Sell me on a gishy forbidden fist multiclass (other than transcendent)

[grasida]

I’m contemplating another play through and I’d like to try forbidden fist because I love monks and it looks like a really fun subclass. I almost always go for gish type multiclasses with some casting, though I’m sort of considering other builds. I’ve done a ton of soul blades, so I’d like something other than cipher. In terms of weapons, I’m thinking of trying mohora tanga, which I never played with before, though a sword and buckler (or sword and blunderbuss) swashbuckler type build is always tempting. Searching the forums, it feels like forbidden fist goes well with practically anything, which is worsening my decision paralysis. Please help me decide! How would you rate the following combinations in terms of 1)damage, 2)tankiness, 3)versatility, 4)overall fun? Are there any other builds I should consider?

-Forbidden fist/skald

-Forbidden fist/priest

-Forbidden fist/druid

-Forbidden fist/blood mage

-Forbidden fist/street fighter

-Forbidden fist/kind wayfarer

I would be playing on upscaled potd with the story companions and the community patch installed. I generally can’t stand picking the evil choices in rpgs, so even though the evil priests and paladins look really strong and fun, I don’t want to play them. Of course, this is very subjective and how I build the character specifically matters a lot, I just want to petition the build sages for fun ideas.

[Boeroer]

I would try to decrease the duration of the curse from the Forbidden Fist ability and to find a way to produce wounds besides using the Forbidden Fist ability (so basically get short-lived hostile effects or prevent being attacked a lot so you can use Enduring Dance of Death).

Generally one also you has to watch out for "does xy on melee weapon crit or hit" or so, because in the unmodded game the Forbidden Fist ability works like a melee spell and is not registered as a weapon attack. That means that for example a Skald will not generate phrases if he crits with the Forbidden Fist attack. But since you use the Community Patch mod this is not a problem because the Forbidden Fist attack is registered as melee weapon attack there (as it should be).

Thirdly you have to forego resistances against afflictions - if you want to get wounds from said afflictions. For unknown reasons the Forbidden Fist's wound mechanic will not generate a wound if you downgrade an affliction with a resistance and that affliction then ends. For example: you get hit by an attack that would weaken you for 10 secs - but you have a resistance against CON afflictions and so you only get sickened for 10 secs. Not the sicken effect expires and you get... nothing.

So it's better to not gain any resistance but instead make sure that all hostile effects only last very shortly. Which means maxed Resolve, special items and abilities. Also countering an affliction with an inspiration works: the affliction and the inspiration cancel each other out and you get 1 wound and some health. 

Based on those requirements:

1 hour ago, grasida said:

-Forbidden fist/skald

Pros:

• Swift Flurry + Heartbeat Drumming can make it more likely to generate a phrase point (you cannot gai more than 1 per action, but the chance to get one increases with more crit rolls per action)
• Turning Wheel is great for invocation and chant AoEs (bc. +10 INT) - something like Her Revenge is a lot better with a big AoE, same as Killers Froze Stiff etc.
• Turning Wheel prolongs the duration of debuffs/CC you can do with invocations. For example the paralysis of Killers Froze Stiff lasts a lot longer.
• the burning lash of Turning Wheel stacks with the Aefyllath Ues Mith Fyr lash, giving great multipilcative dmg bonuses to your weapon attacks (also Lightning Strikes if this us used instead of Swift Flurry)
• Ancient Memory and Mery and Kindness help with the FF-curse's self damage, Mercy and Kindness boosts the healing when a hostile effect expires
• Inspiration invocations work for the caster, too and can counter afflictions - and thus create wounds
• endless resources (wounds and phrases)

Cons:

• Forbidden Fist attack cannot produce phrases
• Resistance chants (which are usually very good against certain enemies) will hurt your wound generation
• no real martial synergies

1 hour ago, grasida said:

-Forbidden fist/priest

Pros:

• lots of inspirations to counter afflictions and thus gain wounds
• healing to counter curse damage
• Triumph of he Crusaders is nice in combination with Forbidden Fist attack/curse. FF attacks can kill quickly and you can heal a lot from fast kills.
• Turning Wheel's INT bonus is great for AoE size and (buff) durations
• Salvation of Time
• Barring Death's Door (+Salvation of Time) + Turning Wheel + FF's curse can let you reach absurd dmg bonuses with the FF attack while the absurd self damage has no consequence
• Spiritual Weapons' lash stacks with Turning Wheel (and Lightning Strikes) for nice multiplcative damage bonuses for your weapon's attack. 

