Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0

[Shai Hulud]

5 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Okay, for Bonded Fury, an alternative idea would be to :

- Set it back to 2 Bonds with no cooldown
- Set the Bond regen mechanism as lasting till the end of battle. So once you cast it once, you won't have to think a lot about whether casting it again will result in a big Bond gain, marginal gain or loss

I would consider being a bit more generous with other parameters (inspirations set to last 45s instead of 30s, 15% Bond gain when dealing damages) to compensate for the upfront cost. Better than 1 Bond cost in my book to avoid a "semi immunity" to Afflictions.

Basically it would be "2 abilities for 1 Point", an active to reasonably buff your pet and a passive to regen bond. Both would fill balanced as individual abilities, so it is a bit generous to get both for 1 point, but you still have the constraint of casting it once to get the passive effect.

 

I would aslo set back Healing Chain to 2 Zeal with no Cooldown, with a minor buff to 12 health per tick.

I had the concern that even at 2 Zeals it could be too strong in favorable conditions (targetting only 2 narrow targets) granted the potential infinite Zeal of SC Paladin, but this issue was solved by Divine retribution rework. The recent Jump range reduction was also made to allow easier focusing.

The ability isn't easy to use, but giving 300 base health to 2 targets for 2 Zeals feel quite good to me.

 

This would completely eliminate Cooldowns, except for Spiritshift and Holy Radiance since I have no good alternative for them (and Cooldown is a strict improvement from once per encounter anyway).

 

Since I'm buffing Bonded Fury to 45s, I plan to do the same with the sorta similar Inspired Discipline. It feels sometimes hard to optimize since Tier 1 inspirations feel a bit redundant with some Fighter self buff or Party buff. 

I guess this sounds preferable to current implementation? Assuming I can still actually keep up bonded fury. The bond regen is the main thing bit it does make the pet a bit harder to kill, and energized helps him do a little damage and potentially interrupt things at hen combined with shadowed hunters. Also liked the risk reward of on hit resource return. 

Hmm. Can you make a passive that gives back bond at some rate when you hit zero? Idk if this is possible.

Then bonded fury costs 1 bond, gives back resources like now (bump proc rate slightly, maybe 10 to 15?), no cooldown. 

To me this seems quite clean. The only potential issue is you could run out of bond if not paying attention, though this happens with a lot of classes. Also somewhat negated by potions of enlightenment. 

Another possibility is bonded fury costs 1 bond no cooldown returns 15% on graze or whatever, AND has a until battle ends bond return of like 1 per 60 seconds (or 30), to mitigate the issue of running out of bond.

I like the proposed healing chain

 

[Elric Galad]

4 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

I guess this sounds preferable to current implementation? Assuming I can still actually keep up bonded fury. The bond regen is the main thing bit it does make the pet a bit harder to kill, and energized helps him do a little damage and potentially interrupt things at hen combined with shadowed hunters. Also liked the risk reward of on hit resource return. 

Hmm. Can you make a passive that gives back bond at some rate when you hit zero? Idk if this is possible.

I don't understand your concern about 0 bond, but maybe I expressed it confusingly.

My proposal for bonded fury (second thought taken into account) :

- 2 Bonds, no cooldown, 0.5s/0s cast/rec
- Energized and all tier 2 inspirations for 30s (not 45s or it would compare too well to some other active)
- 15% chance of bond on Graze/Hit/Crit until the end of encounter. This effect won't require any refresh. You will just have to refresh the Inspirations.

So once Bonded has been cast once, there won't be any issue about zero bond anymore. Your pet will always get %15 Bond chance, and when you hit zero, you will still have as much chance to generate bond.

Granted you may have to make some choice to maintain Bonded Fury all the time, but you will generate more bonds than currently (chance 10% to 15%, and 100% uptime for the bon regen). So in a way it is more versatile (it would be super easy to have 100% Hardy Companion uptime).

In the rare case you hit 0 Bond without having cast Bonded Fury even once, well... you still have Empower point... or Potion of Enlightenment... or just you shouldn't have made this mistake anyway.

4 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Then bonded fury costs 1 bond, gives back resources like now (bump proc rate slightly, maybe 10 to 15?), no cooldown. 

To me this seems quite clean. The only potential issue is you could run out of bond if not paying attention, though this happens with a lot of classes. Also somewhat negated by potions of enlightenment. 

Another possibility is bonded fury costs 1 bond no cooldown returns 15% on graze or whatever, AND has a until battle ends bond return of like 1 per 60 seconds (or 30), to mitigate the issue of running out of bond.

Well, I've made clear why I don't want 1 bond cost for Bonded Fury.

4 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

I like the proposed healing chain

 

Nice  

[Shai Hulud]

14 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I don't understand your concern about 0 bond, but maybe I expressed it confusingly.

Well my counterproposal was because you don't seem to like bonded fury costing 1 bond. I think you mentioned previously this was because you could run out or something and then the ability can't be used for bond regeneration. 

14 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

My proposal for bonded fury (second thought taken into account) :

- 2 Bonds, no cooldown, 0.5s/0s cast/rec
- Energized and all tier 2 inspirations for 30s (not 45s or it would compare too well to some other active)
- 15% chance of bond on Graze/Hit/Crit until the end of encounter. This effect won't require any refresh. You will just have to refresh the Inspirations.

So once Bonded has been cast once, there won't be any issue about zero bond anymore. Your pet will always get %15 Bond chance, and when you hit zero, you will still have as much chance to generate bond.

Still for people who actually want to use the ability for the buffs this seems like a move in the wrong direction. If anything was overpowered about Bonded Fury it was the resource regen aspect, not the pet buffs. This makes the pet buffs less desirable compared to spamming twinned arrows or whatever.

14 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Granted you may have to make some choice to maintain Bonded Fury all the time, but you will generate more bonds than currently (chance 10% to 15%, and 100% uptime for the bon regen). So in a way it is more versatile (it would be super easy to have 100% Hardy Companion uptime).

In the rare case you hit 0 Bond without having cast Bonded Fury even once, well... you still have Empower point... or Potion of Enlightenment... or just you shouldn't have made this mistake anyway.

Right I don't see why it hitting 0 is an issue, maybe I misunderstood you in a previous post.

14 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Well, I've made clear why I don't want 1 bond cost for Bonded Fury.

Hmm...not to me 

Not trying to be difficult I just don't get it why 2 bond buffs infinite bond regen is better than 1 bond buffs bond regen per 30s? I mean I get you'd prefer that if you don't want to actually use Bonded Fury for the buffs, because you can cast once and get bond regeneration throughout the fight, but...this is almost making the ability superfluous after the initial cast. There really isn't much use case for occasional recast of tier 2 pet inspirations compared to being able to sustain them. Not at 2 bond. And I realize it initially cost 3 which was just absurd. For 3 bond it better give me AND the pet tier 2 inspirations. And at 2 bond it is still too much just for pet inspirations unless you increase the durations. 45s is a reasonable compromise between 2 bond 30s and 1 bond 30s. You say "not 45s or it would compare too well to some other active". Not sure what you mean. Which actives, and why is the comparison problematic?

The way I'm looking at it is Bonded Fury looks very weak (after initial cast) compared to say Shadowed Hunters + Heal Companion, so if I can't keep up Bonded Fury because its cost has doubled then I'll use more powerful abilities. 

[Elric Galad]

11 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Well my counterproposal was because you don't seem to like bonded fury costing 1 bond. I think you mentioned previously this was because you could run out or something and then the ability can't be used for bond regeneration. 

I didn't like Bonded Fury costing Bond because you could run out of bond, but setting the bond regen to infinite duration solves this.

I didn't like Bonded Fry costing 1 Bond (even with a duration balanced around it) because you could use it to purge afflictions too efficiently.

11 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Still for people who actually want to use the ability for the buffs this seems like a move in the wrong direction. If anything was overpowered about Bonded Fury it was the resource regen aspect, not the pet buffs.

To be fair, the ideal solution would be an actual passive with 15% Bond on Graze/Hit/Crit. This one won't be particularly overpowered compared to other SC Passives. As part of an active effect, it's weird to evaluate because active aren't supposed to give back ressource, so I have no ability to compare. At best, some have a refund.

So the 15% Bond on Graze/Hit/Crit part can be seen as a "class buff" to SC Ranger more than a buff to Bonded Fury. I only use Bonded Fury as a "host" for this effect cause it is more or less pickable by any build.

11 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

This makes the pet buffs less desirable compared to spamming twinned arrows or whatever.

The point is to make the buffing (not bond regen) part of Bonded Fury "exactly as desirable" compared to the other active, since it is the part that would cost Bond in the long term in this design. Or more accurately to make it desirable in the right situation and less desirable in the wrong situation (as for all active abilities).

