The untouchable rogue build

[SenSx]

Hello,

I have a simple build: Trickster/Soulblade (playing with CP and BPM)

I wanted a rogue archetype that would be built around very high defense and easy counter attacks.

So trickster for the defense buff and some debuff, and the Soulblade for cipher buff and soul annhilation for more damage.

 

Death Godlike (RP)

Deadfire and slave origin (RP)

Berath Blessing

 

Two sabres, two stilettos, two blunt weapon (probably Magistrate's Cudge and Sungrazer for stun on crit).

 

Max out perception and dexterity, rest in intelligence for longer spell duration.

 

Active rogue abilities :

 

Escape

Confounding Blind

Devastating Blow

 

 

Passive rogue abilities :

 

Arms Bearer (I like to have a set of weapon with each kind of damage)

Dirty Fighting

Two Weapon Style

Riposte

Persistent Distraction

Deep Wounds

Uncanny Luck

Improved Critical

Deathblows

 

 

Active cipher abilities :

 

Eyestrike

Borrowed Instinct

 

(not much here, main goal is to get the huge precision and defense buff, keep the ennemies blinded, and use soul annhilation for the rest of the focus)

 

 

Passive cipher abilities :

 

Iron will

Bull will

Lingering Echoes

Biting Whip

Hammering Thoughts

Psychic Backlash

Farcasting

Keen Mind

Rapid Casting

The Empty Soul

Echoing Horror

 

 

Watcher abilities:

No pity for the Lost (for steadfast inspiration)

Death's Herald: tier 3 intelligence inspiration ? (for brilliance)

 

I wish I could afford Adept Evasion to follow the "untouchable rogue" idea

It's not as great as it was in PoE 1 but it's still nice.

But I don't know what to sacrifice for that.

 

This is a very heavy ressource dependant build.

With all the trickster and costy rogue abilities.

At best I'll have 9 + 5 (empower) = 14 

I'll start the combat with 3 guiles for Mirrored Image, remaining rogue abilities cost 2, and if I want to have fun with the other trickster abilities, I'll be a bit limited.

That is why I picked the Watcher abiliy for brilliance inspiration.

Do you think it will be ok without it and I should pick the perception or might one ?

 

Thanks 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 11:35 AM by SenSx

[tackthumb]

One thing to keep in mind about the Watcher ability is that it is per-rest so you'll need to do a lot of resting if you want to incorporate it as a mainstay of your build. Brilliance is nice and all, but I don't think it's necessary to rest after each combat to have it ready for the next encounter or that you should be so worried about running out of resources. The nice thing about your multiclass choice is that even though you may run out of Guile, your Rogue class is still providing nice passive benefit from Persistent Distraction enabling Sneak Attack and Deathblows, and you have a fairly spammable attack ability in the form of Soul Annihilation.

A Cipher active ability you might find useful is Psychovampiric Shield. It gives you a Resolve inspiration which will stack with Mirrored Image and Borrowed Instinct. Since you're also intending to go for high defenses and counterattacks, you may want to consider Whispers of the Endless Paths. You already have good Deflection potential with the aforementioned three spells and Offensive Parry would give you more counterattack chances to go along with Riposte. It may require you to move some attribute points into Resolve and equip supplementing +Deflection gear to make it more consistent, depending on your game difficulty level. Borrowed Instinct is also only available at level 13 as a multiclass, so it comes together slower compared to some other tanky builds that use Whispers of the Endless Path. On the other hand, your build also debuffs enemy accuracy with Eyestrike/Persistent Distraction to partly make up for that until you get the big defense boost from Borrowed Instinct.

[SenSx]

Thanks for your feedback.

I know the watcher ability is peer rest.

But that is why I picked the intelligence one, I won't have to rely on it during all fight, but I know it's there in case I need it, with the empower too, so that I don't have to worry about the ressource management and I can have fun during longer fights.

I know this build is probably not super attractive because not very sophisticated.

I'm barely picking any cipher spells, but from my experiment on previous run with a similar character, I picked many cipher spells, and I ended not using them much, except borrowed instinct and soul annhilation.

