Monk: how use Turning Wheel skill?

[claudius]

This skill says it adds 5% burning per wound.  Does it add a lash to melee/missile attacks?  Or does it modify already existing fire attacks from lashes or enchantments?

I'm asking in part because I assumed it added a lash but looking at my combat log I just punched (as level 6 monk) either an Animat or a Rain elemental for 16 bludgeon damage (and maybe I missed it) but I didn't see any fire damage even hovering tooltip over the 16 number.

Thanks and I appreciate these basic questions.  I tried searching a little but not find something so basic easily.

Edited August 22, 2020 by claudius

[Boeroer]

It adds a burning lash to all your weapon attacks (fists also count as weapons). The lash is 5% per wound you carry. That means it's 0% (no wounds) to 50% (10 wounds). 

Most likely the reason you don't see it on the animat is the mechanic of lashes:

Lashes are multiplicative dmg bonuses which are based on your weapon damage roll (which is great) but there is a hurdle: any (non-raw) lash has to overcome the respective armor's damage reduction - or DR - of the target separately. Here it's the burn DR of the animat. Not the whole DR though but only 25% (or 1/4th). Again: all lashes (except raw) must overcome 1/4 of the enemy's DR.

Animats usually have very high DR.

If you roll 20 crush dmg to the animat and you have 5 wounds: the burning lash of Turning Wheel would be 25% (5*5%) of 20 which is 5 burn damage. That 5 burn damage has to overcome 1/4th of the animat's burn DR. If the animat's burn DR is 20 or higher...

Unlike direct damage which has a MIN value (some damage always gets through even if DR is higher than the dmg roll) lashes work not that way: they can get completely eliminated by DR. So if 1/4th of the animat's burn DR is roughly about the same as the burn damage you would cause with your lash... it will get eaten up completely - gone. 

In the example above: if the burn DR of the ainmat is 20 or higher you get nothing from the lash. This is less likely to happen with Lightning Strikes (same mechanics) because animats are usually more vulnerable to shock damage (have low shock DR). 

Of course this is even more likely to happen if you have less wounds (smaller lash) and less likely if you have more wounds (lash is bigger). Also the direct crush damage you do can help: if you deal more crush damage then the lash dmg is higher (because it's based on the weapon dmg roll). The higher the dmg you roll with the weapon the easier it is for the lash to be higher than enemies' 1/4DR. You can also pick Scion of Flame (talent): it gives your Turning Wheel lash a 25% bonus. Meaning it would rise from 5% per wound to 6.25% per wound. So at 10 wounds instead of a 50% lash you would have a 75% one - which is very good. 

BUT! There's also a small glitch that sometimes happens when you activate Turning Wheel during a session: it doesn't really apply. Best is to save with Turning Wheel active and then reload. That should fix it. Same with Blood Testament gloves (2% raw dmg lash per wound) by the way. They are very good but suffer from the same occasional glitch.

To;dr: most likely your lash was too small for the animat's high burn DR. To be safe try another target and save/reload with Turning Wheel activated. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Boeroer

[claudius]

Thanks so much.  I have fought another battle against some kith and looks like the burning lash is now working.  And I could understand from your explanation how the DR of Animat could block all of the lash.

I'll keep an eye out for that bug with Turning Wheel.  I usually use Quicksave (and they overwrite each other) aside from when I either level up or I go to a different area (example go from Defiance Bay to Stronghold or Dyrford etc)...  So should I maybe save more often (separate named saves?) in case I don't notice the lash is corrupt and I have to go back to the last level up?  Or would simply quick saving, then exiting the game, then returning to (quicksaved) game fix a problem of the bug with Turning Wheel lash?

[Boeroer]

It's not that the savegame is corrupt or something. It just seems that sometimes the game doesn't get the activation of Turning Wheel right and the save/reload cycle just helps to somehow set the game object state correctly. No idea how or why honestly. 

