nimble melee cipher decisions and / or alternatives

[squirrels]

hey all!

context

I've played POE1 through a few times and loved it (scratched that Baldur's Gate itch that I can never shake). I tried Deadfire a while back but for some reason it didn't click at the time. I'm back, I've studied up on builds, I've lurked in forums, and I've gone on deep journeys into my heart...

and I've realized I kinda wanna change things up from my usual? maybe?

to keep this ramble from rambling more: rather than my usual backlines CC / DPS wizard or DPS ranged obsession, I kinda wanted to try something zippy and melee (kinda in the spirit of the knight enchanter with with fade step / spirit blade from Dragon Age Inqusition, if that's at all familiar - able to pop into backline enemies, hit and cause chaos, and then pop away).

I've seen a lot of lovely build concepts on the forum and was curious which of the following you all think might fit this concept best.

flexible restrictions:

* dual wield sabres / rapiers / daggers / stilettos / hatchets / etc for style WOULD be fun, lol

* cipher-ish bc I really like the setting specific flavor

* can kick off the fight, maybe?

builds I've seen and had tug at my heart, in no particular order:

* trickster / soulblade (seems the most apt in terms of melee but not sure if it has the teleporty potential I'm describing?)

* trickster (or assassin?) / beguiler (seems the most apt in terms of chaos focus, but same issue as above?)

* forbidden fist / beguiler (lol, I don't understand wounds at all so I worry about how micro managey this build is...)

builds I've seen and had tug at my heart but maybe because of my classic tendencies:

* troubador / psion (non-stop, flexible caster?! I'm drooling...  buuuuut... I'd remain jealous of the people stabbing folks in the faces / backs... probably)

* bloodmage / psion (similar to above but maybe can do some melee-ish nonsense?)

question(s)

which of these builds would fit the zippy-hit-the-priority-targets-cause-chaos theme best? and are there other builds you'd suggest that I'm overlooking?

which of these builds have you had the the most fun with, regardless of my silly thematic whims?

[Boeroer]

18 hours ago, squirrels said:

* trickster / soulblade (seems the most apt in terms of melee but not sure if it has the teleporty potential I'm describing?)

Use this with Sun & Moon and the small bashing shield Tuotilo's Palm and you'll have the speed of a dual wielder without actually using the weak bash (concentrate on Soul Annihilation), the defenses of a shield user in combination with the Trickster's Illusion spells, excellent movement ability (zipping around) with Rogue's "Escape", the high damage bonuses of a Rogue/Cipher in combination with one of the highest dmg weaapon abilities (Soul Annihilation).

It's a very well rounded setup which is a Jack of all (melee) Trades without actually being mediocre at any of those trades but pretty great.

It takes a few levels until the sturdyness happens and you also need some levels to gather the equipment (although weapon and shield come fairly early), but then it's very cool. Damage is great right from the start and so is movement. The sturdyness is very helpful because causing trouble behind enemy lines is a hard knock life.

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Forbidden Fist/Beguiler or Soulblade is also very nice - but since the wound mechanic of the Forbidden Fist is a bit harder to really grasp and needs to be build around I wouldn't recommend that over the Trickster/Soulblade for a first run.

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Troubadour/Psion is great - but yeah: there's no point in using a weapon. This is all about spell spamming.  It's lots of fun though imo. 

Psion in melee is generally not a good idea, even as Bloodmage/Psion because suffering damage stops the focus generation. This even includes the self dmage of blood sacrifice iirc.
If you want to go melee I would prefer another Cipher subclass.

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I think the most fitting multiclass for zippy-hit-the-priority-targets is your first suggestion, the Trickster/Soulblade.  

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Boeroer

[squirrels]

ty for the quick and thorough reply! also encouraging that my reading of the forum wasn't too off, lol. 

so many fun builds and people stoked about them, but sometimes hard to tell if all the advice is current.

quick follow up Qs: esp given the warm advice I've seen in the forum (and the fact that it was kept up to date, ty @MaxQuest!!!), I'll be using the community patch.

I'm sold on trickster / soulblade for my first run, but...