Of course, the "right values" have to be found to accomplish this objective.

11 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Not trying to be difficult I just don't get it why 2 bond buffs infinite bond regen is better than 1 bond buffs bond regen per 30s?

To avoid complex calculation about whether it cost bond, allow marginal or big bond gain.

11 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

I mean I get you'd prefer that if you don't want to actually use Bonded Fury for the buffs, because you can cast once and get bond regeneration throughout the fight, but...this is almost making the ability superfluous after the initial cast.

As I said, the point is to make the pure buff part balanced for 2 bonds which leads to following point...

11 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

There really isn't much use case for occasional recast of tier 2 pet inspirations compared to being able to sustain them.

You don't like buff that aren't active all the time. I do think it is important for defensive buffs though, since you don't want your defense to sometimes drop. But Bonded Fury is more all around than defensive buff. Shadowed Hunters and Hardy Companion are there to play the role of defensive buffs for the pet.

More Offensive buff can be active "as much as they can" and still be relevant to that extant. Basically an offensive buff active 75% of time is 75% of the efficiency of the same buff active 100% of the time.

11 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Not at 2 bond. And I realize it initially cost 3 which was just absurd. For 3 bond it better give me AND the pet tier 2 inspirations. And at 2 bond it is still too much just for pet inspirations unless you increase the durations. 45s is a reasonable compromise between 2 bond 30s and 1 bond 30s. You say "not 45s or it would compare too well to some other active". Not sure what you mean. Which actives, and why is the comparison problematic?

This is actually the question I am still unsure about : we can still discuss about the level of power (mostly tied to duration) of the active buff part of bonded fury.

Bonded Fury level of power is not that easy to compare to self buff from other classes because :
- It is about the pet which only has a fraction of power of a character. If pet is "half a character" in terme of power, it needs to have "twice the effect" in term of power. But that factor is up to debate.
- It comes in the form of a multiple Inspiration buff, which sometimes feel redundant (a problem shared with Inspired Discipline). Hardy Companion and Shadowed Hunters make a third of the ability not that relevant (Intuitive / Energized do synergize though). Resolve and Acute are not that great for a pet (still useful and needed to promote pet active  ). Since 2.5 it is a bit compensated by the uniqueness of Energized, but it might not be ideal.

I'm still thinking about this point, the closer comparison I can find is Inspired Discipline, but it isn't that intuitive because of the 2 issues above.

11 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

The way I'm looking at it is Bonded Fury looks very weak (after initial cast) compared to say Shadowed Hunters + Heal Companion, so if I can't keep up Bonded Fury because its cost has doubled then I'll use more powerful abilities. 

I do think Shadowed Hunters (because it provides healing for pet and offense for ranger) and Heal Companion (because healing) are inherently better suited for your playstyle (pet tank, ranger spank). So they will have natural priority over Bonded Fury. Which doesn't discard the question about when you'll want to cast Bonded Fury.

One need to feel "Bonded Fury buffing part" good enough for 2 Bonds, even if not necessarily no brainer to cast.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

Ok, go for Inspired Discipline 45s duration. The ability feels sometimes annoying to build around so it kind of derserve of reward. Great duration would be. 

 

Ok for Bonded fury buff 45s (I'm still considering the infinite duration bond regen as a bonus passive for SC Ranger and I'm leaving it out of the cost / duration equation). 

I think this duration would compare well to Shadowed hunters. Bonded fury as a twice more powerful effect in my book, but only to the pet which is vaguely 1/3 of SC Ranger power. 1/3 x 2 = 2/3 the effect for 2/3 cost feels eventually right. 

 

I felt it could have compare too well to some other SC only buffs, such as Enduring Shadow or Hastening Exho upgrade, but the first has a lots of utility (and +25 deflection / Swift for character is really strong) and the later can target anybody else than Pal. 

Anyway SC locked abilities can slightly be over the top. 

[Shai Hulud]

22 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Ok, go for Inspired Discipline 45s duration. The ability feels sometimes annoying to build around so it kind of derserve of reward. Great duration would be. 

 

Ok for Bonded fury buff 45s (I'm still considering the infinite duration bond regen as a bonus passive for SC Ranger and I'm leaving it out of the cost / duration equation). 

I think this duration would compare well to Shadowed hunters. Bonded fury as a twice more powerful effect in my book, but only to the pet which is vaguely 1/3 of SC Ranger power. 1/3 x 2 = 2/3 the effect for 2/3 cost feels eventually right. 

 

I felt it could have compare too well to some other SC only buffs, such as Enduring Shadow or Hastening Exho upgrade, but the first has a lots of utility (and +25 deflection / Swift for character is really strong) and the later can target anybody else than Pal. 

Anyway SC locked abilities can slightly be over the top. 

All sounds good Elric. The pet's value is indeed hard to quantify, because in my builds at least he typically does at most 1/10 of the damage of my character but he's often taking 3 or 4 times as much damage (infinitely more in some one on one fights). But even buffed like crazy the pet is about the same as one animated weapon, so I don't think the pet has been made too powerful.

Also I think it's fine if SC abilities are really strong, since you give up a lot by not multiclassing. Like ranger not multiclassing to a devoted for instance gives up +2pen, 15% hit to crit,+20 accuracy, confident aim, unbending. Not MC to cipher gives up +30 to +35 accuracy, +20% damage from soul whip, tons of CC and damage spells, etc. So to me it is fine if Inspired Disciple or Shadowed Hunters are really good. 

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

Not MC to cipher gives up +30 to +35 accuracy, +20% damage from soul whip, tons of CC and damage spells, etc. So to me it is fine if Inspired Disciple or Shadowed Hunters are really good. 

This one is debatable. A ranger can grab +20 Accuracy (non stacking with Borrowed Instinct) through Hunter's Claw line. Pros and Cons, the best part is that when it's done it's done on Hunter's Claw side. For sure it's really inconvenient for ranged ranger, but not having to rely on hitting / refreshing / Lasting debuff is huge, especially vs Megabosses. Not sure where from the remaining +10/+15 comes from. I can think of tactical meld for +5 from Aware, +10 acc vs Will (quite conditional, esp when considering weapon attacks). 

Not to say Seer isn't great. As I always say, a Cipher MC adds tremendous utility with just a couple of points spent on Cipher side (Hammering Thought, Draining/Biting Whip, Ancestor's Memory, Pain Block, Disintigrate, Whispers of Treasons, built-in +20% damages, et voilà !) 

 

I'm always reluctant to overbuff stuff. 

But as stated, my main concern was about other SC Buffs.

 

BPM Shadowed Hunters vs BPM Enduring Shadows is an interesting comparison.

Intuitive                                                    vs Swift                                                       => Quite similar

12hp/3s + -50% hostile effect duration vs +25 Deflection                                       => Quite similar (+25 Deflection is huge)

Tier 4 + Tier 8 ability point                     vs super scarce Tier 9 ability point          => Quite similar

Affect self + pet vs Affect pet only (but arguably both count as 1 party slot)       => Quite similar

Both invisible (better synergies with Rogue class)

No Teleport                                              vs Teleport

45s for 3 Bonds (with some flexibility to get Intuitive after the invisbibility)                     

                                                                  vs 20s for 2 Guiles (but the later has a native Tier 4 PL, so duration at PL 9 is 25s).

                               => I would say the last 3 items have a comparable level of power when summed up. Invisibility is more useful per cast than based on duration so better to have it for 2 ressources than for 3 ressources. 
 

So Bonded Fury comparing well to Shadowed Hunters should be enough to establish that it is roughly OK as a SC buff.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Shai Hulud]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

This one is debatable. A ranger can grab +20 Accuracy (non stacking with Borrowed Instinct) through Hunter's Claw line. Pros and Cons, the best part is that when it's done it's done on Hunter's Claw side. For sure it's really inconvenient for ranged ranger, but not having to rely on hitting / refreshing / Lasting debuff is huge, especially vs Megabosses. Not sure where from the remaining +10/+15 comes from. I can think of tactical meld for +5 from Aware, +10 acc vs Will (quite conditional, esp when considering weapon attacks). 

Huh. I thought they stacked. Could have sworn I used both in vanilla. But I might have just assumed they stacked and not checked the logs as much as I do now. I agree BPM Hunter's Claw and friends are worth using, if a bit tedious. In my ranger builds during harder fights I start with just beast's claw over and over, then pop a potion of invisibility and wait for potion of enlightenment to replenish my bond. Still Borrowed Instinct isn't just +20 accuracy and +20 all defenses, it also debuffs enemy intellect and perception by 8, giving +16 additional accuracy to anything targeting reflex or will. 

