Opinions on a specific role-play build for MC Monk (FF)

[De_jesus]

Hi - I'm a long time lurker, but this is my first post. Most of my questions are typically answered in other threads. Though, I'm running into a mental block and was hoping to outsource an opinion on a role-play build.

I'm working on build a multi-class monk (forbidden fist) and I'm stuck on the second class. I'm trying to find a synergy between my vision for role-play and combat.

Essentially, my build will be:
Difficulty: Veteran
Race: Dwarf
Culture: Old Vailia (aristocrat)

So, my character should be a well-to-do Old Vailian with a penchant for chasing and implementing forbidden knowledge. That's how I envision the role play aspect. And I want the "combat build" to synergize with that. For combat, I want to make the most of the FF +50% hostile effect duration. To do that, I'm looking at builds that offer either strong afflictions or DOT spells, with my role play goals in mind. For example, Druid would be a great class combat wise due to the DOT spells, but unless she's a Fury (Vailians are great sailors), a druid build doesn't really make sense for a high society aristocrat. You see what I mean?

Role-play: High society aristocrat that chases forbidden knowledge
Combat: DPS - capable of making her enemies body and/or mind suffer.

MCs I'm looking at and why:
1. Chanter (Troubadour): obvious synergies with The Thunder Rolled and Killers Froze Stiff
2. Cipher (any really): obvious lore-friendly build, but I wanted to take serafen this round. To befriend him and then piss him off by killing all pirates.
3. Fighter: high conversion for monk strikes but no real afflictions or DOT spells
4. Paladin - I always play a paladin. Always. Love them. But want to strike it out this go.
5. Priest (Wael): I like the defensive spells and the buffing is nice, but the lack of true DOT spells puts me off (there is divine mark but there are a lot of ways to lower deflection to not fussed about it)
6. Rogue: obvious synergies but the class is not jumping at me. (I did a one-handed Sekiro build with rogue / ranger some time ago and it was devastating. Rogue is like paladin, I always find my way back to it.)
7. Wizard (Ilusionist): I feel this would synergize perfectly but the idea of giving up wizard classes, that I honestly don't plan to use, doesn't sit well with me.

So, I figured I'd source an alternative opinion or two to help me whittle it down. I've been starting and restarting for weeks on this. It's less about min-maxing my character combat wise and more leaning into a well thought out role-play with them. Combat on Veteran is more than manageable with any class.

Additionally, I plan to pair them with a sister character. Dwarven sisters that enjoy making their enemies suffer.

[Boeroer]

I always liked FF/Beguiler in order to extend the duration of Mind Control via DualityOMP(INT), Enfeebled and Lingering Echoes. You can charm or dominate an enemy for a really long time with that combination. Also I think Beguiler and Old Vaillian fits somehow - also with the portrait options.

Also nice that you can hit a charmed enemy with Soul Ignition and/or Disintegrate and that enemy won't flip back to hostile but will keep fighting for you while dying.

---

Not on your list, but FF/Berserker has its appeal with the Confusion/Clarity of Agony & Crucible of Suffering combo. Don't pick Rooting Pain because you will interrupt yourself (while confused). With the shouts and Spirit Tornado there's als some afflictions to prolong, but mainly it's about using the self-inflicted confusion to your advantage. 

---

Also not on your list, but ever thought about FF/Druid? Like FF/Ancient for example? Touch of Rot and  Taste of the Hunt are brutal with enfeeble + INT bonus. And stuff like Insect Swarm and Plague of Insects profit a lot from +10 INT. But the shock spells such as Relentless Storm and Nature's Terror, too (maybe better with pick Fury then).
Embrace of the Earth Talon is also a good spell candidate. And if you would pick Hold Beasts you can paralyze beasts (except immune/resistant ones) for a really, really long time because the base duration is a whopping 20secs. 
With Tanglefoot you can create your own source of short-lived and rel. harmless afflictions (hobbled) that can give you wounds and healing all the time (because it does friendly fire).
Also, one of the most hilarious findings in my Deadfire time so far was that some spells work with Instruments of Pain (because they are labeled "melee" internally) - among them is Sunlance. It already has very long range (20m) and goes to 120m range via Instruments of Pain. You can stay at the other side of the map and throw a Sunlance towards an enemy (as long as you have a party member in place to actually see them - can be invisible or in stealth mode). Just a tidbit but it's fun.  

