

although this immediatly could stand out as a copy of Dune .. I think both writers were inspired from other sources imo.. In old medieval times twins with opposite sex was regarded as freaks of nature and unlucky because they would only happen because of Withcraft! and twins are to this day regarded as something special .. out of the ordinary! so its an effective way to point out, storywise, that these two will play an important role ..

 

you will always have a great figure fall to evil .. its very common to have a hero fall to "the dark side" and in the end be redeemed .. by his son (or the hero of the story) or by some other means ..

 

9)

similar to 8

 

10)

common to use the Voltaire qoute "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" .. So I think both writers used this as a powerful moral statement, also to use the redemtion angle..

 

11)

you will always have an elite group that poses a threat under the control of the main evil.. LOTR the ring-wraiths .. Matrix the Agents etc.

 

13)

You need a reason for a good man to fall to the path of evil .. and nothing is more believalbe than the loss of someone close to him! although this could be inspired from Dune, its also a very used story element ..

 

Those I have not commented on I agree with you about ..

[Sorall Loskannen]

The spice is there, but it is not one of the most important minerals in the galaxy. It is a highly addictive drug that makes you believe you can use the force. In Dune, doesn't the spice make it so that they are able to use hyperspace or something (I've only seen the movies)?

That is pretty similar.

 

As a point of note: the spice in the Star Wars movies is only referenced once by C3PO when he is whining that he and R2 could be sent to the spice mines of Kessel (I think, but I haven't seen the Original Trilogy in awhile). It is only really expanded upon in the books.

[Laozi]

1- Perfect being prophecy non existant in star wars, Anakin in no way is perfect only a tool, and as I know of Luke never had a prophecy about him and he more or less brings freedom to the galaxy

 

2- Deserts are deserts, by that rational any desert in sci fi is plagerism

 

3 -Its not like the sarlacc was a major player in the film I get the impression that it couldn't even move

 

4- This is something that has existed in mythos since the beginning of man, the fact that it could be used by all jedis and not just gods or those prophesized about actually shows a little more originality

 

5- Force speed though I'm sure the jedis move faster then humanly possible in the movies, is only a video game concept, I don't remember Yoda telling Luke, "Now use your force speed."

 

6- The importants of spice is not prominent at all in Star wars. Its not originally Dune either, lots of mythes of the spice brought from the east were established in Europe during there alchemy craze

 

7- The idea of the epic or prophecized twins is nothing new, Apollo & Artemis, Aegyptus & Danaus, Hercules & Iphicles, Castor & Polydeuces all greek/ Remus & Romulus roman/ Baldur & Hoder norse

Sorry if I speled any of these wrong, but as you can see this idea is by no means originally Dune

 

8- No need to comment very elemntary to have conflict

 

9- blame Joesph Campbell

 

10- Not much of a similarity there

 

11- Navy seals, army rangers, marine recon

 

12- Seeing with your faith sounds more christian than anything

 

13- It say in episode 6 that Obi-Won hid the twins from him, so its safe to assume that Vader never knew he had son till Lukew showed up and he didn't know about Leia until the fight on the Death Star. Almost certainly he didn't just miss the fact that she was pregnant, so I think that she probaly ran off after he turned to the dark side

[Muad'Dib]

@Sorall - You are correct that the spice in SW is not an important mineral at the level the Dune spice is. However, according to the info I found on SW spice, there are several types of it, only 1 or 2 are used as hallucigenics, I'm not sure but I think I read about one spice type used for medicinal purposes. In Dune, spice allowed the navigators to fold space thereby allowing Interstellar travel, it allowed the Bene Gesserit Sisters to have their mind powers, it extended the life of anyone who consumed it (Like a drink or food), and obviously was the center of the entire Empire's commerce. I know they aren't the same, I said they are both mineable minerals which have importance in their universes, albeit one more than the other.

 

@Rosbjerg - To me, there are just too many similarities to dismiss as mere coincidence. I completely agree they aren't carbon copies but they overall themes and their developments are too similar in my opinion to say that one wasn't influenced or inspired by the other. Still I don't think any less of SW because I believe it copies Dune in a lot of things, I love both quite equally.

 

@Laozi - On point:

 

1. I never said Anakin was prophecized to be the perfect being, he is prophecized as a messiah-like chosen who will bring balance to the Force, and it is he (Anakin) not Luke that brigns freedom to the galaxy by redeeming himslef and killing Palpatine. Luke is actually just the instrument of Anakin's redemption, Anakin is after all the central figure in SW. Paul of Dune is born under 2 prophecies, for the Bene Gesserit he is hoped to be the Kwisatz Haderach or perfect being and the Fremen believe he will be the Mahdi or savior who will lead them to freedom or paradise. While you may not see the resemblance in the overall storyarc and the meaning of the prophecies between the two characters I see great similarity.

 

2. Tatooine and Arrakis are similar in more than just being desert planets. They are similar in the sheer importance they share within their respective stories. Both worlds are considered wastelands and undesirable. Yet both share the fact that they hold great importance to the stories. Arrakis of course is the only source of spice in the entire galaxy thus making it invaluable. Tatooine meanwhile may not have such a rich export, yet so many important things happen there or so many characters come from there that the world stands out against a supposed major world like say Corellia which has never even been seen in the movies.

 

3. My point is that the two creatures were virtually identical. The way 3PO describes the Sarlacc in RotJ is that the Pit of Carckoon is where the mighty Sarlacc makes his nesting place or something like that. This leads me to believe the Sarlacc merely nests there and isn't trapped there. Nevertheless the comment was that both are just really big desert sandworms.

