Multiclasses with notable synergy?

[childofthesun]

Hi! Long time lurker here, trying to think of an interesting multiclass to finally finish deadfire with (500 hours and never made it much further than ashen maw for some reason, completed PoE 1 several times).

I've tested a ton of combinations, but am becoming increasingly convinced that in a party, a caster multiclass character is usually overall less efficient than two characters single classed, or by relying on synergy between party members, with the exception maybe of monk to boost the caster side.

The latest idea I had was a troubadour/druid DoT focused character, using the long night's drink + dragon thrashed (with community patch), making fortitude targetting spells easier to land while adding another dot on top. Of course, I ran into the problem where this would be much better accomplished by a single class ancient supported by some chanter multiclass, probably howler.

I was thinking about this more, and even using fighter or barbarian to support the caster side doesn't make a whole lot of sense (unless playing solo). The bonus to accuracy and intelligence from fighter can be covered by a priest and chanter (which would also buff the entire party), and while armored grace is nice, it doesn't seem worth it to sacrifice PL 8/9 for extra sturdiness from heavy armor (again relying on party play to remove the need to wear heavy armor).

Barbarian boosts also don't seem good enough to lose PL 8/9. Blooded working with spells is nice, but between losing power levels and potentially keeping might at base if using berserker, at best it breaks even in damage while losing the best spells and having slower spell progression. Action speed seems like the best benefit, and blood thirst on spells is a lot of fun, but is it actually more effective than a SC caster? You'd finish easier encounters faster, while losing top end potential and struggling more with tougher foes.

Even ranger accuracy boosts I think would be less effective than having another party member specialized in debuffing defences. Howler with a pike or morning star, or fighter with AOE flail/club/morning star modal clear out.

Paladin lash on spells is really cool, but again I'm not sure if the synergy is actually more effective than SC.

Essentially I'm looking for multiclass ideas with legitimate synergy that warrants sacrificing the benefits of SC. The only caster where it's almost universally better to multiclass is chanter I think (cipher can go either way).

When considering planning a full party, the only caster focused synergizes (outside of chanter) that I think are potent enough to justify are:

- assassin+blood mage for permanent invisibility and chain CC (Boeroer's idea I believe)

- blood mage + soul blade, focusing on the spirit lance soul annihilation

- hellwaker + lifegiver when focusing on heals. If focusing on DoTs, while the extra might and int is cool but ultimately overshadowed by maelstrom in the end.

- monk+wizard if specifically intending to focus on the lance.

- fighter/paladin+ wizard if trying to make a tank, but this is using buffs to boost the martial side instead of using the multiclass to boost the caster.

Most of the time if focusing on spells, it seems best to stay single class as a wizard, priest or druid. A melee focused character is another story of course. Any interesting synergizes I'm missing? Thanks everyone.

 

 

 

[Boeroer]

In a party I usually value single class wizards, priests and druids more than their multiclasses. Ciphers and chanters I prefer to multiclass. The main reason is that Cipher's and Chanter's PL 8 and 9 spells aren't very exciting to me.

Speaking of Cipher and Chanter: Psion/Troubadour has nice synergy for a caster multiclass imo. Not that one side boosts the spells of the other - but in terms of resouce generation and action economy it's a great fit. Also you can combine two of the most impactful things in one character: summons and mind control. Also works with Beguiler if you concentrate on the cheaper AoE deception spells (mostly Phantom Foes and Secret Horrors).

Since you spend resources (and not spell slots) with those two classes you don't have the same situation as with wizards/priests/druids: you'd need to wait for new resources to fill up anyway. Instead of waiting or doing something suboptimal like attacking with a weapon, you just cast with the resource of the second class.

Some caster multiclasses (which focus on casting) where I see synergies that can be worth multiclassing:

• Psion/Troubadour (or Beckoner or Bellower)
• Tactician/Wizard, -/Priest or -/Druid because of Brilliant
• I still like Steel Garrote/Bloodmage with Whispers of the Endless Paths because Blood Sacrifice gets automatically fueled by Offensive Parry. The weapon is basically a tool for more casting, not for melee attacks. You trade PL 8 and 9 for more tankyness and an action-economy-friendly spell refill.
• Helwalker with any caster because of the increased MIG (+15), INT(+10) and PEN (+2) as well as accuracy (+12). The summons are also good to have. But imo best with Cipher or Chanter because losing PL 8 and 9 doesn't hurt as much.
• Assassin/Wizard with Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure as you said
• Berserker/Priest just because of confused Withdraw (it's an autohit on enemies, too) which is really useful and is accessible so early.
• Cat Livegiver/Bloodmage because Wall of Draining prolongs Spiritshift + Cat Flurry (and the +5PL powerful healings) - the combo makes casting superfast and lets you use Blood Sacrifice without risk
• Troubadour/Druid where you use Brisk Recitation with the "Thick Grew their Tongues" chant anf Their Champion invocation as well as all pulsing spells (especially the ones with multiple rolls such as Venombloom) in combination with the Great Sword Effort and its enchantment Hemorrhaging as well as Hylea's Talos in order to generate countless crits with your spells and chant which will all interrupt. A walking interrupt machine.   

 

Edited October 20 by Boeroer

[childofthesun]

Thanks for the info! I had watched a bit of Abot's ultimate run with the psion/troubadour, it's a really cool combination. The only problem is that I've played cipher a bit too much across both games and am trying to branch out

Hellwalker is initially very appealing, if I understand the stacking rules correctly though it can only give you +10 might and +5 intelligence if you are also using inspirations provided by party members (not sure about dance with death accuracy). Still great of course, and very appealing for cipher and chanter as you said, just a more difficult tradeoff for the other casters.

I didn't know about the berserker/priest withdraw interaction, that's super cool!

The cat lifegiver/blood mage actually sounds exactly what I was looking for! I think the main thing I was hung up on was trying to find some interaction of mechanics that's more interesting than single class but still strong enough to not regret losing PL 8/9 spells. I try to avoid running single class wiz/druid/priest because I found their nukes trivialize most encounters after level 19, but I don't like gimping myself intentionally. Definitely a weirdly specific problem. 

Also, I just wanted to thank you (and the other forum regulars) for all the posts over the years. Despite never personally posting it's been great reading discussions about builds and mechanics, and Pillars probably has the nicest community I've seen in a video game. Anyways, much appreciated

[childofthesun]

I was doing some testing of a few ideas with this sorcerer, and noticed something interesting regarding action speed debuff stacking.

It turns out druid's blizzard and wizard's arduous delay of motion action speed debuffs actually stack together, which is contrary to how I thought deadfire mechanics normally work (the larger buff/debuff takes precedence and suppresses a lesser version of the same effect).

I tested this on enemies, and when it appeared to work I used a confused berserker/priest of wael to cast confusion on me so I could cast both on myself.

Both effects do actually combine to a 52% action speed penalty, which oddly enough is only attributed to the arduous delay effect - blizzard is not listed until arduous delay expires.

Here are some pictures to show what I mean. In the first picture my character is affected with both spells, and the second picture is just the effects of blizzard.

This also stacks with the recovery speed penalty of blinded, which means you can slow down enemies to a crawl.

Miasma (just to debuff defences and resolve) + arduous delay + blizzard + chillfog + freezing pillar for hobbled, and everything is in slow motion. Maybe not as effective as just using hard cc, but pretty fun with a cool ice theme. Everything for this combo can also come by PL 3, substituting freezing pillar for tanglefoot.

I couldn't find mention of this interaction anywhere, so I thought I'd post it here - sorry if this was already common knowledge.

[Boeroer]

On 10/21/2024 at 12:32 AM, childofthesun said:

Hellwalker is initially very appealing, if I understand the stacking rules correctly though it can only give you +10 might and +5 intelligence if you are also using inspirations provided by party members

It's correct for INT - if you use an INT inspiration then Duality of Mortal Presence (INT) - which is an active buff - will only give you +5 INT on top of the inspiration. +5 INT is still great - and you can spare the INT inspiration.

For MIG it's different though. Since the Helwalker's MIG bonus is a passive effect it stacks with everything. With a MIG inspiration (such as Tenacious from Thunderous Blows) you'll get +15 MIG. Which is awesome for both healing and dealing damage (and fortitude defense, too: +30). The +2 PEN for spells is also very nice to have. Unfortunately a Helwalker/Druid as example will lose access to Avenging Storm and Maelstrom (argh) - but +2 PEN, +45% dmg, +12 ACC and a massively increased AoE size and very long durations combined with faster casting speed (+5 DEX from Swift Strikes) for (elemental) spells is pretty cool, too.   