---

FF/Wizard can be nice too. I mean Sage in general is a nice multiclass and with FF there's no exception. May I lead your attention to the spell Fetid Caress? It is often overlooked because its paralyze is single target only (as is your FF attack with the Enfeeble though) - but it delivers a pretty long paralyze effect for such a low level spell (PL or tier 2). Combined with +10INT from DualityOMP(INT) and +50% from Enfeeblement - and also the generous Power Level scaling (because it is of low starting Power Level) - you can get a very long paralyze time out of it. Also targets fortitude which should be a fair bit lower after you struck an enemy with enfeeblement. It has a range of 5m which is roughly in line with your melee range+Instruments of Pain (4.8m).
Even an Illusionist can cast it.
The most interesting spells might be Ryngrim's I think.

---

FF/Chanter is also appealing. The cone shaped invocations gain the most impressive AoE increase from all the INT the Monk has to offer. And stuff like Killers Froze Stiff turns into a very good tool with that much size and also additional duration from the INT bonus alone. Picking out some individuals and giving them even longer downtime is fun, too. Also check out "Ben Fidel's neck was exposed" - because its "-10 to all defenses" debuff stacks with all debuffs from afflictions and also other debuffs of individual defenses (like with a Miasma for example). And it causes frighten, too (helpful to cast it before Killers Froze stiff for example). So - it can be a nice addition to the debuff cycle - or just an alternative if enemies are resistant or even immune to DEX afflictions (see Killers FS). There is no immunity to Ben Fidel's defense debuff (only the frighten part).

---

I personally think the first and the last options would be the most enjoyable (at least they would be for me, for now) because resources would be limitless and the abilities are still impactful and fun to use.

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Boeroer

[Shai Hulud]

11 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I always liked FF/Beguiler in order to extend the duration of Mind Control via DualityOMP(INT), Enfeebled and Lingering Echoes. You can charm or dominate an enemy for a really long time with that combination. Also I think Beguiler and Old Vaillian fits somehow - also with the portrait options.

Also nice that you can hit a charmed enemy with Soul Ignition and/or Disintegrate and that enemy won't flip back to hostile but will keep fighting for you while dying.

---

Not on your list, but FF/Berserker has its appeal with the Confusion/Clarity of Agony & Crucible of Suffering combo. Don't pick Rooting Pain because you will interrupt yourself (while confused). With the shouts and Spirit Tornado there's als some afflictions to prolong, but mainly it's about using the self-inflicted confusion to your advantage. 

---

Also not on your list, but ever thought about FF/Druid? Like FF/Ancient for example? Touch of Rot and  Taste of the Hunt are brutal with enfeeble + INT bonus. And stuff like Insect Swarm and Plague of Insects profit a lot from +10 INT. But the shock spells such as Relentless Storm and Nature's Terror, too (maybe better with pick Fury then).
Embrace of the Earth Talon is also a good spell candidate. And if you would pick Hold Beasts you can paralyze beasts (except immune/resistant ones) for a really, really long time because the base duration is a whopping 20secs. 
With Tanglefoot you can create your own source of short-lived and rel. harmless afflictions (hobbled) that can give you wounds and healing all the time (because it does friendly fire).
Also, one of the most hilarious findings in my Deadfire time so far was that some spells work with Instruments of Pain (because they are labeled "melee" internally) - among them is Sunlance. It already has very long range (20m) and goes to 120m range via Instruments of Pain. You can stay at the other side of the map and throw a Sunlance towards an enemy (as long as you have a party member in place to actually see them - can be invisible or in stealth mode). Just a titdbit but it's fun.  

