Don't Penalize the independent!

[sandman1347]

First let me say that the original KOTOR is my favorite XBox game and that I can't wait for the sequel. This series is the best thing Star Wars to come along since the 80's. That being said there is one aspect of the game that I would like to see changed.

 

In KOTOR, you are supposed to have the freedom to play the game any way you want and the ability to achieve tremendous power regardless of which path you take. The game does not quite deliver on this promise, however, because the only way to become truly powerful is to choose a side. As you progress through the game, if you go to the extreme of either light side or dark side, then you recieve a tremendous discount in terms of how many force points it takes for you to use the corresponding force powers. If, on the other hand, you choose not to take a stance with the established sides but rather to walk your own path, you recieve no such bonus. It's as if you are being punished for not falling in line with either the Jedi or the Sith.

 

Now I agree that it should be more simple early on in the game if you simply pick light side or dark side and run with it, but by the end of the game, I think a middle of the road character should gain some of the same force advantages that the extremists get as a reward for taking the harder path. Maybe if the extreme light or dark side gets an 8 point discount then the middle of the road guy could have a 4 point discount. It would have to be a little less because he/she would have the added advantage of being able to weild powers from both sides of the force. As it stands now, it does not pay to play KOTOR as a neutral character and that is a shame.

[Shizbot]

He should get discounts on the Universal Force Powers, since they have no middle guy powers....But even though he gets a discount on the Universal Powers the Light/Dark shouldnt get any negitive to them...

[sandman1347]

Thats an interesting idea. Instead of the dark or light side powers, the neutral character could gain a bonus in the use of universal powers such as speed and push to illustrate a more complete understanding of the force. Good one.

[Product of the Cosmos]

I think a nuetral character gains enough by not being penalized or gaining from dark or light. I dont think nuetral characters should get bonuses in universal force powers. IMO it was set up quite well. But its a tenative opinion not so in stone. The concept you speak IMO could be implemented subtly and well too.

[sandman1347]

Neutral characters gain nothing by not being penalized. If you are a light side character, you use strictly light side force powers so as to maximize your effectiveness. If you wanted to play the game using force lightning and choke, then you would play as a dark side character. In that way, whichever side you choose, you get a bonus in the force powers that come along with it. But, if you choose not to take a side, you get no bonus what so ever. I'd like to see that change. In fact you could not even truly be neutral in the original KOTOR. You had to choose between the Jedi and the Sith. There were only two possible outcomes to the game; a light side ending and a dark side ending. In The Sith Lords, I'd like to see an option for actually playing through the game without being counted among either order and without being penalized for your independence.

[Catalyst]

In the end KotOR's character alignment and responses connected with this didn't have the scope many people (includiny myself) hoped for. It would have been interesting to see a morally grey Force user who answered to no-one stop the progress of an inter-galactic war, and then disappear.

 

I like the idea of 'grey players' having bonuses on universal force abilities, as both light and dark gain bonuses for their particularly alignment, and there is a wider scope of useable powers, whilst not affecting the alignment of the character when used properly (not focusing on dark or light side powers).

[Product of the Cosmos]

I just don't see much use for a skill bonus for someone nuetral. The bonus that nuetral characters get is not being penalized for either dark or light so you can use them both adequetly just not like you would if you were polarized to one or the other.

 

In a nutshell-

If your dark +5 dark -5 light=0

If your light +5 light -5 dark=0

If your nuetral 0 dark 0 light=0.

Its even to me.

 

 

As for ending. If you want to be nuetral I guess you could just not finish the game and stay in a cantina playing Pazaak not diciding the fate of the universe.. lol. And the idea seems cool as a pipedream IMO.. But when I think of reality of it.. I don't think its plausable and I think its done quite well the way it is.

[sandman1347]

Here's the thing. That so called penalty that is applied to light side or dark side characters is never a factor. This is so because as a light side character, you wouldn't use dark side powers and viceversa. Why would you when you can be equally effective without them and they are actually draining your force points so fast that they hurt you more than they help. With that out of the way, we know that by the end of the game you get a -5 bonus in your force powers as either a light side or dark side jedi. I think that something should be done to give some kind of bonus to a neutral character so as to make him/her as effective as the extreme characters.

 

As for the ending: you would not just not finish the game and sit around playing cards all day. Have you ever considered the possibility that you might determine the fate of the universe without taking sides with either faction. Now that would be a truly open ended experience.

