Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0

[Shai Hulud]

19 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I think it works that well in this fight because the Megaboss has AoE Attacks that systematically kills your skellies. But in a larger party, a barb could have done the job. 

The annoying thing is that it is really only the skelly chant that leads to such absurd Zeal gain. Other summons work great, but not to such extreme extant. 

Brilliant is still 1 resource per 6s. The only BPM tweak was to make higher spell Tier more rare to regen (and it starts giving back resource 3s avec the start, not immediately). 

Really? The tactician sheet says "brilliant" gives +5 INT, +1 power levels, same as acute. Is this display wrong? Honestly haven't messed with trying to get brilliant in BPM because maintaining brilliant seems difficult now. Anyway my point was just perma-brilliant was OP but one chanter can regen zeal at about same rate without doing anything he wouldn't normally (at least how I had scripted the spiritualist solo).

Yeah the skellies have 9 deflection and like no health so lot of enemies can zurg them as they spawn more or less, definitely HOW, also Dorudugan's Brutal Cleave and Helfire Barrages, I think Belranga's AOE paralyze attack, I guess maybe not in some more standard fights, but then again in those you wouldn't need such intense resource regen.

Is there no way to distinguish between the summons you can control and the ones you can't? The scripting AI can do it, but I don't know how. For instance if I try to script cast psychovampiric shield on ally with lowest will, I want it to target the skellies but it jumps to a party-controlled summon or a companion. The skellies are unscriptable because the AI sees them as different somehow.

[Elric Galad]

10 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

Really? The tactician sheet says "brilliant" gives +5 INT, +1 power levels, same as acute. Is this display wrong?

Somehow Yes, but I've tweaked Tactician several Times too so it could be messed.

Tactician should get the normalna brilliant Now (but under new condition : needs also to have more than 50% health, anf he gets Confused and longer recovery under 50% health. 

10 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

Honestly haven't messed with trying to get brilliant in BPM because maintaining brilliant seems difficult now. Anyway my point was just perma-brilliant was OP but one chanter can regen zeal at about same rate without doing anything he wouldn't normally (at least how I had scripted the spiritualist solo).

Yeah the skellies have 9 deflection and like no health so lot of enemies can zurg them as they spawn more or less, definitely HOW, also Dorudugan's Brutal Cleave and Helfire Barrages, I think Belranga's AOE paralyze attack, I guess maybe not in some more standard fights, but then again in those you wouldn't need such intense resource regen.

Is there no way to distinguish between the summons you can control and the ones you can't? The scripting AI can do it, but I don't know how. For instance if I try to script cast psychovampiric shield on ally with lowest will, I want it to target the skellies but it jumps to a party-controlled summon or a companion. The skellies are unscriptable because the AI sees them as different somehow.

Not sure, but anyway it would mess with monk and wiz who only have non controlable summons. 

Honnestly the safest way is to put a Cooldown on Divine Retribution Zeal gain, so it works well on "normal party" 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Shai Hulud]

1 minute ago, Elric Galad said:

Somehow Yes, but I've tweaked Tactician several Times too so it could be messed.

Tactician should get the normalna brilliant Now (but under new condition : needs also to have more than 50% health, anf he gets Confused and longer recovery under 50% health. 

Not sure, but anyway it would mess with monk and wiz who only have non controlable summons. 

Honnestly the safest way is to put a Cooldown on Divine Retribution Zeal gain.

Yeah it is annoying those guys aren't tagged as allies, I can't cast echoing shield / tactical meld / pain block on them with my transcendent. That build is pretty good but would be a lot better if they were just tagged allies, even if they weren't party controllable. I assume there's no way to tag them as allies or make them party controllable? 

A cooldown on divine retribution is not a bad idea. Like one zeal pre 10s?

Some day I'm going to learn how to do this stuff myself so I don't have to bother you so much

[Elric Galad]

4 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Yeah it is annoying those guys aren't tagged as allies, I can't cast echoing shield / tactical meld / pain block on them with my transcendent. That build is pretty good but would be a lot better if they were just tagged allies, even if they weren't party controllable. I assume there's no way to tag them as allies or make them party controllable? 

It's technically doable, even rather easy. The issue is that it enables to use all active abilities on items equipped by your clones.

Which is broken for an "official" mod. But you could still tweak it yourself and rules out using active item abilities on your clones.

4 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

A cooldown on divine retribution is not a bad idea. Like one zeal pre 10s?

This order of magnitude, yes.

I'm actually thinking about +2 Zeal per downed ally with a cooldown of 30s, so the ability would mostly work as well as in vanilla for parties without many summons. 

4 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Some day I'm going to learn how to do this stuff myself so I don't have to bother you so much

You could. PoE2 is not hard to mod, I think. Consider it's my first mod ever and I'm no dev IRL.

You can give it a try by enabling exhortations on oneself. It's not very complicated using the many tutorials. It could even be a nice small mod on Nexus (I've not found this by quick research).