Cons:

• Action economy: Priests usually buff/support (the party) a lot. This takes away from fighting etc.
• no martial synergies besides Spiritual weapon
• limited amounts of spells

1 hour ago, grasida said:

-Forbidden fist/druid

Pros:

• Turning Wheel + spells like above
• healing o counter curse damage 
• Druids have many DoT spells which profit a lot from higher INT
• Druids don't have accuracy buffs so the Dance of Death can help with hitting with ranged Druid spells
• some spells work with Instruments of Pain (for whatever reason) and gain *6 range. One of them is Sunlance which gains a range of 120m... 
• Taste of the Hunt is a nice alternative to Forbidden Fist attack
• Druids can generate a lot of wounds and high defense with friendly-fire combos such as Tanglefoot + high RES + Clarity of Agony + Crucible of Suffering. You will get hobbled by your own Tangelfoot - but the duration of pulses will be very short and you will get a wound as soon as a pulse spires
• Wildstrike lash stacks with Turning Wheel and Lightning Strikes
• Spiritshift Armor stacks with Iron Wheel'a AR bonus - while having 0 recovery penalty

Cons:

• Action economy like with Priests when buffing or healing a lot
• no martial synergies besides maybe Taste of the Hunt, Wildstrike lashes and natural armor 
• limited amounts of spells

1 hour ago, grasida said:

-Forbidden fist/blood mage

 Pros:

• lots of self buffs which are superfast
• like with the other casters: +10 INT is excellent for all sorts of spells (AoE and duration) 
• Deleterious Alacrity's self damage counts as hostile effect. When it expires you get a wound.
• Citzal's Spirit Lance works with Turning Wheel (AoE size, lash) and Stunning Surge which makes this an excellent combo
• Wall of Draining helps to prolong positive effects. See Crucibe of Suffering and all other (self) buffs as well as Healing over time
• You can - like the druid - generate wounds from friendly fire effects such as Chillfog (blind) or Binding Web (stuck) but those effects a more inconvenient than the Druid's hobble - and remember: no resistances
• with the Concelhaut's Draining Touch trick and a club+modal in the offhand + Miasma of Dull-Mindedness you can lower enemies Will defense a ton - which makes them easy to crit with terrify effects and expecially with the Draining Touch weapon (it targets Will). This makes triggering crits chains with Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming a lot more likely and deals a ton of damage. But the trick is a bit cheesy and not intended behavior. 
• potentially ulimited resources/spells

Cons:

• no real martial synergies besides the access to Spirit Lance and Draining Touch, but both are very potent, so... 
• squishier bec. of the Bloodmage's drawback against bloodied enemies and bc. of the added self damage of Blood Sacrifice

 

--- sorry, no time to address the rest, have to go. Maybe later, bye! 

Edited August 2 by Boeroer

[grasida]

Thanks! I think I’m leaning towards either priest or chanter, but I’m still tempted by street fighter(I’ve never played one) or kind wayfarer (I loved them in PoE and have never played one in Deadfire. But with street fighter, would it actually be possible to keep distracted up from powder burns? It seems like the duration would eventually get too short to be sustainable, though I guess it could still be a source of wounds. Other than street fighter, is there another class where it makes sense to use a blunderbuss together with a melee weapon? I’ve never really figured out another use case for that combo.

[Boeroer]

Kind Wayfarer + Forbidden Fist sounds like a good synergy because of the healing from White Flames and Lay on Hands and Exalted Endurance that can support your health while under the curse. And Eternal Devotion's lash will stack with Turning Wheel's, too. Slap on the Ring of Focused Flame and your White Flames will have great accuracy, too. Pick Scion of Flame and the PEN will be great, too. 

Only thing that feels not so nice to me is that White Flames (the KW's Flames of Devotion) is best with dual wielding because the healing procs twice then. This is a huge advantage imo. Forbidden Fist attck is not a full attack so shield setups make a lot of sense. BUT: once you pick up Tuotilo's Palm you'll have the best of both: weapon & shield AND dual wielding AND great enchantments for the Monk's side of the build. 