The charm ones are strong, but in end game, I'd rather keep the ennemies engaged with my tank and kill them.

 

[tackthumb]

I think it is totally fine to have a simplified build like this if it's doing everything you want it to do. In fact, the reason why I made my suggestions is because I think they would  align with the stated goals in your original post and offer some refinements for that kind of build. I think Psychovampiric Shield is worth taking if you can fit it into your build because it is a Resolve inspiration that's stackable with your other sources of Deflection bonus, and every point of Deflection that you can stack really matters if you want to become truly untouchable. Whispers of the Endless Path's Offensive Parry would then give you the easy counterattacks you were looking for, and more consistently compared to just Riposte's 30% chance (I believe the Community patch buffs Riposte up a little, though).

I know you were concerned about not having the Guile to be able to use some of the other cool Trickster abilities, which I completely understand. However, with a Whispers of the Endless Path build, paralyzing or terrifying enemies would be counterproductive because you want enemies to be attacking you to trigger Offensive Parry so you wouldn't really be missing out by not using those Trickster abilities. Using your Guile to only keep up Mirrored Image might feel less bad now that you can think of it as doing double duty because your defense will become offense WotEP. The damage you do with Offensive Parry also generates Focus so you can keep up Borrowed Instinct, Psychovampiric Shield, and use Soul Annihilation more frequently. The points you are already putting into Intellect for spell duration can also be thought of as a damage contributor with a WotEP build as it will increase the AoE size of its attack cone and hopefully hit more enemies with every swing.

I don't want to push the idea of a WotEP build too hard on you or oversell it because it does have its issues for this particular multiclass. I think you would need to reassign some attribute points into Resolve and then dedicate some equipment slots for gear with Deflection bonus, which you might not want to do. The fact that Borrowed Instinct becomes available kind of late is also a valid concern, especially when you compare it to other multiclass setups like a Paladin/Trickster for instance, who can max out their Faith and Conviction/Deep Faith defensive bonus relatively early depending on their disposition. A multiclassed cipher WotEP build can eventually get their Deflection up to decent numbers thanks to their spells but it's not going to be as soon as some others.

[tackthumb]

I remember now I recently tested some weapon and shields effects for Focus generation in this thread which might be helpful for alternative gear ideas if using Whispers of the Endless Paths doesn't appeal to you.

[SenSx]

The thing is, for roleplay reason, I don't want to use two handed weapons on my rogue, so Whispers of the Endless Path is a nope.

 

However you are making me hesitating to start over for 18 resolve points instead of 18 intelligence points.

I'm not sure what is more valuable...

I actually like longer buff duration, and on lvl 20 I don't know what will be the difference for my main buffs and debuffs duration between 10 and 18 intelligence points (Borrowed Instinct, Psychovampiric Shield, Eye strike, Confunding Blind) (and to a lesser extant, the watcher abilities).

On the other hand I'll be able to cast again Borrowed Instinct and Eye strike when needed, and Mirror Image and Llengrath's Displaced Image alwready last long enough.

Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage and Gaze of the Adragan are fun to play around with, Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights for preception affiction resistant ennemies,  don't know how 18 intelligence affects them...

 

I did not consider Psychovampiric Shield at first because I would have the watcher ability that alwready grants the resolve inspiration, but it's peer rest...

So I need to squeeze Psychovampiric Shield and adept evasion in my build now, I don't know how 

 

By the way there is the Champion's Cape that also gives 10% chance to riposte against missed attacks, I wonder if it stacks with the rogue riposte (but not sure if it's worth it for only 10% and only against miss, it's also very late game gear).