[Abel]

In my case, turning wheel is deactivated anytime a game is loaded. This game is frustrating in many ways. I have only found three ways to solve this:

1- Do not take turning wheel. This is true for other talents/abilities in the game btw, since, honestly, it is bugged as hell. For example, i have found that the Comfort cloak's 'amenity' stacks with everything, but does not actually stack with armor proofing specifically (like Hirbel's skin's pierce proofing). Which  is weird to me. Or that Two-handed style applies 50% of the time when you select it on level up screens. On the bright side, i use IEMod. Using mods is risky. But i seem to remember the game had problems like those even when i didn't use it. Yes, i backed it, so it is not my first try.

2- Retrain everytime you reload a save. Not particularly fond of this one? Me neither.

3- The best to me: Use IEMod (works on the latest game version). Allow cheat/console codes (read the mod readme for how to). Then, open the game console with 'ù' or anything that is there on your keyboard (mine is AZERTY, french). When done, enter this without quotes:

First: "RemoveTalent Companion_Zahua(Clone)_X turningwheel". This will remove the broken ability so that you don't have duplicates on your character sheet. Then add:

"AddAbility Companion_Zahua(Clone)_X turningwheel". This will give it back.

Where X is the slot Zahua occupies in your roster. The one whose portrait is next to your PC's is 1, the one at the end is 5. In my case, it was 4 this time.

Note, too, that you can copy/paste what i wrote above in the console. Write it somewhere and don't bother. Alternatively, you can use the keyboard arrows to skim through previously entered console commands. This makes entering the command at every reload no more than a slight bother.

If you don't have this problem, tell me. I am curious whether it is just me, but considering that i found this thread, i chose to post this, in case other people have problems.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Abel

[Boeroer]

I didn't have those kind of problems. Sometimes Turning Wheel not activating, but not frequently. Quicksave/-reload fixed it.

I put a lot of hours into playing Monks.  

[Abel]

Yeah, that's weird, because i certainly do have to remove/ re add the ability every time. Anytime i forget to do so, next fight is without burn damage for my Zahua. Is there a conflict of sorts with equipement or other abilities i took? I don't know. But all i can see is either a conflict, or a IEMod + UPMod problem. I suspect you use both yourself and you would have noticed it i guess, so, the explanation is probably elsewhere. I wish i could narrow down the problem, because it remains annoying, mostly when i forget to readd the ability after reload.

But the truth of the matter is: it is not only turning wheel. Many things are bugged when it comes to abilities, talents, equipement, stacking rules, and so on. (Right now, i am very annoyed by 'Scion of flame' and other talents like this one. The fact that it works at random, or not at all, especially with priest spells like shining beacon... That's fire damage damn, stop making knots in my head when your talent states '+20% to fire damage' and it doesn't work 50% of the time you do fire damage, for seemingly random/buggy reasons. I wish i could find reliable answers for this problem, too).

To be very frank, after spending so much time playing 'Divinity Original Sin' and 'Pathfinder: Kingmaker' (1300 hours with this one so far), both being very complex games too, coming back playing Pillars after 7 years was somewhat of a shock. I wasn't used to so many bugs anymore. I always defended Obs when people told 'Alpha Protocol' is super buggy or 'New Vegas is a mess', because this wasn't their fault, the publishers were 95% responsible for this. But i can't totally deny that in my book, Obsidian is still somewhat King in Bugland.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Abel

[Boeroer]

I also didn't experience those bugs with Scion of Flame. I mean there are still some, but hardly noticable most of times. For example the Blood Testament Gloves have the same occasional quick as Turning Wheel. Unequip/re-equip will help. That's not great, but not a big hassle like removing/adding abilities every time, jeez - that's super annoying. 

I don't use any mods with PoE though. 

[Abel]

The problem with scion of flame is that i am never sure if it works. I play a priest, melee priest, jack of all trades priest. So, i like casting a buff, an aggro and then melee. Aggro can be Shining beacon. But when i look at the damage on the spell tooltip, the numbers are the same whether i have scion of flame or not. When i cast the spell, i see no mention of bonus damage in the logs either. On the other hand, i can see bonus damage pretty clearly when they come from other sources. I read quite a few of your posts too, and the one where you explained why curoc's brand doesn't benefit from scion of flame and why bittercut does benefit from the corrode perk... was too much. I laughed, but bitterly. I did plan to use curoc's brand when switching to distance, i found the idea pretty fun and i find fire pretty fitting for Eothas, the god of light. My builds are based on themes more than min maxing. But better use a mere war bow than noticing how scion of flame doesn't work with my wand every time i use it ^^. I am no good when it comes to handling certain types of frustration ^^'.

