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First of all, I know lots of people skip over this and Josh himself said the company should have concentrated on boarding as the only way to interact on ships.  Even the mighty Sid Meier had trouble making ship-to-ship combat good.

So with that in mind,  let's just try to make the ship game in Deadfire slightly better. Just a smidge. 

Here... I made this spreadsheet....

That's where I'd like your help. I was wondering, if you could tweak the ship/cannon numbers ...

What would you do?

Preferably, I'd like to be able to compete with any vessel.

As it stands, a broadside from a large vessel with double-bronzers will completely wipe you out. Perhaps chance to be hit should be lower for the little guys?

Look at all those guns! How many do players actually use? Two or three?

 

SHIP                
Name GUID Sail Health Hull Health Be Hit Chance Turns to Turn Turns to Jibe Crew Cost
Dyrwoodan Ship   20 50 55 1 1 5  
Voyager   25 60 55 1 1 5 20000
Dhow   40 65 60 2 2 7 35000
Galleon   40 100 60 2 3 8 100000
Junk   60 70 70 2 3 9 120000
                 
                 
CANNON                
Name GUID Damage Range Reload Cost      
Dyrwoodan   4 to 7 150-400m 3 1000      
Aedyran Channel   4 to 7 350-600m 4 1125      
Iron Thunderer   6 to 9 200-500m 4 1200      
Haerferic's   8 to 11 200-600m 4 1500      
Imperial Long   6 to 9 300-600m 6 1650      
Royal Bronze   8 to 11 150-400m 5 1800      
Vailian Hullbreaker   10 to 13 0-250m 4 1900      
Double Bronzer   12 to 15 250-350m 8 2100      
Sub Gun   8 to 11 150-400m 5 1800      

 

I think a lot of people hated this system so much that the developers allowed people to "get it over with as soon as possible". What do you think?

 

Edited by Svartypops
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I've been thinking about changing the stats on various ship items, if only so there's more difference between them. The extra items they put in with a free DLC have the exact same stats as other items, eg Ymyran helm and Lurker helm. What's the point of that?!

I experimented a bit with chance to be hit (or "hittability" as the code calls it) and if it's low enough the enemy doesn't even bother firing on you and just closes to board. That might be why it's not a visible stat and no equipment changes it? Sounds hard to balance

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The ship combat was something I tried to get into on my first playthrough but fell off of after a while of every single engagement seeming to take a really really long time to play out. I don't know if it is just not explained very well, or that I missed something in the explantion of the mechanics. But it got frustrating to the point that most of the game I took long routes to avoid enemy ships, or would closed to board right away.

Which is a real shame as captaining a ship battle in the age of sail is a really neat idea!

You are missing the flame thrower ship weapons from your list: 

                 
CANNON                
Name GUID Damage Range Reload Cost      
Magranite Firethrower 49e185d8-48e8-4d63-a358-3f50e1971b77 6 to 9 0-75m 2 3000      
Wyrmtongue 2f82b41e-63dd-43d1-9475-c37af23f96cb 6 to 9 0-400m 5 3000      

 

Magran Firethrower was added with the ship focused DLC "Scalawags Pack". The data of which is in the "laxc_exported" folder in the "laxc_ships.gamedatabundle" file (Under the name "Aedyran Firethower"). From what little I played with these the short range, was a neat idea, but always lead to the enemy ship closing to board before or just after I had fired them. The other weird thing, description for the Wyrmtongue mentions there being a chance of starting a fire on the enemy deck/rigging/crew. Which ever happened when I hit with them, so either a very low chance or just a bit of confusing fluff. I'm tempted to assume it to be the latter as the Magran Firethrower has no mention of this.

Also really disappointed that there is no ship battle with a kraken (or other beat of Galawain), but I can imagine that would have been strange to implement in to the ship to ship interface. So probably for the best

Edited by Kvellen
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1 hour ago, house2fly said:

I've been thinking about changing the stats on various ship items, if only so there's more difference between them. The extra items they put in with a free DLC have the exact same stats as other items, eg Ymyran helm and Lurker helm. What's the point of that?!

I experimented a bit with chance to be hit (or "hittability" as the code calls it) and if it's low enough the enemy doesn't even bother firing on you and just closes to board. That might be why it's not a visible stat and no equipment changes it? Sounds hard to balance

I just spent some time making some changes to upgrades (on the right, below).