 

Edited Monday at 02:27 PM by SenSx

[tackthumb]

That's a tricky dilemma. For me at least, high Resolve and Deflection stacking wouldn't be as attractive on this build without Whispers of the Endless Paths turning it into weapon damage. If it were me, I would actually go back to your original plan of default Resolve and no Psychovampiric Shield. The way I personally look at Trickster is that it allows me to play "greedy" where I can play a frontline character who doesn't necessarily have to invest in defenses to the same degree as other builds because I have Mirrored Image. Mirrored Image isn't the perfect defense (only boosts Deflection, can be dispelled, max bonus is progressively lowered after being hit, and is only available roughly after the starting island for a multiclass), but I think it is still good enough until you get Borrowed Instinct. At the point you'll have fairly solid defense from those stacked abilities for minimal investment. My personal bias is I don't like pumping Resolve so high on a character that isn't going to a main tank. However, you did want to make an untouchable rogue in which case it might make more sense for you to invest even further in Resolve.

As far as Intellect, it can be quite valuable for buffing and debuffing duration. For your purposes, you can think of it as both a resource economy attribute, stretching out the value of your Guile per ability usage, and also as an action economy resource since the longer your durations last, the less time you have to spend recasting or reapplying your buffs and debuffs and the more time you can spend on attacking.

I think it's going to boil down to whether you want to emphasize tanking or debuffing and figuring out what your build is mainly about.

Regarding riposte, different gear and abilities that have counterattack don't quite stack like you may be thinking, but instead are separate instances that may independently trigger their counterattack. So multiple sources of riposte can have a chance to each trigger off of the same miss. From the testing thread I linked earlier, it may interest you to know that Tuotilo's Palm has a counterattack that generates Focus. As a bashing shield, it also counts as an offhand weapon for Two Weapon Fighting purposes, and can simultaneously take the Weapon and Shield Style passive. It may be a nice early option to boost your Deflection if you find Mirrored Image not enough before you get Borrowed Instinct.

[SenSx]

Well I switched Int to resolve.

Good thing is that I can change whenever I want with console command.

I might try like that first, and if I feel the spell duration is too short, that it forces me to cast to often  and that is too cost heavy in ressource I can always reverse the attribute.

I still want to try that untouchable rogue build, even if it's not optimal without Whispers of the Endless Paths, and even if I alwready have a tank.

 

I would like to squeeze Psychovampiric Shield as you suggested and adept evasion.

But I need to remove to passive abilities...

 

What do you think I should give up ?

I'm thinking I should leave one of these:

 

The Empty Soul : +10 Accuracy with Cipher Spells vs. Will

Only usefull for Borrowed Instinct in my build, but could help getting criticals.

(don't know if it works with Echoing Horror, which is a passive and not a spell, it could make it more valuable).

 

Rapid Casting : +10% Action Speed with Spells

Faster casting  seems good on my build that requires to buff and debuff a lot.

But 10% speed seems meaningfull, I don't even know how much time I will save on a character with alwready maxed out dexterity (22 I think whith Berath Blessing)

 

Farcasting : +20% Range with Spells

the bonus is better than rapid casting, however the nature itself of the bonus does not seem as good.

My rogue could easily move to get in range, only usefull to cast during combat I don't want to disengage.

 

Keen Mind : +2 Focus peer level at the start of a combat up to +40 Focus at lvl 20 (PBM mod)

At lvl 20 I could start fights with 90 Focus instead of 50.

It allows to cas Borrowed Instinct + blind, or get 10 focus fast for Psychovampiric Shield, or Borrowed Instinct a second time if first cast fails.

I don't know how valuable it can be, but it seems quite handy to start combat without having to strike ennemies for focus generation.

 

Echoing Horror : Foe AoE per kill: Frightened for 12.0 sec | Accuracy vs. Will per 3.0 sec

I don't know if it's a must but I actually like this one, since Frightened allows sneak attack, also good for perception affliction immuned ennemies.

I don't know if the Empty Soul works with it, it could make The Empty Soul more valuable.

 

Or I can just forget the idea of Psychovampiric Shield and only try to get Adept Evation.

 

Thanks for your help tackthumb !