Borrowed Instinct is usually better. You do have to recast it every 40 to 60 seconds but it doesn't cost frontloaded 10 bond (all of it). In very long fights one could argue Beast's Claw is better, particularly in those fights where the enemy has resolve so high that you can't maintain borrowed instinct (some megabosses). So yeah I guess it really depends on the nature of the fight.

Psychovampiric shield doesn't boost accuracy but it debuffs enemy resolve by 10, making it effectively +10 weapon accuracy and +20 spell accuracy (minus the spells that target fortitude, which I never cast). Well I cast secret horrors. But that targets will in BPM which is niiiice. 

Last 5 I mistakenly added Tactical Meld for cipher but not Shadowed Hunters for ranger. But I forgot to add phantom foes, which I often cast as an opener given the huge AOE, and that gives flanked. So, technical accuracy difference is 0, with PVS it is 10, with PVS and Phantom Foes it is 20. My test seer which is built completely legit with normal items has effective bow accuracy of 219. My accuracy with spells targeting will like Mental Binding is "just" 152, but taking into account debuffs PVS and BI that becomes 188. Throw down secret horrors now and then and if it lands that's 198.

Of course keeping up all these spells takes some effort, but my script tries to keep up psychovampiric shield and borrowed instinct, secret horrors and phantom foes I typically cast manually. In my hierophant ultimate run I did script them though, so those four spells were always up. Not too hard to keep them up since they crit a lot. That's about 120 focus but I crit nearly every weapon hit so that's like 1.5 attacks worth of focus, easy to keep up and still spam soul annihilation now and then. 

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Not to say Seer isn't great. As I always say, a Cipher MC adds tremendous utility with just a couple of points spent on Cipher side (Hammering Thought, Draining/Biting Whip, Ancestor's Memory, Pain Block, Disintigrate, Whispers of Treasons, built-in +20% damages, et voilà !) 

I don't normally memorize Disintegrate or Ancestor's Memory (would certainly grab the latter in a party). But you definitely want psychovampiric shield. Steadfast, super cheap long duration buff / debuff. All you *really* need as a weapons fighter is psychovampiric shield and borrowed instinct. The rest is gravy. Where ciphers really start murdering things is with soul blades. A properly built soul blade multiclass can use soul annihilation every 3 to 4 weapon attacks for massive raw damage. A hierophant can refill focus in one attack sometimes using citzal's spirit lance, which also does us the favor of distributing soul annihilation to everyone it hits, so you can just blow up groups sometimes.

Ciphers are awesome and soul blades are doubly awesome. 

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

 

I'm always reluctant to overbuff stuff. 

Understandable. If it ain't broke don't fix it and all that. 

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

But as stated, my main concern was about other SC Buffs.

 

BPM Shadowed Hunters vs BPM Enduring Shadows is an interesting comparison.

Intuitive                                                    vs Swift                                                       => Quite similar

12hp/3s + -50% hostile effect duration vs +25 Deflection                                       => Quite similar (+25 Deflection is huge)

Tier 4 + Tier 8 ability point                     vs super scarce Tier 9 ability point          => Quite similar

Affect self + pet vs Affect pet only (but arguably both count as 1 party slot)       => Quite similar

Both invisible (better synergies with Rogue class)

No Teleport                                              vs Teleport

45s for 3 Bonds (with some flexibility to get Intuitive after the invisbibility)                     

                                                                  vs 20s for 2 Guiles (but the later has a native Tier 4 PL, so duration at PL 9 is 25s).

                               => I would say the last 3 items have a comparable level of power when summed up. Invisibility is more useful per cast than based on duration so better to have it for 2 ressources than for 3 ressources. 
 

So Bonded Fury comparing well to Shadowed Hunters should be enough to establish that it is roughly OK as a SC buff.

You mean compared to Enduring Shadows right? Shadowed Hunters is definitely better than Bonded Fury (the buff part anyway). But that's okay, shadowed hunters is a tier 9, I think at 45s 2 bond the bonded fury ability is good enough to want to cast. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

Psychovampiric shield doesn't boost accuracy but it debuffs enemy resolve by 10, making it effectively +10 weapon accuracy and +20 spell accuracy (minus the spells that target fortitude, which I never cast). Well I cast secret horrors. But that targets will in BPM which is niiiice. 

Always has been.

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

Last 5 I mistakenly added Tactical Meld for cipher but not Shadowed Hunters for ranger. But I forgot to add phantom foes, which I often cast as an opener given the huge AOE, and that gives flanked. So, technical accuracy difference is 0, with PVS it is 10, with PVS and Phantom Foes it is 20. My test seer which is built completely legit with normal items has effective bow accuracy of 219. My accuracy with spells targeting will like Mental Binding is "just" 152, but taking into account debuffs PVS and BI that becomes 188. Throw down secret horrors now and then and if it lands that's 198.

Of course keeping up all these spells takes some effort, but my script tries to keep up psychovampiric shield and borrowed instinct, secret horrors and phantom foes I typically cast manually. In my hierophant ultimate run I did script them though, so those four spells were always up. Not too hard to keep them up since they crit a lot. That's about 120 focus but I crit nearly every weapon hit so that's like 1.5 attacks worth of focus, easy to keep up and still spam soul annihilation now and then. 

It is probably not that hard on focus to maintain them, but it still decrease DPS a bit due to cast/recovery. But well, it also debuffs. Critting all the time has its own merit though. 

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

I don't normally memorize Disintegrate

Soulblade ney ? Only subclass that should NOT pick it IMHO.

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

or Ancestor's Memory (would certainly grab the latter in a party).

But you definitely want psychovampiric shield.

It is great, I would not count it as an absolute must pick. It is still some "advanced user pick" I think. You have to combo it a bit to make it worth it. My point was really that you can make a Cipher work with a raw minimum of abilities, it is not even meant to be an optimal build.

But yeah, it is almost as good as Enfeebled BUT goes through affliction resistance, helps weapon accuracy, is fast cast, benfits from all cipher vs will passives (that sweet +10 acc), is spammable and even provide a bit of defense. It is among the very best boss debuff, if not THE best and synergizes with  bunch of stuff.

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

You mean compared to Enduring Shadows right? Shadowed Hunters is definitely better than Bonded Fury (the buff part anyway). But that's okay, shadowed hunters is a tier 9, I think at 45s 2 bond the bonded fury ability is good enough to want to cast. 

 I did mean Bonded Fury. I think Bonded Fury is comparable to Shadowed Hunter in raw power, although arguably a bit weaker (and of course, I take into account to it is only 2/3 of the price). It really grants a bunch of buffs. I would say twice more in raw power. Of course, it only applies to the pet. Ranger can really build around Intuitive from shadowed Hunter, which makes SH more central in a decent SC ranger build.

I also think that the Pet to Ranger comparison is really more defavorable in solo, since you really have to stack all the good stuff on the single character, and the pet can't benefit from any party buff that could come from another source.

Finally you have been playing for a long time with pet type (the boar) which was secretely 1.42 less damaging than it should have been until BPM 2.5. Which may have gievn even worse impression. 

 

Anyway, that's not a very important debate since we both agree that Bonded Fury is strong enough (not even counting the pseudo-passive bond regen).

Edited March 29, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Shai Hulud]

11 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Always has been.

Oh, right. Think I was confused because I cast it a ton when stealing spells since it debuffs fortitude, and minor grimoire imprint also targets fortitude, so in my mind I associated the spell with fortitude. I remember reading in the change notes one of the spells was changed from fortitude, but now I'm pretty sure that was soul ignition

11 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

It is probably not that hard on focus to maintain them, but it still decrease DPS a bit due to cast/recovery. But well, it also debuffs. Critting all the time has its own merit though. 

In some cases it slows DPS, mainly vs weaker enemies. When you need high accuracy it is worth it, especially if using weapons with powerful on-crit effects. But even with like forbidden fist, crits extend enfeeblement duration which in turn extends other debuffs, lots of benefits of crits even if they're put out a bit slower. 

11 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Soulblade ney ? Only subclass that should NOT pick it IMHO.

Yeah that's all I play in POE2, on main character anyway. I mean I play other classes, just not other cipher subclasses.

11 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

It is great, I would not count it as an absolute must pick. It is still some "advanced user pick" I think. You have to combo it a bit to make it worth it. My point was really that you can make a Cipher work with a raw minimum of abilities, it is not even meant to be an optimal build.

But yeah, it is almost as good as Enfeebled BUT goes through affliction resistance, helps weapon accuracy, is fast cast, benfits from all cipher vs will passives (that sweet +10 acc), is spammable and even provide a bit of defense. It is among the very best boss debuff, if not THE best and synergizes with  bunch of stuff.