---

FF/Wizard can be nice too. I mean Sage in general is a nice multiclass in general and with FF there's no exception. May I lead your attention to the spell Fetid Caress? It is often overlooked because it's single target only (as is your FF attack with the Enfeeble though) - but it delivers a pretty long paralyze effect for such a low level spell (PL or tier 2). Combined with +10INT from DualityOMP(INT) and +50% from Enfeeblement - and also the generous Power Level scaling (because it is of low starting Power Level) - you can get a very long paralyze time out of it. Also targets fortitude which should be a fair bit lower after you struck an enemy with enfeeblement. It has a range of 5m which is roughly in line with your melee range+Instruments of Pain (4.8m).
Even an Illusionist can cast it.
The most interesting spells might be Ryngrim's I think.

---

FF/Chanter is also appealing. The cone shaped invocations gain the most impressive AoE increase from all the INT the Monk has to offer. And stuff like Killers Froze Stiff turns into a very good tool with that much size and also additional duration from the INT bonus alone. Picking out some individuals and giving them even longer downtime is fun, too. Also check out "Ben Fidel's neck was exposed" - because its "-10 to all defenses" debuff stacks with all debuffs from afflictions and also other debuffs of individual defenses (like with a Miasma for example). And it causes frighten, too (helpful to cast it before Killers Froze stiff for example). So - it can be a nice addition to the debuff cycle - or just an alternative if enemies are resistant or even immune to DEX afflictions (see Killers FS). There is no immunity to Ben Fidel's defense debuff (only the frighten part).

---

I personally think the first and the last options would be the most enjoyable (at least they would be for me, for now) because resources would be limitless and the abilities are still impactful and fun to use.

 

FF / soul blade is insanely good and should fir with your role-playing. 

Stats 

14/8/3/19/13/18

I can provide a full build later, let me know if interested, but as soul blade you build focus really fast with FF and can use soul annihilation for massive damage. You cast psychovampiroc shield and borrowed instinct a lot. Many debuffs that will last a long time like secret horrors, phantom foes, mental binding, wild leech, etc.

You do need the community patch for cipher to work properly with FF attack.

You can't max INT with FF because it increases duration of forbidden curse. You can have up to about 13 base and use enlightened agony which boosts to 18 (which is enough to give decent buff length particularly since you crit a lot with the buff/debuffs like PVS and borrowed instinct) and gives -50% hostile effects on self. Combine with ring of solitary wanderer and maxed resolve to get forbidden curse down to under 2s. 

 

[Boeroer]

11 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

You do need the community patch for cipher to work properly with FF attack.

That's why I like a Beguiler better for the unmodded game - a Beguiler can gain  lot of focus from just casting one or two of the cheaper AoE deceptions (like Phantom Foes and Secret Horrors) on enough enemies. And also spells like Whisper of Treason etc. are considerably cheaper.

Also do not pick Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming if you want to use the Forbidden Fist attack a lot (I guess everybody does ;)) and if the game has no Community Patch mod. They won't work. Lightning Strikes (+15% shocking lash) does work though. By the way: Inner Death (Monk PL9) has the same problem (also fixed with Community Patch) - but that's only an issue with single class monks of course.

If you do install the Community Patch mod (not possible on consoles, otherwise it's easy - but don't know about Steam Deck) then both of my objections are moot and FF/Soulblade and also Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming are cool options.  

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

11 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

You can't max INT with FF because it increases duration of forbidden curse. You can have up to about 13 base and use enlightened agony which boosts to 18 (which is enough to give decent buff length particularly since you crit a lot with the buff/debuffs like PVS and borrowed instinct) and gives -50% hostile effects on self. Combine with ring of solitary wanderer and maxed resolve to get forbidden curse down to under 2s. 

When combining items, abilities and the right food (Mohora Wraps for example) you can max INT and use Turning Wheel on top - and then with a bit slower recovery (if in doubt: Patinated Plate with Bronze Juggernaut ;)) you can still spam the FF attack without stacking the curse. Especially if you alternate FF attack and Soul Annihilation. I that case you can also do with a much ligher armor (see Cabalist's Gambeson for shorter hostile effects).
I love high INT on almost all builds, it's so convenient to have big AoEs with big foe-only parts and long durations. 
But in the early game it's fiddly to get there and you might have to wait with strikes in order to not kill yourself and that's no fun. It's probably an easier entry into the subclass if you don't max INT.