[tackthumb]

Between the two, I would actually take Psychovampiric Shield over Adept Evasion. They're not directly comparable but if they're competing for the same space, I think Psychovampiric Shield would suit your build better now that you have settled on the more tanky approach. Adept Evasion is actually pretty nice and helpful on a tank, especially if you combine it with Weapon and Shield Style and use the large shield modal to make enemy Reflex attacks virtually inconsequential against you. However, I believe you are looking at dual wielding rather than using a shield. Since you are planning to max out your Perception and Dexterity anyway, your Reflex defense will already be fairly strong without the graze to miss conversion from Adept Evasion (though it is nice to have). It boils down to: Adept Evasion would diversify your defense by protecting you against Reflex-targeting effects like AoE spells, while Psychovampiric Shield would heighten your Deflection and help you get to the point of being untouchable against weapon attacks.

Of the listed passive abilities that you're thinking of getting rid of, I would definitely drop Echoing Horror for some space for Psychovampiric Shield and/or Adept Evasion. I agree with you that the Frightened status effect is nice, especially on a tanky build like yours. By preventing enemies from using their hostile abilities with Frightened, you force them into making standard attacks with their weapons instead which you can avoid with your high Deflection or punish with Riposte (though be aware that enemies can still do non-hostile actions like heal and buff while Frightened). However, I find that the kill requirement on Echoing Horror makes it less responsive and reliable. I would actually replace it with Secret Horrors so I have a form of Frightened that I can cast at will. Of course, they aren't directly comparable since Secret Horrors is a spell that has to be cast while Echoing Horror is a passive, and you might not want to have this character have yet another spell they need to be casting all the time. You can always have another party member casting it for you, though.

I do want to bring up the point that you should consider your choices for your build in the context of your party. Just like how you earlier decided to invest in Resolve over Intellect to move closer back to your original concept, you should consider letting your other party members handle some of the duties so you can focus on what specifically helps your character become the untouchable rogue like you intend. Borrowed Instinct and Psychovampiric Shield are good examples of the spells you want to be casting because they are "transfer" type spells that debuff an enemy while buffing you as the caster with defensive buffs that specifically match your intended goal. Persistent Distraction is a good example of a passive that you want to be taking because it lowers enemy accuracy which helps you trigger Riposte, gives you +1 Engagement, and passively enables Sneak Attack and Deathblows on the enemies you engage. However, casting things like Secret Horrors or Eyestrike might not be as good of a use of your time. While they would certainly benefit you as a Rogue who profits off Afflictions, they compete for action time you could instead spend on attacking and use up Focus that you could instead be using for Soul Annihilation. It might just be better to let a party member Druid cast Venombloom or a Wizard cast Chillfog to get the same effects on enemies while your main character focuses on what they do best. Similarly, you could cast Gaze of the Adragan yourself as a Trickster, or you could save the Guile on your actual attack abilities and let your Wizard cast it, who may have better Intellect and can do a better job at casting it. While it's nice to be self-sufficient, you can let your party handle some redundant duties and specialize more into what your build is trying to do. Just something to consider.

[Chaospread]

I'd also drop Echoing Horror from the list above.
Anyway, since you count on many sources of riposte, why not take some point from DEX (because riposte attacks are instantaneous) to MIG to raise damage?

[tackthumb]

The problem with factoring Riposte into your DPS and maybe substituting it for Dexterity is that it is highly variable. Because it is a chance-based trigger off specifically melee attacks, it's effectiveness is going to depend on things like the composition of enemy types in an encounter, enemy attack rate, positioning, getting the enemy AI to focus you, the prevalence of disabling and crowd controlling abilities in your party that might interfere with enemy melee attacks, etc. You can control some of those factors but it's not going to be 100 percent efficient in every encounter. The reason why I like Whispers of the Endless Paths when going the tanky, counter attacking route is because at least Offensive Parry has a 100% chance to hit on enemy misses, making it a bit more dependable, and its AoE standard attack can be thought of as a way of maintaining DPS through multihit rather than attack rate if you decide to sacrifice some Dexterity. But SenSx isn't using WotEP due to RP, which is fair and understandable, so I'll stop bringing it up since it's irrelevant 

I think the default Might is okay since the build isn't using any damage spells and it has some nice weapon damage modifiers like Sneak Attack, Deathblows, Soul Whip, and Soul Annihilation, and good critical hit potential from max Perception and Borrowed Instinct to make up for it. But a related concern may be low Fortitude from going with default Might and Constitution which can leave you vulnerable to stuff like Knock Down. If you find yourself getting bullied too often on the front lines, you could take Bear's Fortitude instead of Bull's Will that's already in the build. Luckily, the +20 to all defenses from Borrowed Instinct will help even out some of your weaknesses later on.