 

On 10/21/2024 at 12:32 AM, childofthesun said:

The cat lifegiver/blood mage actually sounds exactly what I was looking for!

It's pretty impressive, here's a build with video that showcases such a multiclass:

 

On 10/21/2024 at 12:32 AM, childofthesun said:

Also, I just wanted to thank you (and the other forum regulars) for all the posts over the years. Despite never personally posting it's been great reading discussions about builds and mechanics, and Pillars probably has the nicest community I've seen in a video game. Anyways, much appreciated

I appreciate you appreciating us.  

 

17 hours ago, childofthesun said:

I was doing some testing of a few ideas with this sorcerer, and noticed something interesting regarding action speed debuff stacking.

It turns out druid's blizzard and wizard's arduous delay of motion action speed debuffs actually stack together, which is contrary to how I thought deadfire mechanics normally work (the larger buff/debuff takes precedence and suppresses a lesser version of the same effect).

[...]

Miasma (just to debuff defences and resolve) + arduous delay + blizzard + chillfog + freezing pillar for hobbled, and everything is in slow motion. Maybe not as effective as just using hard cc, but pretty fun with a cool ice theme. Everything for this combo can also come by PL 3, substituting freezing pillar for tanglefoot.

I couldn't find mention of this interaction anywhere, so I thought I'd post it here - sorry if this was already common knowledge.

Yeah, a lot of action speed buffs but also debuffs seem to stack despite being actives - but you never know so testing and talking about it is great.  I don't think this particular combo was common knowlede. Even if it was: it never hurts to read about it again.
I once tried to build a char who combined all the action speed/recovery debuffs into one (there are also some items that apply those effects) but didn't finish it (don't remember why). Maybe it's time to pick it up again.  There are no immunities to those slowdown effects (except blind ofc) which can be very nice. Also interrupts add recovery so maybe those should be added, too. 

Edited October 22 by Boeroer

[childofthesun]

@BoeroerThat build is seriously impressive... fastest casting I've ever seen for sure. Probably a better approach with this multiclass than trying to maximize speed debuffs honestly 

Maybe using Sisyfo's Stone, Rod of the Deep Hunter and Magnera's Chain together could be fun, but then again this would require getting hit/crit to proc Sisyfo's Stone and the armor. Seems a bit counterproductive though, slowing enemies down means you'd get hit less, so it would be tough to maximize the stacks - maybe the armor and amulet are just best suited on a barb or something as a nice additional effect rather than the focus of a build. If the rod stacked more, SC cipher could be nice with shared nightmare.

You're right with interrupts, honestly I think Thelee's disruptor build would be better at shutting enemies down than stacking slowdown effects. At the very least though, combining blizzard + arduous delay + blind and slicken for some interrupts seems like a great early game tactic before you get access to the best hard cc and perma-interrupt strategies. Definitely going to try this out on my current run and see how effective it is.

[Boeroer]

19 hours ago, childofthesun said:

Maybe using Sisyfo's Stone, Rod of the Deep Hunter and Magnera's Chain together could be fun, but then again this would require getting hit/crit to proc Sisyfo's Stone and the armor. Seems a bit counterproductive though, slowing enemies down means you'd get hit less, so it would be tough to maximize the stacks - maybe the armor and amulet are just best suited on a barb or something as a nice additional effect rather than the focus of a build. If the rod stacked more, SC cipher could be nice with shared nightmare.

You could use Essential Phantom (Wizard) or Dichotomous Soul summons (Monk). When they get hit they will apply the debuffs of Sisyfo's Stone and Magnera's Chain (because they get copies of your items, the monk ones wihtout the weapon though). The Phantom can even apply the debuff from the rod (not in an AoE unfortunately since it cannot use modals).
If I am not mistaken using Phantom/Dichotomous Soul even lets you stack the debuffs higher than normal - because every summon has its own copy of the item which builds an individual debuffing stack on the enemy. So you can circumvent the "max stack" of the item (if there's any). The enemy will have two seperate stacks from the rod for example if you and the phantom both attack the same enemy, doubling the max amount of the debuff. 

 

[Chaospread]

Then, Dichotomous Soul seems better because you have three different sources of stackable debuffs, instead of only two with the Phanton, right?

[Boeroer]

I think not - because DS cannot use the rod. Phantom would have rod, stone and chain while DS could have 2*stone and 2*chain - but they would need to get hit or even crit to apply the effect. rod is easier: just shoot. 