[Shai Hulud]

6 hours ago, Boeroer said:

When combining items, abilities and the right food (Mohora Wraps for example) you can max INT and use Turning Wheel on top - and then with a bit slower recovery (if in doubt: Patinated Plate with Bronze Juggernaut ;)) you can still spam the FF attack without stacking the curse. Especially if you alternate FF attack and Soul Annihilation. I that case you can also do with a much ligher armor (see Cabalist's Gambeson for shorter hostile effects).
I love high INT on almost all builds, it's so convenient to have big AoEs with big foe-only parts and long durations. 
But in the early game it's fiddly to get there and you might have to wait with strikes in order to not kill yourself and that's no fun. It's probably an easier entry into the subclass if you don't max INT.

I've tested with Cabalist's Gambeson + Strand of Favor + Clarity of Agony + Ring of Solitary Wanderer (not mohora wraps though, I like hylea's bounty) and the highest I could get my INT safely was 13 with dex tanked all the way to 3 (modified was like 8). That's base INT, with smart + boons + items it was like 20ish maybe. I was always wearing robes or at most like Devil of Caroc BP with abraham to keep the recovery down. Yeah I guess if you're willing to have a long recovery you can max INT, but the character will be slowww. Unless I was doing something completely wrong...

Also dual-wielding and two-weapon style make a huge difference of course. If you aren't using a dual-wielding shield or weapon you can get away with significantly higher INT but probably be attacking every 3 to 4 seconds instead of 2. 

[De_jesus]

Thanks to you both I have decided.

My Watcher will be FF Monk / Debonaire Rogue. It fits my roleplay criteria perfectly. A high society old vailian dwarf that seeks forbidden knowledge and is has a penchant for... subterfuge/death.
Build: Dwarf, Old Vailian, Aristrocrat - 14/8/13/14/12/18 (w/o berath blessing)
- Low constitution because my character is an aristocrat (RP reasons)

She will be paired with a Leshen (Dwarf Nature Godlike - Ancient Druid / Psion Cipher). The RP is "A Leshen that has walked the lands of the Eastern Reach for hundreds of years has bonded itself with the Watcher of Caed Nua. And followed her to the Deadfire Archipelago.)"

I chose to go this direction after assessing what I was hoping to accomplish with one character, where I wanted to be a devastating DPS (I often prefer single target DPS because... reasons) and a natural affinity to CC. However, after reading Boeroer's point on the Ancient and seeing some other points he's made on Psions across other threads convinced me that I really wanted to find a way to go in that direction.

So, the plan is that the Rogue / Monk takes advantage of FF and Hit to Crit on Charmed targets to liberally distribute damage. I also wanted to use soul blade on my watcher but feel rogue provides more DPS versatility. I may use dual hand mortars later to manage crowds - I've read about Boeroer's Monk with Hand Mortars several times - especially as my Leshen gets access to more power levels (e.g. ringleader) On the other side, the Leshen is tasked with devastating the mind, body, and soul of the Watcher's enemies. With one caveat - it can only buff the Watcher. Sorry, Eder, no tactical meld. It's not optimal for combat but Veteran isn't crazy challenging. Additionally, I've imported Shroud of the Phantasm (1% brilliant on receiving damage - chance to accrue resources in early game), Spider Silk Robe (dexterity immunity), and Strand of Favor (hostile effect duration). I am not sure how the rest of the build will round out, but I'm genuinely excited at the RP for this one. But I'll need to figure out the combat loop I'm happy with once my party rounds out a bit more.

Thank you both for the guidance.

Edited April 3, 2023 by De_jesus

[Boeroer]

Just some hints tow. Debonaire:

Engagement:
A Debonaire cannot engage enemies (ever). Therefore abilities which rely on/work with your engagement like "Persistent Distraction" (Rogue) or "Parting Sorrow" (Monk) are trap choices: they will not get disabled during level-up, so best to watch out and not accidentially pick them.