 

HULL       Hull                  
Name GUID Travel Speed Combat Speed Health Cost                
Bird****   -5%               PROPOSED CHANGES      
Aedyran (Treated) 14c0a64a-ed0e-4992-a398-2575c994066e     5 1000         2 2 2  
Warship (Reinforced) a14f842b-9d50-4e2f-85c5-559dc2ce007b -2% -2% 15 3500         4 4 4  
Bardatto   5%   5 5000         6 6 6  
Improved Warship (Reinforced_Improved) "5b572b32-d1b0-45fc-aec1-1beadbdc522c"     15 7500         7 7 7  
Merchant's         9000         10 10 0  
Red Dream     -10% 40 16000         -10 -10 80  
Boneframe   5% 5%   25000         10 10 10  
Blackwood   5% 15% 15 64000         15 15 15  
Infested                          
                           
                           
SAILS       Sail                  
Name GUID Travel Speed Combat Speed Health Cost                
Linen                          
Bird****   -5                      
Berath   5 5 2 500         2 2 2  
Cottonweave   5 5 -2 1000         3 3 3  
Vithrack       5 1250         5 5 5  
Trollstitch   5   10 2250         6 6 6  
Valera   5 5 5 4500         7 7 7  
Palm   20 20 -7 8500         8 8 8  
Gulskin     -5 30 9000         9 9 9  
Stormwind   15 15   12500         10 10 10  
Mageweave   5 5 5 18000         12 12 12  
Dragonwing   10 10 15 40500         15 15 15  
Ragged                          
                           
HELM (wheel)                        
Name GUID Travel Speed Combat Speed Health Cost                
Standard                          
Ymyran Steel     5   14000         3     6000
Lurker     5   14000                
                           
                           
LANTERN                          
Name GUID Travel Speed Combat Speed Health Cost                
Standard                          
Scavenger's   5     4000                
Arcane   10     8000         7     6000
Blight   10     8000                
                           
                           
ANCHOR                          
Name GUID Travel Speed Combat Speed Health Cost                
Standard                          
Ymyran Steel   5 5   18000         3 3   6000
Living Steel   5 5   18000

 

As you can see, I've tried to make it so that the player isn't as confused about what's better for them. This simple incremental system has similar maximum values, but gives the player a different dilemma over what to buy - they're unlikely to buy all of them - so money will probably be a deciding factor in the early game. 

 

 

@KvellenThanks a lot for that info, I've put it in my spreadsheet. 😄

I think smaller ships should really get a huge advantage at very short range combat, but atm they get annihilated by big ships because they roll the dice so many times (lots of guns). I'm not sure how smart the AI is, but if they're closing to melee, that's a shame because it could have been quite an interesting situation.

Having said this, I think ships full of guns were the answer to pirates in real life, too!

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21 hours ago, Kvellen said:

The ship combat was something I tried to get into on my first playthrough but fell off of after a while of every single engagement seeming to take a really really long time to play out. I don't know if it is just not explained very well, or that I missed something in the explantion of the mechanics.

Funnily enough, I was watching "Secrets of the Spanish Armada" (drain the oceans) and it reminded me of what I'd been doing in Deadfire! So they did SOMETHING right!

What they said in the documentary was that Spanish vessels returning from South America were full of gold plundered from the Incas/Aztecs.

The English wanted a slice of the pie and commissioned Privateers like Drake to ... well they were pirates. 

The Spanish didn't like that so they sent the Armada to invade England with soldiers and hence stop the piracy by conquering the nation.

The English couldn't compete with the Spanish in traditional BOARDING and melee tactics.

Instead of boarding, the English, who had adapted their tactics to those of the pirates, had packed their ships with as many cannons as possible, and didn't have any troops on them.

Wake up, here's the interesting bit!

So the English did the same as I was doing in the game (sort of) ...

Fire a broadside, come about (AKA jibe, AKA "Do a 180")  and fire a broadside from the other side. 

Then the English would flee to reload. I don't do that in the game - I use cannons that reload about the same amount of time it takes to turn the ship.

-So perhaps each ship type should have a different turn speed, and that turn speed should synchronise with different reload times of various cannons?

 

 

With 600 as max range, perhaps the nimble ships should be hanging out at 400-600 range to avoid those double-bronzers, and damage outside of the cannon's range values should be zero?

Edited by Svartypops
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I have a suspicion that the ship game should take a LOT longer to complete. Repairing gives me that idea - when the AI moves cannoneers to repairing, it's pretty obvious that cannons aren't supposed to be quite so powerful. 

I think the cannons need nerfs to both range and damage, small vessels need to be much faster with much lower hittability (tbh the speed should factor into that equation - I don't know whether it does or not). 

These changes would make The Ship Game much slower.

I don't know that the AI would even play smart with such changes?

Edited by Svartypops
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