[Product of the Cosmos]

Im not sure how that would happen sandman. Please expand my awareness by adequetly showing me how a nuetral character in the story of kotor could not pick lightside or dark in such a big event like the star forge.. IMO in real life as well you can only be devolving or evolving in light and dark ways. So in real life my philo is there is no nuetral. But plz expand my SW's gameplay thought with a decent example of an ending and process of nuetrality.

 

Maybe my math is wrong in the estimation of good/bad of being extreme. But when I was nuetral I used light and dark freely and it seemed equal. I did not feel penalized.

[GhostofAnakin]

I think the thing is, in regards to the Force, technically there shouldn't be a "neutral". If you look at all the Force users in the movies and novels, they were either lightside or darkside. None of them (that I can think of) were what would be considered neutral.

 

But that might be the problem. Perhaps my definition of what "neutral" means is different than perhaps what Bioware intended it to be. In my definition, a neutral Force user is one who, for a lack of a better phrase, "just doesn't care either way". And since they don't really care, they're less likely to be as in tune to the Force as those who either strive to bring balance (LS) or strive to dominate (DS).

 

If you think of all the known Force users, they seem to easily fall in to either LS or DS. Luke (LS), Emperor (DS), Yoda (LS), Darth Vader (DS). And even when Darth Vader is redeemed and saves his son, I'd say that he went from one extreme to the other. I don't think at the moment he tossed the Emperor down the shaft, he was just neutral. I think he became fully LS again.

 

Because of this, I think it's perfectly understandable that "neutral" characters don't get any bonuses. From a gamer point of view, maybe that's a little limiting. But from the point of view of having KOTOR mimic the SW universe as well as it can, it makes perfect sense.

 

If you can name me one character who is neutral and is as powerful as either Yoda (LS) or the Emperor (DS), then I might re-adjust my thinking. But I don't think there is a single character who uses the Force that can be considered neutral that is anywhere as powerful as those who are either completely LS or completely DS.

[sandman1347]

Can you name one character who is not neutral who is as powerful as those two? Me neither. While what you say holds true for the movies, in the game you can be neutral. I just think that if they are going to make that an option, then they should flesh it out as much as the light or dark side choices. The first time I played through the game, I played it light side and was floored by the experience. Then I tried dark side which made the game seem new all over again and was also a great experience. Then I tried to see what would happen if I did not take a side and I was disapointed by the way that the game clearly wasn't designed with this kind of freedom in mind. At the end of the game, you must choose between the two established sides. There is no alternative. I think it would be interesting to see someone from the Green Party win.

[Korto Vos]

I think the thing is, in regards to the Force, technically there shouldn't be a "neutral".  If you look at all the Force users in the movies and novels, they were either lightside or darkside.  None of them (that I can think of) were what would be considered neutral. [...] Because of this, I think it's perfectly understandable that "neutral" characters don't get any bonuses.  From a gamer point of view, maybe that's a little limiting.  But from the point of view of having KOTOR mimic the SW universe as well as it can, it makes perfect sense.

Yeah, exactly. Those who try to walk on the wire-edge between the Light and the Dark Side tend to either fall to the Dark Side, or they refrain so much from using the Force that they don't really have much chance of becoming even halfway powerful ...

 

 

If you can name me one character who is neutral and is as powerful as either Yoda (LS) or the Emperor (DS), then I might re-adjust my thinking.  But I don't think there is a single character who uses the Force that can be considered neutral that is anywhere as powerful as those who are either completely LS or completely DS.

Wouldn't be surprised if someone does manage to scare up exactly such a character in one of the novels or comics. There have been some really bad ideas in the Expanded Universe section ...

 

 

Another point, of course, is that Star Wars is an epic story about Good and Evil - it just doesn't fit such a story to have a neutral ending! Moral grey zones can make for really interesting stories (and games), but there are other settings better suited for them ...

[sandman1347]

But plz expand my SW's gameplay thought with a decent example of an ending and process of nuetrality.

Well that sort of plays into my true gripe with this grat game and that is the fact that you're enemies do not change based on how you play. Think about it, you fight through the same levels and against the same people whether you choose to be the good guy or the bad guy. Thats not likely the way it would actually go.

 

In direct response to your requset, I would say that you could have a lot more freedom in how you finish the game. Maybe you could choose to take Malak down for your own reasons, or maybe you could choose to ally with him to get what you want. There are infinate possibilities really. I think the whole point of anything EU is that it allows other creative minds to approach the Star Wars universe and think out of the box instead of being shackled to George Lucas's personal vision.