* does the damage from the bloodmage recovery skill interrupt psion even with the CP (since I thought that adjusted it to crit interrupt instead of hit)?

* would making trickster / soulblade dual wield (deflection focused to be sturdy?) for rp reasons be a huge kneecap (vs the minmax shield / flail you suggest) or viable?

* any reason trickster / soulblade over trickster / beguiler? I'm assuming too much redundancy in skills (tho diff pools, right?) or you're trying to meet my desire for more DPS?

[Boeroer]

11 hours ago, squirrels said:

* does the damage from the bloodmage recovery skill interrupt psion even with the CP (since I thought that adjusted it to crit interrupt instead of hit)?

No, with the CP the focus generation only stops when the Psion receives a critical hit (which is too good imo). Blood Sacrifice is an auto-hit, so the focus will still flow. 

11 hours ago, squirrels said:

* would making trickster / soulblade dual wield (deflection focused to be sturdy?) for rp reasons be a huge kneecap (vs the minmax shield / flail you suggest) or viable?

 Technically the setup of main weapon + the bashing shield Tuotilo's Palm IS a dual wielding setup. You can pick Two Weapon Style and that works. Full Attacks of the Rogue will use both weapons (main + shield bash) and all attacks (including primary ones such as Soul Annihilation) will have the reduced recovery time of a dual wielder. It is ALSO a weapon & shield setup. You can pick Weapon and Shield Style, too and it works. This, combined with the spamming of a primary attack (Soul Annihilation) makes this combo so good: you mostly attack with the main hand only and avoid the weaker bash attack - but you keep all the speed advantage and all the defensive advantage.

You can totally use another dual weapon set. But of course you will be a bit more squishy. Defenses have increasing returns. A few more points of deflection (and reflex) can make quite the difference. If you get grazed instead of hit the damage you receive is a lot lower. If you get hit instead of crit the penetration will be lower, too which might lead to the enemy underpenetrating which also means a lot less damage that you receive. At the same time you won't gain a lot of dps because your strongest attack is Soul Annihilation and that doesn't care for the offhand weapon. But for RP purposes it's totally fine to use something else of course.

Sun & Moon is very good for a Soulblade because it does two weapon attack rolls with each strike: one with the fiery flail head, the other with the frosty one. Soul Annihilation dumps all your current focus into raw damage (+bonuses from weapon quality, Sneak Attack, Deathblows etc.) as soon as it connects. If you connect with the first flail head you will dump all your focus. It's 0 then. The second flail head will connect afterwards als already generate focus again! So you will execute Soul Annihilation and still go out of it with new focus. This means that you can actually spam Soul Annihilation all the time if you wish. Afaik that's the only weapon that can do this - that's why I recommend this one specifically. Of course any other weapon works with this character, too. But this special feature of Sun & Moon is... well... special.  

11 hours ago, squirrels said:

* any reason trickster / soulblade over trickster / beguiler? I'm assuming too much redundancy in skills (tho diff pools, right?) or you're trying to meet my desire for more DPS?

  Yes - not much kills backline dudes faster than Soul Annihilation. Beguiler is better used as a caster of debuffs with the occasional weapon attack. Because Beguilers can gain a lot of focus from casting a large-AOE deception on a buch of enemies (Phantom Foes, Secret Horrors etc.) you usually want to start combat with them casting a bunch of Deception spells and not zip around towards the backline. The secret sauce of the Beguiler is that - officially - he only gains focus when casting deception spells on enemies that qualify for Sneak Attacks (aka have an affliction) - but the Deception spells already put an affliction on the targets and only after that the gme checks if there will be a focus refund for that. So a Beguiler doesn't need to apply afflictions with something else (melee attacks or whatever) - he can just cast his stuff right away and burst from focus gain (if he hits enough enemies). At the same time he doesn't do any extra melee damage. Soulblade - as I said - has the perfect melee tool for hunting backlines. Of course the combination Trickster/Beguiler makes a lot of sense thematically and RP-wise. But for the role you want to fill it's not the perfect combination.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Boeroer