IMO it's a must-have if your party has melee users at all, or they want to target will vs enemies with higher will. Ciphers have so many will debuffs you can land stuff even against hardened megabosses like Auranic. I usually take Tenuous Grasp at L1, if you can't land PVS you can spam Tenuous Grasp until it at least grazes (I think auranic is immune to confuse but you get the point), instant -10 will debuff, cast PVS, now you're at -30, at this point you can recast PVS for a crit or go onto Borrowed Instinct, which I'd then recast for a crit if necessary.

11 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

 I did mean Bonded Fury. I think Bonded Fury is comparable to Shadowed Hunter in raw power, although arguably a bit weaker (and of course, I take into account to it is only 2/3 of the price). It really grants a bunch of buffs. I would say twice more in raw power. Of course, it only applies to the pet. Ranger can really build around Intuitive from shadowed Hunter, which makes SH more central in a decent SC ranger build.

I also think that the Pet to Ranger comparison is really more defavorable in solo, since you really have to stack all the good stuff on the single character, and the pet can't benefit from any party buff that could come from another source.

Finally you have been playing for a long time with pet type (the boar) which was secretely 1.42 less damaging than it should have been until BPM 2.5. Which may have gievn even worse impression. 

 

Anyway, that's not a very important debate since we both agree that Bonded Fury is strong enough (not even counting the pseudo-passive bond regen).

Sorry, I'm bored, wasn't really my intent to draw you into a debate. Still I have to get in my 2 cents, though you don't have to respond 

The way I'd evaluate buffs is whether they're useful. Like on paper, bonded fury buffs sound fantastic. All Tier 2 inspirations for pretty long duration? Sign me up! But wait, tenacious is only sometimes going to make enough difference on the pet to stop underpenetrating (energized upgrade is nice since with intuitive can crit, which *will* penetrate and interrupt), hardy is either already up or the +2 armor still may not be enough to make a difference, nimble on a pet that mostly tanks is very meh since it can't break engagement (swift would be nice), aware is meh because the pet doesn't do that much damage anyway except on crits, and we usually have up intuitive, and acute and resolute are "big who cares?" Which leaves, in the modified version, things that we actually care about on a pet: energized (particularly if intuitive is up), sometimes hardy (if we don't have hardy companion), nimble is a tiny DPS boost, that's basically it. The whole package is a small combat improvement, which with intuitive can lead to a moderate combat improvement. 

True about the boar, if he does 42% more damage now my estimate goes up to like 1/6. I've been using the bear some but he may have had same issues.

But yeah agree it is probably good enough to want to cast, though shadowed hunters is higher priority not just for healing the ranger, but because intuitive on the ranger is a significant DPS bump, AND it allows pet to crit and interrupt things with bonded fury, giving him some utility even if he doesn't do a ton of damage. And invisibility allows time to drink potions or otherwise regroup

 

[Elric Galad]

32 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

Oh, right. Think I was confused because I cast it a ton when stealing spells since it debuffs fortitude, and minor grimoire imprint also targets fortitude, so in my mind I associated the spell with fortitude. I remember reading in the change notes one of the spells was changed from fortitude, but now I'm pretty sure that was soul ignition

It is soul ignition indeed. All BPM Cipher DoT targets different defence.

32 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

I usually take Tenuous Grasp at L1, if you can't land PVS you can spam Tenuous Grasp until it at least grazes (I think auranic is immune to confuse but you get the point), instant -10 will debuff, cast PVS, now you're at -30, at this point you can recast PVS for a crit or go onto Borrowed Instinct, which I'd then recast for a crit if necessary.

Nice to ear BPM Tenuous Grasp is used  And exactly the way it is meant to be.

[Shai Hulud]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

It is soul ignition indeed. All BPM Cipher DoT targets different defence.

Nice to ear BPM Tenuous Grasp is used  And exactly the way it is meant to be.

Oh right you decreased the recovery time. Yeah the spell is even more useful than I thought given that, and I forgot it also causes shaken in addition to confused, so if the target doesn't resist both then it is -20 will debuff. I think Auranic resists half of it (confused) so it does -10 will. And since PVS doesn't actually cause an affliction it stacks which is awesome. 

[Elric Galad]

38 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

Oh right you decreased the recovery time. Yeah the spell is even more useful than I thought given that, and I forgot it also causes shaken in addition to confused, so if the target doesn't resist both then it is -20 will debuff. I think Auranic resists half of it (confused) so it does -10 will. And since PVS doesn't actually cause an affliction it stacks which is awesome. 

-5 RES from an active affliction does not stack with -10 RES from another active effect.

It might from a passive affliction though (Echoing Horror Frightened stacked with PVS in vanilla, but BPM tweaked it for clarity - as well as buffed Echoing Horror). BPM tweaked most afflictions from abilities so they don't stack with untyped debuffed. But not from passive items affliction (such as Willbreaker)

[Shai Hulud]

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

-5 RES from an active affliction does not stack with -10 RES from another active effect.

It might from a passive affliction though (Echoing Horror Frightened stacked with PVS in vanilla, but BPM tweaked it for clarity - as well as buffed Echoing Horror). BPM tweaked most afflictions from abilities so they don't stack with untyped debuffed. But not from passive items affliction (such as Willbreaker)

Hmm. I think I see. They do stack but only the extra 5 resolve from psychovampiric shield is added to the afflictions. I just tested it. I checked on an easy target with will 88. Tenuous grasp rolls against that, both shaken and confused hit. I then cast psychovampiric shield, it rolls vs 68, hit. I then cast borrowed instinct, rolls vs 58, hit. Creature now has will of 52. So the -10 resolve from PVS and -8 intellect from borrowed instinct don't stack with the inflictions for the initial -5. 

Confusing...I thought they'd stack because it's untyped. Like I know you changed the chanter ability "each kill fed his fury" which gave +5 might, con, and resolve to giving strong, fit, steadfast, but the old one definitely stacked with might, con, and resolve inspirations. I abused this in a spiritualist build using strand of favor to extend "each kill fed his fury" and also extended inspirations like hardy from "death and taxes" and tenacious from "call to arms" and courageous from "symbol of courage" and the inspirations stacked cleanly.

Why is it different with afflictions? IMO they should stack. That's generally the rule with untyped isn't it?

Also while on subject of chants:

"The Brideman slew thirty fore they crossed half the hall" -> 4 phrases, allied + self: strong, steadfast 30s
"Each Kill Fed His Fury" -> 4 phrases, allied + self: strong, steadfast, fit 30s, kills extend duration

"The Bride caught their ruse and set to make them pay" -> 5 phrases, allied + self: quick, insightful for 30s
"Set to their purpose they all knew their part" -> 6 phrases, allied + self: quick, insightful, smart for 30s

I know you partly addressed this by changing "Set to their purpose" to 5 phrases, but still, why the asymmetry? The mind buffs cost 1 phrase more than the body buffs. Also "Each Kill Fed His Fury" can be extended while "Set To Their Purpose" cannot, making it clearly better, and it still costs less. Also, these chants are considered "non-offensive" like "Their Champion Braved the Horde Alone" was, but you changed that one, which gives Energized for 30s, to "offensive invocation", so why is that buff offensive but the other four buffing invocations are non-offensive? Because they affect allies and not just self? I guess that's sort of justifiable, but I don't get why the mind invocations cost more.

 

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Hmm. I think I see. They do stack but only the extra 5 resolve from psychovampiric shield is added to the afflictions. I just tested it. I checked on an easy target with will 88. Tenuous grasp rolls against that, both shaken and confused hit. I then cast psychovampiric shield, it rolls vs 68, hit. I then cast borrowed instinct, rolls vs 58, hit. Creature now has will of 52. So the -10 resolve from PVS and -8 intellect from borrowed instinct don't stack with the inflictions for the initial -5. 

Confusing...I thought they'd stack because it's untyped. Like I know you changed the chanter ability "each kill fed his fury" which gave +5 might, con, and resolve to giving strong, fit, steadfast, but the old one definitely stacked with might, con, and resolve inspirations. I abused this in a spiritualist build using strand of favor to extend "each kill fed his fury" and also extended inspirations like hardy from "death and taxes" and tenacious from "call to arms" and courageous from "symbol of courage" and the inspirations stacked cleanly.

Why is it different with afflictions? IMO they should stack. That's generally the rule with untyped isn't it?

All shouldn't stack if coming from active abilities.