[Elric Galad]

Okay, since I want to release a new BPM version soon, I'll go with the following :

- 0.5/4s cast/recovery, 12s base duration, 1 discipline, 2,5 radius
- Take the Hit grants 33% less damages taken by the to allies in the AoE
- Take the Hit transfers stacking 33% more damages taken by the fighter for each protected ally (so +66% damages taken for 2 allies affected, +99% for 3 allies, etc...).

 

I think it's less volatile than a 50% reduction in term of balance (I slightly buffed duration to compensate a bit, not much since you don't want the penalty to last forever). I'm pretty sure it won't break the game this way (33% damages reduction is great, especially for self-inflicted damages, but is it that much greater that +20 Deflection and +20 all defenses ? It is only more reliable vs High Accuracy and stacks better with other buff - there are not many active buffs that reduce damages) and that it would be useful. I also expect Fighter to be able to tank even with some active charge, by the virtue of Unbending (might require a bit of CON to avoid spike).

We'll see how it goes, and if it requires further tweaking. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Shai Hulud]

16 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

It's technically doable, even rather easy. The issue is that it enables to use all active abilities on items equipped by your clones.

Which is broken for an "official" mod. But you could still tweak it yourself and rules out using active item abilities on your clones.

This order of magnitude, yes.

I'm actually thinking about +2 Zeal per downed ally with a cooldown of 30s, so the ability would mostly work as well as in vanilla for parties without many summons. 

You could. PoE2 is not hard to mod, I think. Consider it's my first mod ever and I'm no dev IRL.

You can give it a try by enabling exhortations on oneself. It's not very complicated using the many tutorials. It could even be a nice small mod on Nexus (I've not found this by quick research).

I've read the modding forum sticky threads and some others, and while I can follow most of the information in someone else's mod, the various GUIDs and sheer number of game data formats and where to look for them is kind of overwhelming. I downloaded noqn's Apotheosis tool and it looks very useful but still not sure where to start. Maybe I'll make a thread in modding forum once I figure out what exactly I'd like to mod. But for instance how do you know where to look or what to change in the gamedata to make summons tagged allies and targetable by these spells?

What I'd really like to do is improve the scripting interface to allow a lot more conditionals and actions, but this may be way over my head or even impossible. For instance, one should be able to check if a buff like borrowed instinct is active, rather than just casting it and having to guess a cooldown for how often it should be cast. Currently you can only really do this with abilities that give unique inspirations. One should be able to check exact resource values for all classes, which would allow many things like casting soul annihilation at arbitrary focus levels, or using blood sacrifice when you've spent X number of spells. Many many other things I've wanted to script but can't.

9 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Okay, since I want to release a new BPM version soon, I'll go with the following :

- 0.5/4s cast/recovery, 12s base duration, 1 discipline, 2,5 radius
- Take the Hit grants 33% less damages taken by the to allies in the AoE
- Take the Hit transfers stacking 33% more damages taken by the fighter for each protected ally (so +66% damages taken for 2 allies affected, +99% for 3 allies, etc...).

 

I think it's less volatile than a 50% reduction in term of balance (I slightly buffed duration to compensate a bit, not much since you don't want the penalty to last forever). I'm pretty sure it won't break the game this way (33% damages reduction is great, especially for self-inflicted damages, but is it that much greater that +20 Deflection and +20 all defenses ? It is only more reliable vs High Accuracy and stacks better with other buff - there are not many active buffs that reduce damages) and that it would be useful. I also expect Fighter to be able to tank even with some active charge, by the virtue of Unbending (might require a bit of CON to avoid spike).

We'll see how it goes, and if it requires further tweaking. 

Sounds good, looking forward to the release

BTW I've found a build that can do an ultimate style run in BPM (I hope), which was a huge challenge in itself. Going to see if I can do it with trial of iron off, then maybe do the real thing.

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

I've read the modding forum sticky threads and some others, and while I can follow most of the information in someone else's mod, the various GUIDs and sheer number of game data formats and where to look for them is kind of overwhelming. I downloaded noqn's Apotheosis tool and it looks very useful but still not sure where to start. Maybe I'll make a thread in modding forum once I figure out what exactly I'd like to mod. But for instance how do you know where to look or what to change in the gamedata to make summons tagged allies and targetable by these spells?

Experience, and a bit of forum help I guess. 

Basically the gamedata files are structured around objects that call each other using ID in UUID formats. UUID numbers can be generated from website (they are random enough to be unique). Each of the files have different categories of objects.

The 3 main ones (the ones that are basically always opened on my PC) are :

- abilities, with cost, link to description files, passive/active, link to attack and link to SELF INSTANT (0.5s activation isnt instant, but Savage Defiance is self instant) status and passive status

- Attacks with casting time, recovery, Pen/damages/range, bounce, Aoe, target, link to inflicted status. Used by most actions including non instant buff, healing, summons to set their number and nature, etc... 

- status which governs the properties of active and passive status such as stats buffs, healing/Dot values, tick period, duration

 

Special conditions are a bit split between the 3 files. 

The Type of summons is actually a Special property of the "attack that summons". Check the attack file with the name of the summons. 