 

4. I fail to see what that has to do with the fact that both powers are really similar to each other. Those gifted with Force powers can "influence" (control to an extent really) those with weaker minds. Those that learn the voice can do the same thing.

 

5. Force speed was seen in Ep1 when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon run from the Droidekas aboard the Trade Federation ship in the beginning. Again basically the powers are both faster than normal human movements, I see them as the same thing. I'm not sayinbg this is original or independent to Dune, vampires sometimes have this as well as Superman and the Flash.

 

6. See above my answer to Sorall.

 

7. Dune was clearly inspired by the Greek tragedies. The protagonists Atreides are not only based on but written as directly related to Atreus, the father of King Agamemnon and Menaleus from the Iliad. Dune is one huge Greek tragedy, I never meant to imply that anything written in it was by any means 100% original. Still both stories' (Dune and SW) original protagonist have twin children, a male and female, so even it has been done by many mythological books before I still find them similar when comparing both SW and Dune.

 

8. True, but I find a great similarity in the fact that the original protagonist falls from grace in both stories. Either story could have had as much conflict without converting their protagonist into a villain or in the case of Paul someone whose reign brought forth the death of countless. The point is both protagonists similarly go from heroes to bringing about dark times.

 

9. Ok I blame him....j/k lol. I find similar that both fathers were redeemed by the actions of their sons.

 

10. While I realize it wouldn't be as similar as say if Paul had been the one to turn into God Emperor and lose his humanity, I still find it similar that the two characters lost their humanity, only in different ways. I know there's not much but I see at least some.

 

11. And your point is? So you named a bunch of small, elite, tactical units. My point was that I found it similar that both universes were subjugated by a vast army controlled by their Emperors; SW's Stormtroopers and Dune's Sardaukar. The fact they were elite is irrelevant, the point is they both were huge armies that oppressed the universe under tyrants and so I find that similar.

 

12. I fail to see your point here. I found it similar that in SW you can see with the Force if you are blind where in Dune Paul who had been blinded could still see because of his abilities of being the Kwisatz Haderach. I don't really see a religious connection in the comparison, unless you are interpreting the Force as a religion which it isn't exactly or Paul's powers as being religiously founded which they weren't.

 

13. Not sure what you mean here either sorry. What I referred to was the possibility that both protagonists fall from grace after the death of their wives, thus making it similar. Though going bad because they killed your spouse is original to neither story, in the context of my comparison as sci-fi stories I find them similar. And as for Vader not knowig about Leia and such, that's just to explain how many plot holes the OT has. Along with the prequels, the OT itself had a bunch of stuff that doesn't make sense or was made up without being planned. If you look at Vader fro Ep4 he is very different from Vader in Ep5, if you look at Ep4 it was setting up Luke to have a revenge story with Vader for killing his father, not that Vader was his father, they made that up for 5 I'm sure. The same way the movies were setting up a love triangle between Luke, Leia and Han, the twin thing was probably made up between 5 and 6.

 

It isn't just the content of the similarities, it's the amount of similarities which makes me feel that there was very strong borrowing, inspiring, influencing, call it what you will of Dune in SW. You may disagree and that's cool, this is just my opinion. Anywho sorry for the long post!

[Laozi]

No I wouldn't argue against Star Wars being influenced by Dune, like you I love them both, but I would say also that Lucas had to have the bulk of his ideas before being exposed to Dune, conjecture, I know. To be sincere I would probaly be very dissapointed though if Lucas came out and said he was very influenced by Dune, (lets be clear, I mean the book, not the movie, because well the transition was mediocre)

 

As for 13 I would say that the point being that Anakin never really know definitively what happen to Padme, I'm sure he knew of her death, being force sensative, but the fact that she must have rejected him futhered his descent, not caused it.

[SilentSentinel7]

I can agree with alot of what you say ther are paraell's to say the leaste in both SW an Dune however...

 

4) a Jedi isn't supposed to use the "mind trick" to kill people

 

Weak minded sap:"Hahaha die jedi"

Jedi:"Look there's a cliff jump and go to a better life"

Weak minded sap:"Can't resist"

*Jumps* *splat*

Jedi:"hey Sam how about lunch?"

 

I'm not naively saying they can't I'm just saing their suppose to help people not harm like with Obi-wan and that kid selling death sticks

 

Kid:*wicked smile*"Want some death sticks"

Obi-wan:"You don't want to sell me death sticks"

Kid:"I don't want to sell you death sticks"

Obi-wan:"you want to go home and rethink your life"

Kid:"I want to go home and rethink my life"

 

the wierding way you can use the "voice" to cause serious damage to a body or destroy the mind *I've only watched the movies forgive my ignorance*

 

6) I always thought spice in the Dune universe as a nessecity like food or water only through KOTOR did it say *haven't read an EU books plz forgive the ignorance again* that the exchange made and harvested spice it was more of a narchotic than an accual nessecity....but if your hooked i guess it becomes one but thats another story

 

8)The Jedi are considered a religion in the SW universe remember from A New Hope Vader and that one Admiral/Senator

"You my friend are all that's left of their Religion" taken somewhat out of context but the rest of the Galaxy belives the Jedi are a sort of religion given some sort of magic or why would that one guy spout off about Lord vader's "Sorcerer ways" well before getting choked

Vader:"I find your lack of faith disturbing"

 

12) blind jedi useing the force to see sorta makes sense Paul loses his ability to see after his wife dies perhaps it looks better in the mini seires where his eyes go completely black eh maybe this ones a weak case but I dissagree with you on this one

 

anywayz sorry for the long post everyone