2 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Also while on subject of chants:

"The Brideman slew thirty fore they crossed half the hall" -> 4 phrases, allied + self: strong, steadfast 30s
"Each Kill Fed His Fury" -> 4 phrases, allied + self: strong, steadfast, fit 30s, kills extend duration

"The Bride caught their ruse and set to make them pay" -> 5 phrases, allied + self: quick, insightful for 30s
"Set to their purpose they all knew their part" -> 6 phrases, allied + self: quick, insightful, smart for 30s

I know you partly addressed this by changing "Set to their purpose" to 5 phrases, but still, why the asymmetry? The mind buffs cost 1 phrase more than the body buffs. Also "Each Kill Fed His Fury" can be extended while "Set To Their Purpose" cannot, making it clearly better, and it still costs less.

Somehow I think INT, PER, DEX is a kind of better combination. All three are kind of offensive, while MIG, RES, CON is more mixed. I won't say I'm not a bit annoyed by the assymetry though. Set to their purpose could get an extra something (used to be Brilliant Inspiration, Brilliant was removed and wasn't changed after that). I won't go for duration extension, cause duration extension have weird underlying bugs.

2 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Also, these chants are considered "non-offensive" like "Their Champion Braved the Horde Alone" was, but you changed that one, which gives Energized for 30s, to "offensive invocation", so why is that buff offensive but the other four buffing invocations are non-offensive? Because they affect allies and not just self? I guess that's sort of justifiable, but I don't get why the mind invocations cost more.

Cause "Their Champion Braved the Horde Alone" is a self buff with offensive effects (more damages, more PEN, Interrupt), not a support ability. It felt really close to the lore AND mechanic of Skald subclass, and Skald is the only subclass where these KW matter. 

[Elric Galad]

Let's be simple, I will set the duration of "the bride..." and upgrade to 40s. This would also make the duration strictly superior instead of slightly inferior due to higher PL Tier. 

Basically "The bride" would be slightly more cost effective (40s for 5 phrases vs 30s for 4 phrases), but the upgrade will arguably be slightly less good, but more reliable.

 

Might go for 75s for Smart and Acute from the related prayers for similar reasons (Fit and Hardy from lower tier lasts 60s). 

 

I'm also going to try to tweak "prisoners turned to their captor" so the Strong inspiration is also triggered when Grazed/Hit/Criy dexterity affliction attack after the initial effect.

I'm also considering tweaking the Strong duration to 45s to take into account its conditionality. Which will also refresh when caught in the middle of some Web, for an overall great conditional duration.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

I don't think The Bride really needs a buff -- it's more expensive because dexterity inspirations are much rarer than the others (priest doesn't have it at all), you can get single target dex inspiration from Paladin or self buffs from certain classes but that's about it. Teamwide perception and intellect inspirations are also very rare outside of priests.

It's also worth noting that the chanter is always affected by the intellect inspiration first, so the buff lasts slightly longer on the other teammates.

The other invocation is cheaper because only teamwide might inspiration is rare (priest has to hug teammates to use Holy Power on all of them). Priest gets teamwide T2 resolve inspiration as opposed to T1 from the invocation, druid has two ways to provide teamwide constitution inspiration.

[Shai Hulud]

7 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Let's be simple, I will set the duration of "the bride..." and upgrade to 40s. This would also make the duration strictly superior instead of slightly inferior due to higher PL Tier. 

Basically "The bride" would be slightly more cost effective (40s for 5 phrases vs 30s for 4 phrases), but the upgrade will arguably be slightly less good, but more reliable.

Sounds reasonable although making them cost the same seems simpler. I do agree int/per/dex is generally more useful than mig/con/res but their inspirations are pretty widely availalbe, I think? Time for nerdy experiment, I feel compelled. I'm looking at vanilla to try to find any pattern of intent. These are the available inspirations if I'm not forgetting anything

Barbarian - strong, fit, nimble, robust, courageous
Chanter - strong, strong, fit, steadfast, quick, insightful, smart, energized
Cipher - strong, insightful, steadfast, random tier2, robust, aware, resolute, brilliant
Druid - fit, robust
Fighter - aware, intuitive, acute, (all tiers 1s from inspired discipline), acute, swift
Monk - quick, smart, tenacious 
Paladin - robust, courageous, strong, fit, steadfast, tenacious, resolute, quick, fit, steadfast, hardy, quick, nimble, strong 
Priest - strong, insightful, resolute, fit, smart, strong, hardy, aware, resolute, tenacious, (all tier 1s from minor avatar), insightful, smart, steadfast
Ranger (ignoring pet) - quick, nimble, tenacious
Rogue - swift
Wizard - nimble, aware, fit, smart, swift, strong/fit/quick, random tier 2 (bekarna's midnight daydream)

So... in total we have

strong/tenacious/energized - 11 / 4 / 1
fit/hardy/robust - 10 / 2 / 3
quick/nimble/swift - 8 / 4 / 2
insightful/aware/intuitive - 5 / 4 / 1
smart/acute/brilliant - 7 / 2 / 1
steadfast/resolute/courageous - 7 / 4 / 2

So...yes you do have a point. There are 28 sources of strong/fit/steadfast, and 20 sources of quick/insightful/smart. Counting all tiers it is mig/con/res 44, dex/per/int 34. I probably missed one or two things but close enough.

Overall quick/insightful/smart are a bit more rare (particularly insightful), though the placement of buff abilities appears very random and mostly thematic, like fighters get easy access to the super rare intuitive and acute at low levels. Meanwhile a wizard has easy aware, nimble, swift (super rare), fit, smart, but only way you get strong is citzal's martial power.

7 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

 

Might go for 75s for Smart and Acute from the related prayers for similar reasons (Fit and Hardy from lower tier lasts 60s). 

What related prayers? Fit and hardy from what? Not following sorry

7 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

 

I'm also going to try to tweak "prisoners turned to their captor" so the Strong inspiration is also triggered when Grazed/Hit/Criy dexterity affliction attack after the initial effect.

I'm also considering tweaking the Strong duration to 45s to take into account its conditionality. Which will also refresh when caught in the middle of some Web, for an overall great conditional duration.

Seems reasonable. I never take that ability...guess it could be useful for parties in some fights. And I agree things that require specific triggers like killing something, or in this case having an affliction remove, should get longer than the standard 10 to 15s. I'm looking at Tier 8 and 9 chants and some of them are pretty mehhh. 

Like "And with furious vengeance" needs some kind of buff. 3 penetration is solid but a 6 phrase buff that lasts 15s? I don't know... What do you think about bumping to 20?

"His Laughter Rang Out The Halls" seems really bad. 6 phrases, Tier 8, for a cone of daze lasting 8s? I mean for 3 you can get cone of paralyze/frighten 4s/6s or damage/stun/push 5s. It also targets fortitude and unlike the stun cone doesn't get +15 accuracy. Needs bonus accuracy, longer duration, secondary effect, something IMO. Maybe if it got daze/confuse or daze/frighten or daze/disoriented. Those combos are pretty decent especially the last two. Daze/disoriented would be my vote of those three.

"The Foul Thing Gave One Last Grasp" perma-sickens friend/foe in area. Maybe this is better than I'm imagining, but I usually don't summon the dank spore anyway so IDK, but..the upgrade could make it more attractive if this effect were stronger like perma-weaken, even better if it's foe only. 

"And Sip From The Marrow" has probably unfixable bizarre targeting, but the action speed buff of 25% for 8s... since that is conditioned on allies being in the area of the exploding enemies, maybe it should last a bit longer? 

Other invocations look okay to me. 

"Arrow Sings" chant maybe bump to +2 pen though being a tier 9 chant. 

Just my random thoughts, chanters are quite strong already though I don't see much reason to go SC. The only super good invocations are "Eld Nary's Curse" and "His Heart Did Fill".

-----

I've also been thinking that I've proposed lots of buffs but not really any nerfs. I mean you did a good job nerfing most of the broken things already, in some cases too much IMO, and I'm not really a fan of nerfs in general for increasing difficulty. But I have been thinking about other ways to increase difficulty, like maybe buffing enemy specific abilities? Of course it isn't very transparent what abilities they have to a non-modder.

[Shai Hulud]

21 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I don't think The Bride really needs a buff -- it's more expensive because dexterity inspirations are much rarer than the others (priest doesn't have it at all), you can get single target dex inspiration from Paladin or self buffs from certain classes but that's about it. Teamwide perception and intellect inspirations are also very rare outside of priests.

It's also worth noting that the chanter is always affected by the intellect inspiration first, so the buff lasts slightly longer on the other teammates.

The other invocation is cheaper because only teamwide might inspiration is rare (priest has to hug teammates to use Holy Power on all of them). Priest gets teamwide T2 resolve inspiration as opposed to T1 from the invocation, druid has two ways to provide teamwide constitution inspiration.

Dex inspirations aren't that rare. Priest has minor avatar. PER and INT inspirations are the rare ones.