This also means you cannot stop movement of enemies by engaging them (engaging cancels movement commands of enemies and makes them stop) or deal any disengagement attacks vs. those enemies who decide to give you a pass in melee. This can lead to you missing your enemy because the moment you strike the enemy might take a step back out of the 0.8m melee range (you can see a "out of reach" message in the combat log). This will not happen too often - but if it does you will know where it came from.

This is all moot if you use ranged weapons like mortarts of course - because then you cannot engage anyway and you cannot miss because of "out of range".

The Debonaire herself can still get engaged by enemies who are able to engage (most beasts cannot, some kith and wilders can... and so on). 

---

Charm/crit conversion:
Also note that only charmed enemies will give you the 100% crit conversion. Dominated enemies (for example turned via Puppet Master) will not give you that. Charmed enemies immediately flip back to hostile as soon as they get hit by you or your allies. This means you can only apply one 100%-crit-strike to a charmed enemy who will then turn hostile again. With hefty crit-punches this might not be an issue though because the enemy might die from the crit - I just want to point that out lest it is not known.

---

Alternative source for charms:
If you want an additional source of charm then a Chanter is a good one: the invocation doesn't last long (so hitting charmed enemies doesn't feel like a waste of CC) but can target several enemies at once with enough INT/big enough AoE size bonus. Maybe that's something to keep in mind to support the synergy with the FF/Debonaire further? Konstanten, Fassina, Pallegina, Tekehu and Vatnir could use this. Konstanten is a Skald so it's an even cheaper invocation for him to cast (only 3 phrases instead of 4), but his INT is low (10) - so the cone will be pretty small (2.5m length only) and it's difficult to hit several enemies around your main char with that microcone I reckon.    

 

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Boeroer

[Shai Hulud]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Just some hints tow. Debonaire:

Engagement:
A Debonaire cannot engage enemies (ever). Therefore abilities which rely on/work with your engagement like "Persistent Distraction" (Rogue) or "Parting Sorrow" (Monk) are trap choices: they will not get disabled during level-up, so best to watch out and not accidentially pick them.

This also means you cannot stop movement of enemies by engaging them (engaging cancels movement commands of enemies and makes them stop) or deal any disengagement attacks vs. those enemies who decide to give you a pass in melee. This can lead to you missing your enemy because the moment you strike the enemy might take a step back out of the 0.8m melee range (you can see a "out of reach" message in the combat log). This will not happen too often - but if it does you will know where it came from.

This is all moot if you use ranged weapons like mortarts of course - because then you cannot engage anyway and you cannot miss because of "out of range".

The Debonaire herself can still get engaged by enemies who are able to engage (most beasts cannot, some kith and wilders can... and so on). 

---

Charm/crit conversion:
Also note that only charmed enemies will give you the 100% crit conversion. Dominated enemies (for example turned via Puppet Master) will not give you that. Charmed enemies immediately flip back to hostile as soon as they get hit by you or your allies. This means you can only apply one 100%-crit-strike to a charmed enemy who will then turn hostile again. With hefty crit-punches this might not be an issue though because the enemy might die from the crit - I just want to point that out lest it is not known.

---

Alternative source for charms:
If you want an additional source of charm then a Chanter is a good one: the invocation doesn't last long (so hitting charmed enemies doesn't feel like a waste of CC) but can target several enemies at once with enough INT/big enough AoE size bonus. Maybe that's something to keep in mind to support the synergy with the FF/Debonaire further? Konstanten, Fassina, Pallegina, Tekehu and Vatnir could use this. Konstanten is a Skald so it's an even cheaper invocation for him to cast (only 3 phrases instead of 4), but his INT is low (10) - so the cone will be pretty small (2.5m length only) and it's difficult to hit several enemies around your main char with that microcone I reckon.    

 

 

Dual mortars works well on lower difficulties with stunning surge. I tried it in some harder battles and couldn't reliably crit things on potd upscaled. It is beautiful when it works though, good for the lower level enemies bosses often call to them, or the mooks you encounter dungeon crawling.  Whats really nice is stunned characters have -10 deflection making it much easier to restun them once you do crit some.

