Considerations for Cooperative Gameplay

[alanschu]

I'm just posting a message here that I would like to let Obsidian (and other developers) that I would like to see more considerations for cooperative gameplay modes.

 

Cooperative gameplay is that intangible experience that can elevate how one perceives the game they are playing. I suspect that this has something to do with the fact that you are sharing the experience with someone else, and situations can be dealt with creatively that limiting AI are unable to do. I find that it can take a subpar game (at its core), and make it quite enjoyable. Consider the following games for example

 

Diablo 1/2

Serious Sam

Any MMORPG

 

Looking at just their elements, how many of them are really "good" games.

 

Diablo is a game with an ok story and an RPG-lite atmosphere of hack-and-slash. But let 3 of your friends join in with you, and the whole experience becomes that much more personal. A big accomplishment is celebrated by screams of joy. Teammates watch with angst/humour/fear/exhilaration as that one last teammate tries to escape a no-win situation. The exhilaration of finding some new mystical artifact. Even when pairing up with total strangers over the net, a shared sense of accomplishment for completing an act (if you're with the right group of players) is a satisfying experience. You and your teammates contributed in your own way, relying on each other to overcome each other's shortcomings

 

Serious Sam is a very run of the mill shooter, with the occasional creative enemy (and often really, BIG enemy). But add a few friends to the mix, and it isn't just mindless shooting, but a collaborative effort to overcome the foes, where seeing a teammate grab his minigun and get down-and-dirty with the hordes provides an exciting atmosphere, as you listen to him trash talk the bad guys and are more willing to get into the situation. Someone is much more likely to talk trash with their friends at the big uber-boss than by themselves (well...at least not as loud ). The entire reason I played this game was for the co-op.

 

MMORPGs are a good indicator as well. The entire success of their game pretty much depends on creating a good social environment to play in. Everquest as a single player game would not be as good. Overlooking the fact that the world would seem very unpopulated, at its core the quests tend to fairly plain and generic, and it's basically just a game of levelling up since there is no story. But the success of the game is the experience shared by the members. Getting that next, really time consuming skill is more satisfying when a group of your friends congratulate you on your accomplishment. A simple dungeon crawl becomes a roleplaying adventure.

 

 

The co-op mode for Halo (XBOX) was very successful, and very popular. It was grounds for public outcry when it was not included in the PC version, and is the exact reason why my roommate did not buy the game (he said after playing co-op on the XBOX, there's no way he could play it any other way).

 

No One Lives Forever 2 had one of the most innovative ideas for their co-op. Basically the co-op had the players take part as operatives for the Agency. Your job was basically as a cleanup crew for Cate Archer. It was neat because all the stuff that Cate did in the single player, was still apparent. Stuff she destroyed was destroyed and whatnot. This creative idea also adds to the cooperative experience since it is not simply replaying the single player game (although in many cases that would be sufficient).

 

Imagine playing Farcry, where your friend has a high vantage point and covers you with a sniper rifle, spotting enemy troop formations and allowing you an edge in sneaking past the patrols. Given that a fight breaks out, you have that "angel on you wings" that can help you get out of that tight situation. I loved playing Delta Force (another mediocre game) with two of my friends, since one of us played sniper/spotter, one was heavy gunner, and one was a rifleman (with M4/M203). Took boring, mediocre gameplay and made it more fun with the social element.

 

My roommate and I both intend to buy Full Spectrum Warrior, since after playing the Demo, we realized there is support for coop. He had never even really heard of the game, it was immediately intrigued simply because coop existed.

 

 

 

As a counterpoint, I do understand that implementing cooperative games does mean more work...particularly if the game is not multiplayer to begin with (say with Knights of the Old Republic). I'm not saying that all games should be co-op, but there are many games out there where simply allowing another entity would make the game so much more enjoyable. There are also storyline considerations that have to be taken into effect, as well as scripting. What happens if player X activates a trigger and whatnot. All I am asking for is additional consideration for co-op as being perhaps a little more mainstream than people are realizing.

 

With games such as Counterstrike and other Team Based Deathmatch games, clearly there is some sort of market for playing with someone rather than just against them. But is there still a market for those that wish to share a single player experience with a friend? I would argue yes. With the increased use of the internet, and increased availability of affordable highspeed Internet, people will be much more willing to share an experience with their friends over the internet. Accessible voice transmission software (such as Teamspeak or any other one) helps bring the experience closer together.

 

 

That's my stance on that.

 

I would like to hear any comments from anyone, but in particular I would like to hear from Obsidian members about what their stance is. Some alternative viewpoints as to the limitations of cooperative mode from a technical and administrative standpoint would help us all to understand the state of co-op gameplay.

 

 

 

Respectfully,

 

Allan Schumacher

[alanschu]

Hmmm, I expected more responses. Basing reality on my own experiences has proved me wrong again!

[Gorth]

Hmmm, I expected more responses.  Basing reality on my own experiences has proved me wrong again!

 

Ok, cooperative posting it is then

 

It might just be, that you are already preaching to the choir (me being a bf1942 fan)...

 

I hardly doubt, that anybody denies the fun, that can be had from cooperative gameplay. Only obvious consideration is whether or not the cost/benefit of whatever resources you have to sacrifice, makes it worth implementing in a game.