What do you mean the chanter is affected by the intellect inspiration first? You mean Set To Their Purpose procs the +5 INT and applies that to the duration? Because IDK, I seem to recall scripting this ability and its duration depending whether I'd already cast the ability...maybe I'm mistaken.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[NotDumbEnough]

Priest has minor avatar, but cannot give others a dex inspiration. Many characters such as multiclass Fighter/Rogue otherwise cannot get a dex inspiration at all outside of item abilities and Paladin spending Zeal to individually buff them. Some classes can give themselves a dex inspiration for a short time but it is not economical to spam them over and over (e.g. ranger and barbarian) especially if they have low intellect. Chanter's The Bride is powerful because it is the only cheap and efficient way to provide your whole team with a dex inspiration.

 

What I mean is that all of your buff invocations always affect yourself first before anyone else. Travel time is not instant. Therefore the Smart inspiration takes effect before the buffs reach your teammates.

Edited March 30, 2023 by NotDumbEnough

[Shai Hulud]

6 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Priest has minor avatar, but cannot give others a dex inspiration. Many characters such as multiclass Fighter/Rogue otherwise cannot get a dex inspiration at all outside of item abilities and Paladin spending Zeal to individually buff them. Some classes can give themselves a dex inspiration for a short time but it is not economical to spam them over and over (e.g. ranger and barbarian) especially if they have low intellect. Chanter's The Bride is powerful because it is the only cheap and efficient way to provide your whole team with a dex inspiration.

It depends what classes you're looking at. Wizards don't have might inspirations besides Citzal's Martial Power which is still tier 1 and generally not a great idea to cast as it disables spellcasting. But wizards have deletrious alacrity of motion for very long duration swift + action speed. Also fleet feet for nimble. 

But most builds have something they're missing. Rogues are very inspiration poor, yes, have zero from rogue side if multiclassed. But paladins have multiple ways to hand out quick and also ways to easily regen zeal in parties. The perception and intellect inspirations are overall more rare, though priests can cast them in AOES. I think that's just a thematic theme. Priests don't have quick for same reason wizards don't have strong and barbarians don't get smart. Anyway I acknowledged for whatever reason the devs made quick/insightful/smart comparitively rare to strong/fit/steadfast.

Set To Their Purpose is just expensive and unless you're a troubadour it is hard to keep up this buff as well as casting say instruments of death. Maybe it's fine as is, I just thought the asymettry with "each kill fed" was odd particularly since that one is also extended by killing things. Also being lower level that one gets a 5% power level boost so lasts a bit longer anyway. You get about +10s per kill which is pretty solid except in some boss fights with nothing to easily kill. Lot of fights you can cast it once and forget about it, others maybe cast it twice. Also some builds like berserker howler can kill skellies while attacking enemy and keep it up indefinitely. Maybe "Set To Their Purpose" is strong enough but "Each Kill Fed His Fury" is a much stronger upgrade given one character can perma-buff the whole party with it. And it is cheaper.

My cantor can keep it up pretty easily in most SSS fights for example. But not "Set To Their Purpose". That requires over half your phrase resources even with a troubadour. 

Another thing bugging me about chanters is that ability duration often doesn't matter compared to how many phrases you have. Like if I'm trying to keep up Set To Their Purpose and Instruments of Death, basically I cast Set To Their Purpose, then cast Set To Their Purpose Again so it lasts longer, then next time I have 7 phrases I'm casting Instruments of Death, next time I have 6 phrases I'm casting Set To Their Purpose, etc. Often I have like 10s leftover on Set To Their Purpose but if I wait, the summons will die so you either waste phrase regeneration not using invocations or you waste ability duration. So it's kind of difficult figuring out what duration you really need, and an ability may seem adequate duration but because of the way phrases build up it really isn't, and considerations are different with brisk recitation on or off. This also makes chanters a bit less responsive particularly regarding Set To their Purpose because of the bonus duration you get from intellect, you may have to choose from losing bonus duration and starting over or not casting an invocation in time.

Like if I have 10s left on "Set To Their Purpose" when I recast it, it would be nice if the duration got stacked on top of that instead of resetting. This could lead to buffing over and over while stealthed to get very long duration buffs, though...but it would be very tedious to chant 24 to 36 seconds just to gain 10s. 

That was a lot longer than I intended. I'm rambling please don't feel obliged to respond to all this. 

6 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

 

What I mean is that all of your buff invocations always affect yourself first before anyone else. Travel time is not instant. Therefore the Smart inspiration takes effect before the buffs reach your teammates.

Oh. Well it's nearly instant. Why is this significant if it takes half a second delay to reach party members?

[Elric Galad]

On 3/30/2023 at 6:37 PM, Shai Hulud said:

What related prayers? Fit and hardy from what? Not following sorry

Prayer for the Body, Prayer for he Spirit, Litany for the Body, Prayer for the Spirit

The INT ones are one tier above the CON ones with the same duration. I would set the INT ones to 75s instead of 60s to take into account the tier difference.

On 3/30/2023 at 6:37 PM, Shai Hulud said:

Seems reasonable. I never take that ability...guess it could be useful for parties in some fights. And I agree things that require specific triggers like killing something, or in this case having an affliction remove, should get longer than the standard 10 to 15s. I'm looking at Tier 8 and 9 chants and some of them are pretty mehhh. 

Like "And with furious vengeance" needs some kind of buff. 3 penetration is solid but a 6 phrase buff that lasts 15s? I don't know... What do you think about bumping to 20?

Even 30s, especially if the Tier 9 chant is buffed to +2. +3 PEN is still way rarer than +2 PEN (Tenacious and Modals give you +2 PEN from an active source). You won't pick both, but the tier 9 chant won't be picked by all the builds (since Tier 9 has a lots of other option).

On 3/30/2023 at 6:37 PM, Shai Hulud said:

"His Laughter Rang Out The Halls" seems really bad. 6 phrases, Tier 8, for a cone of daze lasting 8s? I mean for 3 you can get cone of paralyze/frighten 4s/6s or damage/stun/push 5s. It also targets fortitude and unlike the stun cone doesn't get +15 accuracy. Needs bonus accuracy, longer duration, secondary effect, something IMO. Maybe if it got daze/confuse or daze/frighten or daze/disoriented. Those combos are pretty decent especially the last two. Daze/disoriented would be my vote of those three.

His Laughter Rang Through the Halls :
8s Daze -> 30s
Interrupt on Hit -> Interrupt on Graze

 

I think it's ok with the current implementation BPM described above. Daze can really shut down some encounters, it is good enough to have it for 1 ability point.

On 3/30/2023 at 6:37 PM, Shai Hulud said:

"The Foul Thing Gave One Last Grasp" perma-sickens friend/foe in area. Maybe this is better than I'm imagining, but I usually don't summon the dank spore anyway so IDK, but..the upgrade could make it more attractive if this effect were stronger like perma-weaken, even better if it's foe only. 

BPM made it foe only. It is also raw damages AoE, so I think it's fine as an upgrade. It is not the most obvious summon to use, but permanent sicken isn't bad, and using it with beckoner double the on-death effect.

On 3/30/2023 at 6:37 PM, Shai Hulud said:

"And Sip From The Marrow" has probably unfixable bizarre targeting, but the action speed buff of 25% for 8s... since that is conditioned on allies being in the area of the exploding enemies, maybe it should last a bit longer? 

Boil Their Flesh From Skin to Bone & Upgrade :
Secondary Cones replaced by simple 2,5m radius AoE. This enables the Acid Explosion to be properly centered on the victim.
(I learned that the secondary Cones originated from the caster instead of from the actual victim. This changes also correct this glitch)
<Version 1.3.2> secondary corrode damage 24-27 -> 48-54 (initial raw damages unchanged.
<Version 1.3.2> cast time 3s -> 0.5

The AoE is fixed by BPM. Both secondary effects have the same radius.

But yeah, Sip from the Marrow has a too short buff duration. 8s should be 15s. The healing is great for an additional effect, but the action speed buff is indeed too short.

EDIT : and make action speed bonus stackable. Not that it is easy to get several charge, but should at least be fun when it happens?

On 3/30/2023 at 6:37 PM, Shai Hulud said:

Other invocations look okay to me. 

"Arrow Sings" chant maybe bump to +2 pen though being a tier 9 chant. 

Agreed. Picking Tier 9 is anyway a difficult choice.

On 3/30/2023 at 6:37 PM, Shai Hulud said:

Just my random thoughts, chanters are quite strong already though I don't see much reason to go SC. The only super good invocations are "Eld Nary's Curse" and "His Heart Did Fill".

What SC Chanter brings :

+2/3 PL

BPM Great Soul allow generating +25% phrases.