By the way: I forgot that Greater Wildstrike Freeze does -20% Action Speed to enemies, too.  If this stacks with Blizzard etc. a Wizard/Druid who casts Chillfog+Blizzard+Arduous Delay and also uses Phantom with rod, stone and chain could slow down single enemies (bosses) a lot and multiple enemies considerably. I will try this a bit  

Edit: oops, that was Wildstrike Frenzy, not Greater Wildstrike - nevermind.

Edit2: tried a bit, I think the items are not worth it compared to the spells. The combo of Chillfog, Blizzard and Arduous Delay alone is already having a significant impact on mobs' action speed and recovery. You can of course use the rod + modal afterwards to add more sluggishness if you don't want to use Wildstrike (Cat Flurry) or when it's over, but using a Phantom and getting hit feels too gimmicky imo. Very good thing about this spell combo is that all those spells are rel. low tier. 

Edit3: Finality's Claim with Time Dilation III (-7% Action speed to all around when engaged) could be worth a Phantom in combo with the stone and the chain maybe. While oneself is using Spiritshift (you'd have to summon the Phantom before shifting though - esle it has a hide, not a chain ;)). 

Edited October 23 by Boeroer

[childofthesun]

I tested Wildstrike Frenzy, and it stacks with the other spell effects. Everything together caused even the enemy attack animations to be hilariously slow, but of course this isn't a self contained synergy anymore since you'd need another character for the wizard side. With Elric Galad's BPM mod though this character is really nice, since the Wildstrike proc was changed to be on crit rather than on kill, while also providing a +2 frost PL bonus.

I'm also fairly certain there's a display bug with blizzard. The spell description says it's a 20% action speed debuff, which is also what is listed under a character's active effects, but the actual debuff is 25% when looking at the attack/cast speed and recovery time on weapons and spells.

A trio of this druid, a monk using Dichotomous Soul using the amulet, ring and armor, plus a wizard with the rod and Phantom would probably be equivalent to freezing time for the enemies. I'm not sure how to calculate the total value, but in theory I think the total you could get is:

Action Speed: -33% (Arduous delay), -25% (Blizzard), -20% (Wildstrike Frenzy), -30% (Two max stacks of Rod of the Deep Hunter, with wizard Phantom), -30% (3 Sisyfo's Stone, monk summon), -21% (3 Finality's Claim, monk summon), -15% (any dexterity affliction)

Recovery Time: +50% (blinded), +45% (3 Magnera's Chain, monk summon)

Maybe even using Frostfall with Dispersed Suffering on the monk to increase slow durations and for the ice theme. With BPM, Unbroken also applies a 15% action speed penalty to engaged enemies instead of the AR boost.

If solo sorcerer though, I agree the items would probably be more trouble than they're worth other than the rod and ring.

Edit: Monks actually get two summons, oops. It would be near impossible to maximize the stacks from the armor and amulet in practice probably.

Edited October 23 by childofthesun

[Boeroer]

9 hours ago, childofthesun said:

It would be near impossible to maximize the stacks from the armor and amulet in practice probably.

Yes, it's an interesting experiment, but I don't think that it's feasible in the actual game. Unless you fight singular tough enemies - then the stone, rod and chain could actually be useful, especially on Essential Phantoms/Dichotomous Soul or even Living Illusions (from cloak). 

The spell effects (and also the rod with Blast) are easy to apply. The Ring, too - but it comes pretty late if you don't tackle BoW early.

A Sorcerer can do Chillfog/Curse of Blackened Sight + Tanglefoot/Binding Web + Blizzard + Arduous Delay pretty early all on their own. And with Cat Flurry also cast those very quickly. That's already a very cool combination for a multiclass that already has much other things to offer.

I mean just paralyzing/stunning enemies is obviously more impactful - but those effects usually don't last that long and sometimes there's immunity/resistance.

[Constentin Lévine]

With a cipher and Time Parasite, you can stack another -25% action time malus, and the cherry on the cake should be to sing Thick Grew their Tongues (+ Eld Nary eventually), since every interrupt will add a malus to the action speed. 

Of course, switching the Thundercrack pistol in loop is turning the cake for the cherry to a cheesecake, but the regular use of the slowing enchantment (i mean without fast switching) is also a good malus for the armored enemies.