On top of that - since Forbidden Fist profits so much from maxed RES - they also fit very nicely thematically. Paladins with high RES make a lot of sense, too. 

All in all you can become very, very tanky while also having great offensive capabilities. And let's not forget that White Flames also heals your allies in range (and that range is increased by +10 INT from the Monk's side of course). Just don't pick the resistance passives of the Paladin!  

Sacred Immolation's self damage is a separate effect from the offensive part - its duration gets shortened by high RES and stuff like Clarity of Agony. So using Sacred Immolation (which is a great damage boost) isn't as risky as it usually is with "normal" paladins. Paladin/Monk is like it's made for Sacred Immolation (or the other way round). The self damage will wear off pretty quickly and even grant you a wound when it's ending. The burning part will still carry on. Like with the curse though the hostile part will get prolonged with higher INT.  

I think all in all it's a great combo - it's not very "gishy" though?

---

Street Fighter (I'll get to your question below) has an enormous potential for weapon damage. And with the Forbidden Fist it's quite easy to lower your health to 50% willingly in order to trigger the Streetfighter's passive without getting flanked. Combine with Human to also profit from Fighting Spirit at 50% health. But since operating at 50% health is risky one might - in this case - use Iron Wheel and a lot of CON + Tough and maybe even an Amulet of Greater Health in order to make the 50% of health still be a lot of health.  Streetfighters don't profit a ton from high INT as they usually don't use a lot of AoE or duration-based stuff (except maybe Toxic Strike) - and while the loss of a multiplicative burning lash in combination with such high damage bonuses does hurt your dps, I think the convenience of a much bigger health pool and thus the more reliable approach to "keep me under 50% health for massive dps gains" is just better. Getting knocked out all the time is no fun after all.

I made the same experience with a Helwalker/Berserker: very potent but dropping dead all the time. As soon as I rampoed up the health pool to the max it became much more enjoyable and performed actually way better even though on paper it had less dps potential. But it's only potential. What is that worth if you cannot make it happen?

Using a pet that does high "heal on kill" makes a lot of sense here. If you have Eder you can make sure he picks one that does a weaker version of that effect for the party, too. You will kill quickly so you will heal a lot, too, giving you access to even more "risk free" FF attacks.

By the way: Trickster/FF is an even better combo overall imo because you can lean into the defensive side more, become very tanky and still have great damage output. Also seems to be more on the gish side with the spells the Trickster gets. 

---

What about FF/Berserker? You can shorten the duration of the confusing part of Frenzy a lot so that you only become confused for a very short time - and the nyou'll get a wound + healing when it stops. The duration of Frenzy will not suffer. The self damage part of Berserker Frenzy cannot be shortend (it's directly tied to the frenzy duration) but iirc it will also give you wound + healing once Frenzy ends. With such a character you'd also need a lot of Health and a pet with heal on kill is very benefical here, too.

---

With all those I would recommend using Tuotilo's Palm and a weapon that does other damage than only crush (so no clubs and maces). For Skald Sasha's Singing Scimitar seems like the obvious choice. With Swift Flurry: Stalker's Patience (with Mercy Strike!) as well as Mohora Tanga (super high chance for crit chains because Red Flag Flying can proc itself!) are excellent choices. Watch out: Mohora Tanga can crash the game if your accuracy is much higher than your enemies' defenses (beause an endless loop of crits can occur that will shut the game down immediately without warning). If you don't overdo it with the accuracy/debuffing enememies defenses you should be fine though.

---

But with street fighter, would it actually be possible to keep distracted up from powder burns? It seems like the duration would eventually get too short to be sustainable, though I guess it could still be a source of wounds. Other than street fighter, is there another class where it makes sense to use a blunderbuss together with a melee weapon? I’ve never really figured out another use case for that combo.

Best use would be both of serafen's mortars. hybrid use (1 melee + one ranged weapon) if often just worse than 1 dedicated melee set + 1 pure ranged weapon set. You can def. keep up the distraction if you don't use Clarity of Agony too often - because you will be shooting/reloading superfast with Swift Strikes + Streetfighter's passive.  And Mortar's AoE + INT + Stunning Surge is an excellent, excellent combo. High INT also makes sure the distraction lasts long enough even if your RES is very high. On the otehr hand using a ranged setup is a bit detrimental to the FF attack. I suppose one can use it as a great way to dispose of enemies who come near you though. You don't even need to switch weapon sets in order to deal melee damage then.