Energized is "cheaper", so easier to use in conjunction with other things.

Tier 9 summons are great :
- BPM dragon is arguably the tankiest thing in the game. It can tank Dorudugan, it even has Fire Immunity. It can applies Frightened cyclically, big AoE damages and a total -45 Fortitude debuff. Really open some great possibilities even if you might prefer other summons for other fights.
- The 4th weapon is great. It also has an AoE Daze ability (2x in vanilla, BPM harmonized all weapon abilities to 3x so the Ancient Weapon summons is weaker but the Tier 9 upgrade itself is slightly stronger). 

Allows plenty of Tier 7 picks. Including these Empower talent, which synergize super well with Sasha's.

 

Overall, I won't say it has as much raw power as a well built MC (though BPM Great Soul reduced the gap) but it really has some gamechanging traits (that's my way of "redesigning" SC). Your proposal for better party-wide PEN buff will also help giving it a distinct role.

On 3/30/2023 at 6:37 PM, Shai Hulud said:

-----

I've also been thinking that I've proposed lots of buffs but not really any nerfs. I mean you did a good job nerfing most of the broken things already, in some cases too much IMO, and I'm not really a fan of nerfs in general for increasing difficulty.

Now that I'm thinking I might "round down" the Chanter invocation instead or "rounding up" this one time. I have done enough powercreeping overall.

The MIG, RES invocation and its CON upgrade will be set to 30s with no extension. (Duration extension are buggy and the CON upgrade is enough anyway. I will displace it to the nerf package)

The PER, DEX invocation and its INT upgrade will be set to 35s with no extension.

 Triple Inspirations are the equivalent of a Tier 8 Priest spell anyway.

On 3/30/2023 at 6:37 PM, Shai Hulud said:

But I have been thinking about other ways to increase difficulty, like maybe buffing enemy specific abilities? Of course it isn't very transparent what abilities they have to a non-modder.

Well, that's a big can of worms to open. At least kith-abilities-using foes are affected by the same buff as you. 

I made ONE exception though : giving a infinite spell cast regeneration (every 12s) to Auranic as I felt giving Potions of Enlightenment to players but keeping her with finite ressources wasn't fair.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Shai Hulud]

I swear I searched the notes for "chanter" and didnt' see anything about upgraded tier8+ invocations besides 

12 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Prayer for the Body, Prayer for he Spirit, Litany for the Body, Prayer for the Spirit

The INT ones are one tier above the CON ones with the same duration. I would set the INT ones to 75s instead of 60s to take into account the tier difference.

Ah. Thought you were talking about chanters, I was like "prayers"? Got it, adjust time due to power level differences. 

12 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Even 30s, especially if the Tier 9 chant is buffed to +2. +3 PEN is still way rarer than +2 PEN (Tenacious and Modals give you +2 PEN from an active source). You won't pick both, but the tier 9 chant won't be picked by all the builds (since Tier 9 has a lots of other option).

His Laughter Rang Through the Halls :
8s Daze -> 30s
Interrupt on Hit -> Interrupt on Graze

I swear I ctrl+f "chanter" in the BPM notes and somehow I missed this. Change seems good, sorry about that. I was looking at the original. 

12 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

 

I think it's ok with the current implementation BPM described above. Daze can really shut down some encounters, it is good enough to have it for 1 ability point.

BPM made it foe only. It is also raw damages AoE, so I think it's fine as an upgrade. It is not the most obvious summon to use, but permanent sicken isn't bad, and using it with beckoner double the on-death effect.

Boil Their Flesh From Skin to Bone & Upgrade :
Secondary Cones replaced by simple 2,5m radius AoE. This enables the Acid Explosion to be properly centered on the victim.
(I learned that the secondary Cones originated from the caster instead of from the actual victim. This changes also correct this glitch)
<Version 1.3.2> secondary corrode damage 24-27 -> 48-54 (initial raw damages unchanged.
<Version 1.3.2> cast time 3s -> 0.5

The AoE is fixed by BPM. Both secondary effects have the same radius.

But yeah, Sip from the Marrow has a too short buff duration. 8s should be 15s. The healing is great for an additional effect, but the action speed buff is indeed too short.

EDIT : and make action speed bonus stackable. Not that it is easy to get several charge, but should at least be fun when it happens?

Somehow missed this one too. I think when I searched "chanter" and saw "summon rebalance" I assumed it was just the notes about the summons and went on to the next ctrl-f chanter which is under "ENchanter", skipped the whole section...

12 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Agreed. Picking Tier 9 is anyway a difficult choice.

What SC Chanter brings :

+2/3 PL

BPM Great Soul allow generating +25% phrases.

Energized is "cheaper", so easier to use in conjunction with other things.

Tier 9 summons are great :
- BPM dragon is arguably the tankiest thing in the game. It can tank Dorudugan, it even has Fire Immunity. It can applies Frightened cyclically, big AoE damages and a total -45 Fortitude debuff. Really open some great possibilities even if you might prefer other summons for other fights.
- The 4th weapon is great. It also has an AoE Daze ability (2x in vanilla, BPM harmonized all weapon abilities to 3x so the Ancient Weapon summons is weaker but the Tier 9 upgrade itself is slightly stronger). 

Allows plenty of Tier 7 picks. Including these Empower talent, which synergize super well with Sasha's.

 

Overall, I won't say it has as much raw power as a well built MC (though BPM Great Soul reduced the gap) but it really has some gamechanging traits (that's my way of "redesigning" SC). Your proposal for better party-wide PEN buff will also help giving it a distinct role.

Their Champion isn't really cheaper, though, you just changed the upgrade "far from defeated" which is cheaper by 1 gut gives back 1 fewer phrase so it seems about the same. Not that that one really needs an upgrade, I feel like both abilities are good enough because of how strong energized is. Yeah I thought the summons were okay. Haven't really used the dragon upgrade so didn't speculate, and animated weapons are amazing, but the upgrade is just a 33% improvement on an already amazing spell so it's on borderline territory to pick up. I don't think it needs upgrade, just I don't personally put that in same category as like "eld nary" upgrade which goes from 4 bounces to 12, which does absolutely insane damage. 

I do have couple comments about the damage spells, though. Chanter's best spells just do freeze damage (besides stormspeaker, which you can't take). Is there any way to open up NPC-restricted subclasses to the player? LIke I would love to play stormspeaker or gunhawk. 

Also, what about changing the damage types of "her tears fell like rain" and "eld nary" to freeze/shock? These are both really good spells, except when you run into things resistant to freeze, then they're useless, and the only other primary damage spells a chanter has are "thrice was she wronged" and upgrade, which is okay for low level spell, "white worms" also okay but limited in use, and "boil their flesh" which is mostly situationally used on near death things. Basically the main damage spells to me are "her tears fell like rain" and "eld nary" line. "Her Tears" is pure freeze, could make it freeze/shock which fits okay with a storm or freeze/crush which also fits pretty well. "Eld nary" does have a +25% crush lash but I feel like making the whole thing freeze/crush or freeze/shock and maybe removing the lash to balance makes it more versatile. Also "eld nary" is described as "high penetration" but is just 1 point more than "her tears". I feel like damage spells in general could use penetration buffs. The best tactic on potd upscaled is usually to punch things because the spell penetration is relatively worse. 

Basically I like using chanters as damage casters but they just feel too specialized because of the freeze focus in the high level spells. 

That's a good point about the empower. I never use the empower abilities in the past because they kind of sucked and empowers are hard to use in no rest runs anyway. But chanter with sasha's singing scimitar can use one every fight, combine with various weyc items and least unstable coil. Could be interesting build there.

Thanks for considering my input, even if half of it missed things you've already done. I try to follow the notes but I missed a couple things this time. 

12 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Now that I'm thinking I might "round down" the Chanter invocation instead or "rounding up" this one time. I have done enough powercreeping overall.

Damn. I liked "each kill fed his fury" but yeah the extension on kill is a little OP. It is pretty easy to cast once and keep up in a lot of fights. I guess removal is fair, or could just halve the extension duration. 

12 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

The MIG, RES invocation and its CON upgrade will be set to 30s with no extension. (Duration extension are buggy and the CON upgrade is enough anyway. I will displace it to the nerf package)

The PER, DEX invocation and its INT upgrade will be set to 35s with no extension.

 Triple Inspirations are the equivalent of a Tier 8 Priest spell anyway.

Sort of, a little hard to evaluate because they take time to build up. It's like a priest with infinite casts who can only cast a spell once per 18 to 42s. 

12 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Well, that's a big can of worms to open. At least kith-abilities-using foes are affected by the same buff as you. 

I made ONE exception though : giving a infinite spell cast regeneration (every 12s) to Auranic as I felt giving Potions of Enlightenment to players but keeping her with finite ressources wasn't fair.