Getting the second mortar Fire in the hole can take a little while. A mortar/blunderbuss combo would also do okay. The mortar rolls for every enemy, the blunderbuss 4 times, so for smaller groups or if you really want to stun one enemy mortar/blunderbuss or dual blunderbuss is also an option.

[De_jesus]

11 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Just some hints tow. Debonaire:

Engagement:
A Debonaire cannot engage enemies (ever). Therefore abilities which rely on/work with your engagement like "Persistent Distraction" (Rogue) or "Parting Sorrow" (Monk) are trap choices: they will not get disabled during level-up, so best to watch out and not accidentially pick them.

This also means you cannot stop movement of enemies by engaging them (engaging cancels movement commands of enemies and makes them stop) or deal any disengagement attacks vs. those enemies who decide to give you a pass in melee. This can lead to you missing your enemy because the moment you strike the enemy might take a step back out of the 0.8m melee range (you can see a "out of reach" message in the combat log). This will not happen too often - but if it does you will know where it came from.

This is all moot if you use ranged weapons like mortarts of course - because then you cannot engage anyway and you cannot miss because of "out of range".

The Debonaire herself can still get engaged by enemies who are able to engage (most beasts cannot, some kith and wilders can... and so on). 

---

Charm/crit conversion:
Also note that only charmed enemies will give you the 100% crit conversion. Dominated enemies (for example turned via Puppet Master) will not give you that. Charmed enemies immediately flip back to hostile as soon as they get hit by you or your allies. This means you can only apply one 100%-crit-strike to a charmed enemy who will then turn hostile again. With hefty crit-punches this might not be an issue though because the enemy might die from the crit - I just want to point that out lest it is not known.

---

Alternative source for charms:
If you want an additional source of charm then a Chanter is a good one: the invocation doesn't last long (so hitting charmed enemies doesn't feel like a waste of CC) but can target several enemies at once with enough INT/big enough AoE size bonus. Maybe that's something to keep in mind to support the synergy with the FF/Debonaire further? Konstanten, Fassina, Pallegina, Tekehu and Vatnir could use this. Konstanten is a Skald so it's an even cheaper invocation for him to cast (only 3 phrases instead of 4), but his INT is low (10) - so the cone will be pretty small (2.5m length only) and it's difficult to hit several enemies around your main char with that microcone I reckon.    

 

 

I had not considered the impact no engagement would have on those durability passives like "Persistence Distraction". So thank you for calling that out. I do wish the community patch allowed for hit to Crit on dominated opponents. But being able to just beat on Dominated opponents is a great trade off. 

I've definitely run into the "out of reach" issue already with those imps in the first ruin, which I find hilarious for some odd reason. Highly trained monk who possesses forbidden knowledge midranges his jab. Comically inept. However, one thing I did learn was that you can miss a FF strike and still get the stack of Forbidden Curse. Not sure if there is any way to take advantage of that but I'm going to try. I think there is an item that gives you increased accuracy, I think, for every missed strike. Or I could be wrong. And I also learned/realized FF only converts hits to cries, not grazes and there are many to be had in that first ruin. 

And I've added Pallegina in place of Xoti for support. I love Xoti's southern twang but I can never find any reason to keep a priest early game. Late game they can burn enemies into ash and I love that. But nothing like having an undying Herald that charms feels almost unfair. And I can't wait. 
 

Question - if you don't mind - FF is a weapon attack with the community patch. But it doesn't actually use the weapon in your hand. Does it proc the benefits on the weapon, say like "On Kill buffs"

Edited April 3, 2023 by De_jesus

[Boeroer]

20 hours ago, De_jesus said:

Question - if you don't mind - FF is a weapon attack with the community patch. But it doesn't actually use the weapon in your hand. Does it proc the benefits on the weapon, say like "On Kill buffs"

In general the FF attack is its own weapon and doesn't care what you wear in your hand. It's like using a third arm with the FF-"fist".

If the effect the weapon has only gets applied when that weapon is actually used, then the FF-attack will not profit from it.