Blunderbuss + melee weapon can make sense with FIghters (Clear Out can use the Blunderbuss if it's in the main had when a melee weapon is in the offhand), Rangers (Whirling Strike) works the same, Barbarians (Heart of Fury works with ranged and melee weapons, both will execute no matter what). If you count Blunderbus + bashing shield a ranged + melee setup it can make good sense for a lot of characters because you get the defensive bonus AND the dual wielding bonus that also speeds up the reloading. But usually I think pure ranged or pure melee beats hybrid in most cases.  
   

  

 

 

Edited August 3 by Boeroer

[yorname]

Outside of the cases @Boeroer mentioned, melee + ranged is only useful if you really want to only attack with a specific weapon and also get the dual wielding speed. And if you are not using full attack abilities as the core of your build. It's not like you'll be regularly alternating between swinging the sabre and shooting.

For example when fighting vessels, using Grave Calling + ranged weapon is something I often do. Since there's hardly a better weapon in this scenario, why not attack with it all the time. Scordeo's Edge is an all-purpose weapon that's also probably worth doing this, Adaptive stacks significantly faster and Blade Cascade triggers more often this way.

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, yorname said:

Outside of the cases @Boeroer mentioned, melee + ranged is only useful if you really want to only attack with a specific weapon and also get the dual wielding speed.

Right!

[grasida]

Okay, I think I’ve settled on contemplative. Kind wayfarer looks good, but feels a little one-note, I’ve done a ton of tricksters, and, for whatever reason, I’ve never been able to enjoy barbarian too much in Deadfire. Still a little tempted by Skald, though.

At any rate, what flavor of priest would work best?

Wael gives tankiness that pairs well with high resolve and some debuffs to extend with forbidden fist.

Berath gives touch of rot for early damage, the summoned greatsword to provide nice complementary damage types to the fists, rot skulls look like a fun possibility and the flavor works for barring death’s door and forbidden fist spam with a death godlike.

Eothas is my favorite role play choice, but the powers are so boring (I remember when this was focused on elemental damage in the beta and I created a custom subclass mod that replaced the generic priest spells with some special burn DoTs and other powers, but I lost my files for it, and don’t feel like trying to recreate the whole mod on my steam deck).

Magran, Skaen and Woedica don’t interest me that much. I love skaen and woedica’s powers, but feel too bad when I pick the cruel choices, so I feel like it comes down to Wael or Berath.

[Chaospread]

21 hours ago, yorname said:

Scordeo's Edge is an all-purpose weapon that's also probably worth doing this, Adaptive stacks significantly faster and Blade Cascade triggers more often this way.

But if you are a Priest with SoT and you can prolong BC, then is better use Scrodeo's Edge with one hand
The rest you say is totally right.

[Chaospread]

6 hours ago, grasida said:

Okay, I think I’ve settled on contemplative. Kind wayfarer looks good, but feels a little one-note, I’ve done a ton of tricksters, and, for whatever reason, I’ve never been able to enjoy barbarian too much in Deadfire. Still a little tempted by Skald, though.

At any rate, what flavor of priest would work best?

Wael gives tankiness that pairs well with high resolve and some debuffs to extend with forbidden fist.

Berath gives touch of rot for early damage, the summoned greatsword to provide nice complementary damage types to the fists, rot skulls look like a fun possibility and the flavor works for barring death’s door and forbidden fist spam with a death godlike.

Eothas is my favorite role play choice, but the powers are so boring (I remember when this was focused on elemental damage in the beta and I created a custom subclass mod that replaced the generic priest spells with some special burn DoTs and other powers, but I lost my files for it, and don’t feel like trying to recreate the whole mod on my steam deck).

Magran, Skaen and Woedica don’t interest me that much. I love skaen and woedica’s powers, but feel too bad when I pick the cruel choices, so I feel like it comes down to Wael or Berath.

If you play with a mod that fix RoS, Berath is very good. But for a forbidden fist I think Wael fits better