 

EDIT: Ok, so since you said you don't use mods, this prompted me to test more with IEMod and try to narrow down the turning wheel problem again. And actually, i found it. It is indeed, one particular option of IEMod that messes up turning wheel. I should have thought about it earlier, that was stupid of me. So, thanks a lot for your answers, that helped.

So, again, in case this proves useful to someone else down the line, i will share.

i have played for many hours with 'Remove combat-only restrictions' with no problem whatsoever, and so i even forgot about it entirely. But if this option is ticked, it will cause problems with turning wheel specifically, for reasons that are way beyond me. Better deactivate it if you use a monk, once you have done your tests or whatever.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Abel

[Boeroer]

On 5/13/2023 at 1:51 AM, Abel said:

The problem with scion of flame is that i am never sure if it works. I play a priest, melee priest, jack of all trades priest. So, i like casting a buff, an aggro and then melee. Aggro can be Shining beacon. But when i look at the damage on the spell tooltip, the numbers are the same whether i have scion of flame or not.

Ah, I see. Unfortunately Damage over Time spells (apply once, does ticks of small damage afterwards without additional hit rolls) like Shining Beacon don't profit from Scion of Flame and its siblings (see Spirit of Decay with DoT corrosion spells for example). 

In all other cases of direct fire damage* it will work, even with weapons (see the Firebrand summoned great sword) and non-spell abilities (see Flames of Devotion).

It also works with lashes like Turning Wheel and as I said Flames of Devotion - also with the Wildstrike Burn of Druids or generally with all burning lashes on a weapon. It will raise the lash damage by 20%. So if the lash was doing 25% additional dmg. Scion of Flame would increase that from 25% to (0.25*1.2=0.3) 30% lash. 

And yes, that sucks and you couldn't know that. It's one of the little oversights that never got fixed and that you can only know about if you skim this forum, directly ask here or do extensive testing yourself. So it can be frustrating. 

*See Divine Mark and also Storm of Holy Fire: this one does multiple hit rolls which all do direct burn damage, it's not a DoT spell like Shining Beacon that only hits once and then ticks away like a poison. Both will work with Scion of Flame.

---

Good finding with the mod option/Turning Wheel. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Boeroer

[Abel]

Yes, i did a lot a testing, a lot of reading, and so, i knew about the Damage over time problem (and other problems). Actually, this is one of the reason i installed UPMod on top of IEMod: because it was meant to bring a tentative solution for this oversight. But the thing is: it is Obsidian, and considering that the untold rule 'yeah, but doesn't work with DoT' would be enough to wrap one's head around this mess would be too simple... It's being unrealistically hopeful.

There is a priest spell that does direct fire damage. Searing seal. The damage multiplier will seemingly always be 1. Scion of flame doesn't work, and not even the might attribute seems to work with this one. It is not DoT, it is one time damage, and i see no reason whatsoever as to why it is like this. There is no proper logic behind, and no explanation, no general rule that could make me feel reassured that it works as intended. There is something unconfortable when you never know if something is by design or not, and you end up testing eveything to make sure that it works as you think it is meant to, because you can't trust the game to work as it should.

I mean, there are no rules, no explanation, no logic. It is plain random, and i can't help but feel like 90% of such inconsistencies in Pillars or Eternity are not by design (it would be mentionned in rules if it was by design, and these rules would exist in the first place). It may not even be an oversight... At some point, i started to feel like Obsidian simply didn't know how to solve their mess without breaking something else in the process. I have a friend, programmer, who has been working on Neverwinter Nights 2 modding and servers since forever, and he is baffled neverendlessly by the massive mess that is the code for this game. He explained me some problems with it, and yeah... King in Bugland. I wouldn't be surprised if game design ended up going further than expected when the base systems were made for Pillars, or something. Like the array for stacking rules becoming too small to account for everything or something. I am no programmer. Maybe if i was, i would have better cues on how to go about things.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Abel