However, there are some weapons who have effects that apply to all your attacks, no matter if you used that weapon or something else (like FF or a spell or so). An example is Ball and Chain (a unique flail). Its enchantment that lowers enemies' crush AR ("Blunt Rock") would also work with your FF attack (and also spells and whatnot). Those effects are often called "universal" because they apply to all your attacks universaly.

Here ist a list of weapons that behave like so and could be useful even if you mainly use your FF attack:

As I said before (I believe it was in this thread, but I may misremember) something like a simple Dagger + modal would give you +10 melee deflection while it would not harm your FF attack's damage. Lover's Embrace could be a nice choice because not only does its modal benefit you but also its enchantment that gives you Frenzy would trigger on FF attacks. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Boeroer

[De_jesus]

Boom! Thank you so very much for the info and the link. Several hundred hours in this game, and I absolutely did not know that. 
 

I was actually looking at Lovers Embrace last night, but I'm a destitute aristocrat at the moment.

oh, an initial cursory read makes me want to put Scordeo's Edge and Sungrazer on my MC. Stacking recovery chance, especially, for mid - to - late game could be interesting. Plus, I do like beating enemies with a flail. Something about it makes me happy 

Edited April 5, 2023 by De_jesus

[De_jesus]

Discovered an interesting FF monk + Liberating Exhortation quirk:

1. If you cast Liberating Exhortation on your FF monk, you suspend hostile effects (FF is a hostile effect)
2. If you strike an enemy with FF, they receive the Enfeebled debuff (fortitude check)
3. HOWEVER, because FF is suspended, you do not get the damage buff in the damage calculation (regardless of the number of stacks) and you do not take Raw damage for the length of LE
4. You do however continue stacking Forbidden Fist (I got up to x8 so far with a 44 sec length)

What I need to discover is if I can take advantage of this somehow:
- Option 1: Suspend, stack FF with no damage, wait for LE to end, then attack with a huge buff to damage (Kamikaze style)  but risk dying horribly
- Option 2: Turn FF into an Enfeebled Debuff build and use it as form of CC (dash around with enhancements to stride, slap enemies with it, then have someone else drop a big CC, e.g. Blind, Paralyze, Terrify)

Note: I feel like I typed this up last night. I'm having a weird Deja Vu about this post

Edited April 19, 2023 by De_jesus

[Shai Hulud]

On 4/19/2023 at 12:22 PM, De_jesus said:

Discovered an interesting FF monk + Liberating Exhortation quirk:

1. If you cast Liberating Exhortation on your FF monk, you suspend hostile effects (FF is a hostile effect)
2. If you strike an enemy with FF, they receive the Enfeebled debuff (fortitude check)
3. HOWEVER, because FF is suspended, you do not get the damage buff in the damage calculation (regardless of the number of stacks) and you do not take Raw damage for the length of LE
4. You do however continue stacking Forbidden Fist (I got up to x8 so far with a 44 sec length)

What I need to discover is if I can take advantage of this somehow:
- Option 1: Suspend, stack FF with no damage, wait for LE to end, then attack with a huge buff to damage (Kamikaze style)  but risk dying horribly
- Option 2: Turn FF into an Enfeebled Debuff build and use it as form of CC (dash around with enhancements to stride, slap enemies with it, then have someone else drop a big CC, e.g. Blind, Paralyze, Terrify)

Note: I feel like I typed this up last night. I'm having a weird Deja Vu about this post

I think most enemies have too much health for the kamikaze strategy to be much value. You also lose a lot of damage along the way, the final big punch is likely not worth it. 

I mean forbidden curse damage is an additive bonus right, so first punch does +50%, second +100%, third +150%, and so on, so your nth punch does +50*n %

I.e. if you were to just punch someone 8 times without stacking the curse, you do regular damage plus 50*8 = 400% bonus damage, but spread out in 50% increments, and if you negate the curse seven times and then hit him on the eighth, you do regular damage for the first seven and then 400% bonus damage on the last punch.

I wish barbarian still worked like in POE1, ravager would be pretty badass enfeebling on carnage. 

Anyway you're probably better off just arranging your equipment and stats so your attack speed is the same or slightly longer than the curse duration. It's the same amount of damage but more predictable.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Shai Hulud