[Chaospread]

11 hours ago, tackthumb said:

Offensive Parry has a 100% chance to hit on enemy misses

OP has 100% chance to trigger on enemy misses, against 30% of Riposte, not 100% chance to hit.
For the rest part I agree with you.

[tackthumb]

Fair correction, I've been trying to give an even-keeled impression of Whispers of the Endless, and a 100 percent chance to hit would make it seem better than it actually is. But since it's outside of SenSx's build concept and RP, which I totally respect, I promise to stop bringing it up! 

[Chaospread]

Anyway but, could a hypothetical "riposte rogue" have DEX maxed? Or Not? And which subclass / multiclass could fit well with him?

[tackthumb]

Yeah I think you would still want to have some Dexterity as a Riposte Rogue, assuming you're going for a damage role and not one that is purely tanking. Even though Riposte is independent of your recovery bar, it doesn't quite supplant the need for Dexterity on a striker Rogue for me, at least for the purpose of making non-Riposte, normal attacks which I think would remain the main form of damage. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, Riposte is just too variable (chance-based, relies on the presence of melee enemies, their attack rate, etc.) to be a consistent form of damage across all the different combat encounters you come across in the game. Just as an extreme example, if you were to make a Riposte Rogue with multiple sources of Riposte-like gear such as Tuotilo's Palm and Champion's Helm who dumped Dexterity and ignored standard attacking but pumped Deflection high enough to make enemies reliably miss their attacks, I think you would be disappointed by their damage output once you find yourself in situations like encounters that are light on melee combatants. I think it's probably better to treat Riposte as incidental, bonus damage rather than as a principal means of damage if dealing damage is an important element of your build.

But if you were to build a hypothetical Riposte Rogue, for subclass I think the Trickster makes sense as a baseline for the +30 Deflection from Mirrored Image. Then you multiclass that with a class that boosts Defense (even though you might think of Deflection as a subset of Defense, they are technically different stats and would stack if you have one active ability that states it boosts Defenses specifically and combine it with another active that says Deflection). So you could look at multiclassing Trickster with a Paladin for their Faith and Conviction/Deep Faith passive defense, Fighter for their Vigorous Defense, or Cipher for Borrowed Instinct (and Psychovampiric Shield as a further stackable bonus due to being classified as an Inspiration). Lowering enemy accuracy would help with making them more likely to miss and trigger Riposte, so abilities like Paladn's Glorious Beacon, Cipher's Eyestrike, and Trickster's own Persistent Distraction and Blinding Strike would have extra synergy. And of course, you need sufficient accuracy yourself to land the Riposte attack so abilities like Fighter's Disciplined Barrage and Cipher's Borrowed Instinct could be pertinent.

Here I go breaking my promise not to bring up WotEP any more, but the calculus for all of the above changes for me if wielding Whispers of the Endless Paths. By simply having a 100% chance to proc an attack roll from misses, I'd feel more comfortable maybe sacrificing some Dexterity and relying on Offensive Parry more as a legitimate damage source. While it would have the same issues as Riposte in those non-deal situations, it would at least have better consistency in the situations where counterattacking is applicable. The Trickster/Soul Blade combo from the OP in particular is nice because Offensive Parry would be passively generating Focus which could then be used for delivering Soul Annihilation in an AoE for burst damage to make up for the lowered attack rate if you took less Dexterity (though it's been a while since I used Soul Annihilation with Whispers of the Endless Paths and I vaguely recall the Soul Annihilation damage not quite being distributed equally to all enemies in WotEP's attack cone or some other quirky irregularity). And if I have a more consistent form of counterattack with WotEP, I might not need Riposte at all any more which frees me up to choose another class instead of Trickster for my source of high Deflection, such as Priest of Wael or Wizard who both also get access to Mirrored Image. That opens up some more cool multiclass possibilities, but it's getting way off topic so I apologize for the digression.