Yeah I noticed she was a little tougher now. I like it. Not sure what enemy buffs would be easy to implement. Maybe things like giving overall accuracy and damage bonuses? Mostly accuracy, I am fighting DLC bosses and most are missing me like 90% (sometimes 100%) of the time vs everything but deflection because my defenses are all above 200. Of course there are already difficulty mods I can use, though I'm unsure if they're compatible, like deadly deadfire. Tested, compatible, this will do niceley with BPM. Yeah I guess you don't really need to do anything in that area you wanted to

One other thing, tornado is really busted, at least as scroll casts. The ingredients to make them are common, you pick up at least 7 just wandering through the Forgotten Sanctum. And the AOE is absurdly huge with high arcana. I was able to easily solo the Oracle on POTD upscaled all trials doing nothing but casting tornado repeatedly. Took me like 16 tornadoes to clear the map and I took no damage. Haven't tried vs other bosses but I expect it is similarly devestating. The vanilla tornado was in need of a buff but you might have gone overboard in this case, just look at this AOE (this pic is from me casting it as an "emergency cast", not the time I used nothing but tornadoes). 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

I swear I ctrl+f "chanter" in the BPM notes and somehow I missed this. Change seems good, sorry about that. I was looking at the original. 

No pb

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

Their Champion isn't really cheaper, though, you just changed the upgrade "far from defeated" which is cheaper by 1 gut gives back 1 fewer phrase so it seems about the same.

I mean compared to MC Chanter, it has a relative cost of 3 instead of 5 phrases.

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

I do have couple comments about the damage spells, though. Chanter's best spells just do freeze damage (besides stormspeaker, which you can't take). Is there any way to open up NPC-restricted subclasses to the player? LIke I would love to play stormspeaker or gunhawk. 

Console command can do this. I don't allow NPC classes for PC since it's not the purpose of the mod, and it is easy to do through Console.

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

Also, what about changing the damage types of "her tears fell like rain" and "eld nary" to freeze/shock? These are both really good spells, except when you run into things resistant to freeze, then they're useless, and the only other primary damage spells a chanter has are "thrice was she wronged" and upgrade, which is okay for low level spell, "white worms" also okay but limited in use, and "boil their flesh" which is mostly situationally used on near death things. Basically the main damage spells to me are "her tears fell like rain" and "eld nary" line. "Her Tears" is pure freeze, could make it freeze/shock which fits okay with a storm or freeze/crush which also fits pretty well. "Eld nary" does have a +25% crush lash but I feel like making the whole thing freeze/crush or freeze/shock and maybe removing the lash to balance makes it more versatile.

Well, I don't change damage type unless absolutely needed. SC Paladin has exactly zero non fire sources of damages apart weapon pocking, while a Chanter can use summons, Dragon trashed, "thrice was she wronged" and "boil the flesh" as backup to deal damages. Summons especially are often fire related (the wurms are extremely cost efficient for damages).

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

Also "eld nary" is described as "high penetration" but is just 1 point more than "her tears". I feel like damage spells in general could use penetration buffs. The best tactic on potd upscaled is usually to punch things because the spell penetration is relatively worse. 

PEN 9 or PEN 10 are relatively high PEN for AoE spells. PEN 9 happens but is high PEN on its own. PEN 10 is basically more PEN than 90% of damages spells, even counting the raw one (I mean, apart Minoletta Precise Burst, I can't name another non raw AoE spell with 10+ PEN). So I count it as High PEN. Also both upgrades basically add +1 PEN because it scales the intresic level of the ability (while PL still provides benefit as if non scaled).

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

Yeah I noticed she was a little tougher now. I like it. Not sure what enemy buffs would be easy to implement. Maybe things like giving overall accuracy and damage bonuses? Mostly accuracy, I am fighting DLC bosses and most are missing me like 90% (sometimes 100%) of the time vs everything but deflection because my defenses are all above 200. Of course there are already difficulty mods I can use, though I'm unsure if they're compatible, like deadly deadfire. Tested, compatible, this will do niceley with BPM. Yeah I guess you don't really need to do anything in that area you wanted to

Deadly Deadfire and the various difficulty options (including solo) will do the trick. This is not the purpose of BPM

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

One other thing, tornado is really busted, at least as scroll casts. The ingredients to make them are common, you pick up at least 7 just wandering through the Forgotten Sanctum. And the AOE is absurdly huge with high arcana. I was able to easily solo the Oracle on POTD upscaled all trials doing nothing but casting tornado repeatedly. Took me like 16 tornadoes to clear the map and I took no damage. Haven't tried vs other bosses but I expect it is similarly devestating. The vanilla tornado was in need of a buff but you might have gone overboard in this case, just look at this AOE (this pic is from me casting it as an "emergency cast", not the time I used nothing but tornadoes). 

Well, great to know but spamming expensive consumable is kind of... legit to kill a boss ?

Of course, it could have had more expensive component, but my priority is to have a great ability for SC Druid.

If someone wants to use such joker to clear a particular fight, why not ? It isn't a "free" win after all.

[Shai Hulud]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

No pb

I mean compared to MC Chanter, it has a relative cost of 3 instead of 5 phrases.

Console command can do this. I don't allow NPC classes for PC since it's not the purpose of the mod, and it is easy to do through Console.

Well, I don't change damage type unless absolutely needed. SC Paladin has exactly zero non fire sources of damages apart weapon pocking, while a Chanter can use summons, Dragon trashed, "thrice was she wronged" and "boil the flesh" as backup to deal damages. Summons especially are often fire related (the wurms are extremely cost efficient for damages).

PEN 9 or PEN 10 are relatively high PEN for AoE spells. PEN 9 happens but is high PEN on its own. PEN 10 is basically more PEN than 90% of damages spells, even counting the raw one (I mean, apart Minoletta Precise Burst, I can't name another non raw AoE spell with 10+ PEN). So I count it as High PEN. Also both upgrades basically add +1 PEN because it scales the intresic level of the ability (while PL still provides benefit as if non scaled).

Deadly Deadfire and the various difficulty options (including solo) will do the trick. This is not the purpose of BPM

To most of this I say..fair enough. The chanter spell pen may be typical but it is still weak compared to mythic melee weapons which also often have modals that give even more penetration. Like war hammer is not the highest pen weapon but it does 13 pen at mythic with +2 from modal. 12 at just legendary no modal. Morning star does 14 pen at mythic and does crush/pierce. Fists do 14+ with easy power level scaling, plus have haymaker. I like casters but they just can't compete in this game except for hybrids.

I guess that's just the nature of the game. Very much disagree about paladins v chanter though, sacred immolation and light of pure zeal both do fire/frost in vanilla. They may not work properly on fire-immune creatures but that's another issue entirely. Vanilla paladins have 2 high level abilities that do non-fire, while chanters have just one high level ability that does non-freeze. Yeah there's summons but that's a different type of build. And you'd only really use "Boil the flesh" on near death things, so 3/4 of the time mostly ignoring it. Chanters are versatile yes but not in the nuking department, in that they're like 90% freeze. Probably not using "Her Revenge Swept" much once getting other spells since damage is low. 

Would you consider at least making the upgraded abilities freeze/crush or freeze/shock? Particularly on Eld Nary's Curse since that is SC only, though I'd like seeing it on the base abilities as well. With Eld Nary could replace the crushing lash. Her Tears could alternatively do pierce/freeze, as they're described as "bolts of freezing ice" so pierce/freeze really makes more sense than just freeze IMO. 

I just hate caster chanters have few options vs certain foes. The whole Beast of Winter DLC tons of stuff immune to freeze. A small change in damage type could make like caster bellower build (best way to get +power level on spells) much more effective in these few fights while not having a large effect overall.

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Well, great to know but spamming expensive consumable is kind of... legit to kill a boss ?

Of course, it could have had more expensive component, but my priority is to have a great ability for SC Druid.

If someone wants to use such joker to clear a particular fight, why not ? It isn't a "free" win after all.

They're not expensive. Palm slats, leathery wings, and primal wind are all very common. I didn't even have to buy ingredients to craft them, I had enough. If you can churn out boss killer scrolls for like 10k (7k with berath crafting pick) that seems way too easy. An ability that hits nearly the entire screen, does large damage, and interrupts and knocks up for several seconds with near 100% success even vs megabosses (with my char anyway) seems way broken.

Still, I don't really care that much about nerfing things as I can just not use them, but the same logic applies to plenty of things you did nerf, so I thought you'd want to know about these things... If there were a sword that won fights with zero risk would you nerf that? Even if it cost 10k or more?

Why did you nerf Great Maelstrom?