[mkreku]

I love co-op, as it has made REALLY mediocre games (Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance) fun to play. In the last year, I've seen a slight increase in games that has built-in co-op.. The only problem is that none of those games were the top titles (like Doom 3 or Far Cry) so it might not have as much of an impact as one would like.

 

There are definitely not enough RPG's using co-op. Sacred is a shining exception, but that co-op is so buggy it's almost impossible to play anyhow.

[alanschu]

Agreed.

 

As with your comment Gorth, I am sort of under the impression that co-op isn't included because there isn't as big of a market for it. I think (hopefully) that that is changing now. I think the social aspect of co-op gaming is what makes it so much more fun.

 

I posted it here to hopefully let some of the Powers to Be at Obsidian know that there is at least some interest.

 

The biggest problem that I see with coop gaming is in rich single player experiences. It probably becomes quite difficult to implement a co-op play, as you have to worry about who is talking to who, how to deal with triggers and scripts and cutscenes. Although I would think that a creative team of designers could figure this out (I'm just uncreative ).

 

Thanks for the feedback!

[Faelgon]

I think you may not be receiving many replies because cooperation is something that has already been implemented and stressed in the original NWN.

 

You are totally right, it has, undoubtedly, made the game much more fun for both me and thousands of others.

 

Because of this fact, I find it extremely hard to believe that Obsidian would remove this mechanic, as it would negate a rather large portion of the game. It would taking a huge step backwards.

 

Based on this, we can probably be around 98% certain that co-op will be a well-supported feature in NWN2.

[Phosphor]

Co-op definately enhances gameplay and I'm all for it being included whenever and wherever possible. Simply by virtue of playing with other people, a game can be dramatically improved or made a more enjoyable experience. Even with the poor MP set up of the Infinity Engine games, I thoroughly enjoyed playing those in co-op, particularly IWD2. I found that style of game-play revitalised the game and presented it in a new way - the same with BG2. I can't stand playing BG2 alone, but I love it in co-op.

 

So yeah. Yay co-op gameplay!

[alanschu]

I think you may not be receiving many replies because cooperation is something that has already been implemented and stressed in the original NWN.

 

You are totally right, it has, undoubtedly, made the game much more fun for both me and thousands of others.

 

Because of this fact, I find it extremely hard to believe that Obsidian would remove this mechanic, as it would negate a rather large portion of the game. It would taking a huge step backwards.

 

Based on this, we can probably be around 98% certain that co-op will be a well-supported feature in NWN2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I agree, but my comments are not directed specifically for NWN2. I know the game will have co-op.

 

But there are still a large number of games out there that I would just love to play co-op. Some of them have generic enough stories that I don't think they would hinder things too much.

 

I started this thread because not because I want co-op in NWN2, but I would like Obsidian to consider co-op for future projects as well. Adding co-op gameplay at the last minute is not easy, but if considerations are made at the beginning of development (which will be more likely if developers, and probably more importantly publishers, begin to see a market for them), it will be easier to implement and create a story around it.

[Loof]

That so few games have co-op is one of the things that never made any sence to me. Most "it doesn't sell arguments" I can understand as true or at least imagine are true, this just isn't the case with co-op.

 

Of all my friends that play computergames I haven't spoken to one single one that doesnt enjoy co-op and when discussing games one of the most common reacuring subjects is "why didn't they include co-op". So the reason why so few games do have it must be something else (or me and all my friends are the exception). But i can't for my life figure out what it is, so I would like to add my voice to the original poster about wanting counter arguments.

 

PS: This is by the way coming from a person that can't stand any mmo-games (mostly because I think 1 in 10 people are idiots that are bound to ruin the game for everyone else).

[alanschu]

Must be a technical limitation perhaps? I can see potential nightmares if a situation is heavily scripted. Although at the same time I would think it would be possible to implement most scripts with some considerations. I don't see, from a technical standpoint, why a game like Call of Duty (which is heavily scripted) would be technically limited from a co-op standpoint.

 

However, perhaps they would need to rework their AI algorithms since they seem to follow you around. Maybe with two entities they would get confused and broken?

 

Having said that....I would really love to play Call of Duty co-op :D

[mkreku]

By the way, one of the main reasons I'm interested in Dungeon Lords (besides the pretty graphics, third person perspective and D.W. Bradley) is that they've promised co-op for up to 4 people from the beginning. Not like STALKER, where they promise co-op early on and then cut it out 2 months from release. That sucks.

[alanschu]

 

STALKER would be a good one too. What is this Dungeon Lords game?

[Diogo Ribeiro]

It's an action dungeon crawler set to brainstun everyone because it deviates from twitch combat gameplay by using... twitch combat gameplay >_>

[mkreku]

 

STALKER would be a good one too.  What is this Dungeon Lords game?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

http://www.dungeonlordsgame.com/

 

Basically it's a RPG using 3D third person perspective and realtime combat in an open-ended world (bigger than Gothic 2, smaller than Morrowind). The graphics are nice and it seems to have some great character development and customization.

 

http://static.filefront.com/images/thqqhcuctu.jpg

 

(Hope the second link works. If it doesn't, it's just a link to a picture showing off a character screen..)