[Chaospread]

I asked you because in my mind I'd would in the future build a fence/swordsman and one class I thinked about was Rogue obviously.

A RPG-wise char with dagger, stiletto and rapier as primary weapons, quick and speed with high defense (mocking musketeer like parrying abilities) who has riposte or similar skills in his arsenal
I also thought trickster for defense or streetfighter for action speed, streetfighter fit well with cipher abilities and a multiclass martial/caster is almost always a good combo cause you have a renewable form of resource. Also wiz and priest could fit as caster, but cipher seems better from rpg perspective too.

I'd like also monk cause renewable resource, damage and speed skills and Tuotilo's Palm, but a "pure" caster (since I play SOLO) should be better. But a monk need damage, and we have high defences in theory... but Nalpazca or Forbidden Fist can be workarounds for that...

WotEP is anyway an option because in some encouters I suppose it "can do the work" where "regular" weapons fails, especially with many foes at once.
With WotEP a Barbarian works well, but it will go far from the build I have in mind

At range, pistols and arquebuses (like a musketeer) can go.

I guess riposte/riposte similar abilities plus some defense tricks, high rogue accuracy, speed, stacking disengage defense and moving in and out engagement to trigger riposte can be a very fun build.
Maybe I'll open a thread in future, before I have to finish a run with my wildrhymer (and after that maybe my classic fire-druid :D... so you can see that thread maybe in one year ).
For now thanks for the information, I save your message in my build notes
Maybe this lines can be helpful also for OP
 

[SenSx]

So, yes I have acknowledged that Whispers of the Endless Paths would be perfect for my build but I think I will still gear my character how I planned for now.

I don't mind not having something 100% optimal, I try to make the best I can by still following my idea of the character.

I managed to finish the game with an assassin that what really bad, I barely never used the assassin abilities as I was not a fan of how much ressources it was eating, and so I played it with the assassin con penalty, but none of its advantages, he died a lot.

This run is kinda my revenge on this, this time, good luck for killing him ! at least I hop so...

But thanks for all the advices, it shows that this game has so many possibilities, and your reactions and enthousiastic ideas here prove it, I'm happy if it can inspire other peole, thank you.

 

 

I think I will follow your advice and drop Echoing horror for adept evasion.

Not sure if it is really better, but it follows more the idead of the build, and Echoing horror might be a bit too situationnal.

 

I will wait before deciding if I sacrifice something else for Psychovampiric Shield.

On top of replacing another skills, I'm worry my rogue would have too many spells to cast, and too much focus needed: Borrowed Instinct, Mirror Image, Llengrath's Displaced Image, Eyestrike, watcher ability for int brillance aspiration to get ressource back.

So I'll try without it for now, and in case I really need the resolve inspiration I'll still get the one from the peer rest watcher ability...

 

My main affliction will be a perception one, which will be an issue against immune ennemies.

I got the might and dexterity ones for a short duration from the trickster spells (Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights and Gaze of the Adragan), the frightened from the watcher ability peer rest and that's it, or rely on allies.

I still prefer to pick Confounding Blind over Crippling Strike.

And since I use BPM mod, I really need to inflict 2 affliction to get the deathblow sneak attack bonus (persistant distraction only lower defenses now, it does not inflicts 2 conditions anymore).

That's the weakness of the character.

 

I wonder something though: do you know if Llengrath's Displaced Image and adept evasion stack ?

The first make 30% of hit become grazes against reflex, and the second makes 100% of grazes become miss.

Do those 30% of hits converted to grazes then become miss as well if you have both the abilities ? Or still grazes ?

Would be a bit too good to be true imo.

Edited 4 hours ago by SenSx