Class Tier List - Advice Needed (Again)

[Aestus]

10 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Maybe also try out Stormcaller. It's the more exciting bow, also because of its cool visual and audio effects - but Persistence does better single target damage.

 

I'll check it out. TBH, I've never used it before as a main weapon, because I've always valued Persistence and Borresaine so highly. 

[Boeroer]

It has two damage types (shock/pierce) which is pretty good. The only other bow that does this is Sagani's Massuk Hunting Bow.

Edit: btw. Heart of the Storm (+20% dmg for shock attacks) works for both the arrow damage (no matter whether pierce or shock gets used) as well as the Returning Storm proc. 

Edited November 11 by Boeroer

[Chaospread]

Stormcaller is pretty fine versus Animat and other foes sensitive to shock damage.
Other great weapons for ranger are which ones that proc stun: Borresaine, One-Eyed Molina's Gold-Fingered Spike-Flinger (also very fast if patched), Rod of Pale Shades (also decrease defense), Aedrin's Wrecker; not to mention the only ranged weapon with prone effect: Puitènte med Príncipi (also tow damege types).

These makes ranger great also in CC. With blunderbusses you can proc stun realiable with Driving Flight, Twinned Arrows and Stunning Shots. Also Golden Gaze is good in that and has a nice proc.
Fast ranged weapons is also cool: The Rain of Godagh Field, Wendgär, Forgiveness, Pretty Pretty's Rib (also Rending).
Twin Sting is awesome to proc Predator's Sense and has also a great spellchance.
Marking weapons is another wonderful thing in a party: St. Garam's Spark, Pliambo per Casitàs (also disorienting!), Cgadob's Hazel.
With ranger's high accuracy also Annihilation is and awesome enchantment: Dulcanale (also Rending), Sabra Marie.

Fulvano's Blunderbuss can make you a charme spammer and Silver Flash is insane with blind effect.

Sure I'm forgetting other good synergies, but we are plenty of weapons for rangers, while Rogue has less chance to stun, prone etc. with weapons, if they take them they remove a weapon for other people (think about barbs...), they can rely on usual sabres and  Annihilation enchants and above all they must (not always, but often) go melee without a bodyguard (as AC is).
Early game rangers are also more effective with their accuracy form distance, rogue is too squishy and can't rely on many abilities, while ranger is good yet also with only autoattack.

I hope you can experiment and see

[Aestus]

@Boeroer Okay, I can see what you're saying now. The Ranger's DPS after getting Twinned Arrow is very high. Sagani is feeling like one of my strongest units, and I barely have to pay attention to her. I think Bread and Butter Tier is a good spot for the class. 

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, Aestus said:

@Boeroer Okay, I can see what you're saying now. The Ranger's DPS after getting Twinned Arrow is very high. Sagani is feeling like one of my strongest units, and I barely have to pay attention to her. I think Bread and Butter Tier is a good spot for the class. 

Yes, the "barely have to pay attention" is what lifts the Ranger (without Animal Companion) up over the Rogue imo who usually needs constant attention to be most effective.

This maybe isn't a plus if one's considering a Ranger as the main character (I think most players even like to micromanage their MC) but as a companion or adventurer that's a good thing, especially when you have 6 party members who all might demand at least a little bit attention.

That was the only reason why a tried to turn the otherwise high-micro-mgnt Monk into a low-maintenance build:  

It's cool to have a party member you don't need to care for and who's still very good.  

Edited Wednesday at 10:17 AM by Boeroer

[limaxophobiacq]

I will say I do not feel like fighter belongs with rogue in bottom tier IMO. Knockdown with Barrage and dual-wielded high-accuracy weapons is probably the most reliable single-target CC in the game and once you get Charge it's very fast to apply to any enemy. With extra Knockdown talent it's excellent for taking any single strong enemy completely out of a fight. Even through high fortitude and +20 vs. prone you can knockdown dragons and Concelhaut without much trouble in my experience, rolling twice and adding weapon accuracy makes it very unlikely to miss especially if you use something like the deadfire-pack soulbound club in one of your hands on a high-int fighter.

Their accuracy is also obviously nice with item abilities. They don't have the solo potential of paladin of course, they are time-limited in tanking with Vigorous Defense and don't have any AoE damage, but in a party I think they belong with the other bread-and-butter classes.

Edited Thursday at 08:54 PM by limaxophobiacq

[Chaospread]

I think the problem with fighter is limited resources, also "per combat" resources. Also Rogue is good in CC with items, if you use a fighter as tank his CC and DPS abilities decrease, while Rogue can achieve DPS and CC also better (because he can crit more and some items proc on crits) and can avoid death via his abilities.
Fighter and Rogue have high ACC, the first one is a great tank, the second a great DPS and single target killer (with his better chance to crits), but there's no so many difference between them, except Rogue is more squishy but is more funny (or frustrating ), with backstab, invisibility and so on.

The problem for both class is other classes can do same things better, easier, and/or more times (longer, without rests, etc...). I'd prefer rogue because fighter is boring, but probably in terms of power fighter is better, I wouldn't put any classes in niche tier for PoE1 because every class can solo the game in PotD more or less with not so many troubles, but in terms of usefulness in a party and fun in SOLO fighters are among the worst (if not truly the worst).
They have a great advantage: the best class to script and have no micromanage if you wish - but I think it is a well-fitting description exactly for "niche" tier

[Boeroer]

Knockdown is cool and very helpful from the early to mid game. But it requires to make the fighter a dw non-tank. And to be honest: at that point I might as well go with a non-tank monk instead which gives me a lot more utility and power in the long run.

Fighters are great tanks, but that's a rel. narrow niche. It's not bad! Just a niche. 

Where Fighters are really cool as you said: with spells from items. Barrage in combination with the high base acc is perfect for that on a non-tank build. But that's an even more narrow niche and the same role as a melee wizard would take. Not a bad one at all, but still a niche imo.

I, too, have to remember myself from time to time that niche-tier doesn't mean bad tier.

That's why I argued for the Ranger to come out of the niche tier: because in combination with the animal companion it can do more than just single target damage. 

By the way: playing a party in PoE atm against a bounty and the rangers' Binding Roots is annoying me sooo bad - I consider taking it for Sagani.

Funnily enough since Deadfire I value the per-rest abilities of PoE higher than before. Binding Roots is "only" 5/rest - but that also means it can be 5/encounter in a very tough fight. And a very long lasting (30sec base) stuck with the Ranger's high accuracy can totally turn the tides of a fight. 

Also the 15 pierce +15 slash dmg of Thorny Roots only have to overcome 1/4 of DR (as all fixed dmg it seems). You can totally kill some casters just with that at the start of the fight (it's a fast cast so getting out 5 in quick succession is easy). 

I'm honestly considering to build a "per-rest", high INT/high PER Ranger just for maximizing Binding/Thorny Roots in combo with spell items (Rotfinger Gloves and such). That's how much I was annoyed by Binding Roots.