Also there is a website that describes ALL parameters. It won't give you all the tricks but it helps. 

 

It isn't easy on the beginning. That's why I was suggesting to allow self exhortation, because I know how to do (you have to find and change 1 parameter per ability) and it is a good first step. 

2 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

What I'd really like to do is improve the scripting interface to allow a lot more conditionals and actions, but this may be way over my head or even impossible. For instance, one should be able to check if a buff like borrowed instinct is active, rather than just casting it and having to guess a cooldown for how often it should be cast. Currently you can only really do this with abilities that give unique inspirations. One should be able to check exact resource values for all classes, which would allow many things like casting soul annihilation at arbitrary focus levels, or using blood sacrifice when you've spent X number of spells. Many many other things I've wanted to script but can't.

I honnestly have no experience about scripts so I can't tell. 

2 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

 

 

[Shai Hulud]

This is probably an issue in vanilla, but I was doing Trial of the Naga with a monk and the bog oozes are immune to crush. Knowing this, I equipped Kapana Taga which does crush/slash. Bizarrely, hitting the oozes picks crush damage, which predictably does zero damage. So basically only way I had to damage them was dichotomous souls, spamming forbidden fist for zero damage to gen wounds. Dunno if fixable. I suspect this probably occurs with other weapons that do mixed damage types where one is immune but haven't seen it.

I'm guessing even though they're immune to crush, their listed armor rating for crush is lower than slash ? 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Elric Galad]

On 3/11/2023 at 9:20 AM, Shai Hulud said:

Really? The tactician sheet says "brilliant" gives +5 INT, +1 power levels, same as acute. Is this display wrong? Honestly haven't messed with trying to get brilliant in BPM because maintaining brilliant seems difficult now. Anyway my point was just perma-brilliant was OP but one chanter can regen zeal at about same rate without doing anything he wouldn't normally (at least how I had scripted the spiritualist solo).

Display only Bug confirmed (apparently for all instance of Brilliant this description may happen) but seems to be a Vanilla thing (cause it also appears in French. I haven't modified anything in French, modified stuff appears in English.

Anyway I won't correct it this time.

New version 2.5 has just been uploaded :

Deadfire Balance Polishing Mod at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com)

 

Feel free to test, especially SC Paladins and Rangers (and Fighters for Take the Hit)

You may be interested in @NoqnStandalone Seeker Slayer Survivor mod to try new builds :

S4 - Standalone Seeker Slayer Survivor at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com)

Edited March 12, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Shai Hulud]

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Display only Bug confirmed (apparently for all instance of Brilliant this description may happen) but seems to be a Vanilla thing (cause it also appears in French. I haven't modified anything in French, modified stuff appears in English.

Anyway I won't correct it this time.

New version 2.5 has just been uploaded :

Deadfire Balance Polishing Mod at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com)

 

Feel free to test, especially SC Paladins and Rangers (and Fighters for Take the Hit)

You may be interested in @NoqnStandalone Seeker Slayer Survivor mod to try new builds :

S4 - Standalone Seeker Slayer Survivor at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com)

Awesome, and awesome. I was just wondering about that because I needed a way to try the changeling fight with Vela in tow. She disappears when you use OpenCharacterCreation to make a character. Can probably spawn her back but don't know how.

I'm going to be out of town for about a week and away from my computer (yikes!) so I won't be able to test any of this for a bit even though I really want to. So if you haven't heard from me for a while, it's just because I haven't had the chance to play.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Elric Galad]

Yeah, Feedback would be appreciated. I'm slightly worried about having overbuffed bonded fury, although a mere 90s cooldown instead of 60s would be an easy fix. Would allow INT higher than 30 to be useful, and it would still be somewhat covered by going invisible with Shadowed Hunters in solo. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Shai Hulud]

On 3/15/2023 at 2:55 AM, Elric Galad said:

Yeah, Feedback would be appreciated. I'm slightly worried about having overbuffed bonded fury, although a mere 90s cooldown instead of 60s would be an easy fix. Would allow INT higher than 30 to be useful, and it would still be somewhat covered by going invisible with Shadowed Hunters in solo. 

I only had time to test about an hour and only the single class ranger. I am visiting relatives, hopefully their computer can handle POE2 and I can test more stuff later. 

I just fought Dorudugan and SC ranger can solo Dorudugan (with Abydon challenge off anyway) now. That in itself doesn't mean it's overpowered as I can solo Dorudugan with about 15 other builds (that I've tried). But...Bonded Fury IMO should not cost 0 given how good it is. With a potion of enlightenment and super high INT (27 or something) I was able to sustain Hardy Companion on animal health < 90%, recast every 32 s, Shadowed Hunters to keep intuitive up, and of course Bonded Fury. The 60s cooldown is not really necessary because you don't gain anything out of casting it repeatedly, do you? And the duration is over 60s with high INT. Even if the companion dies and you revive him, the buffs are still up (though counting down), so I'm not sure what the purpose of the cooldown is.

I need to test some simpler encounters to see if they are too easy now. I think it is probably okay, though Bonded Fury should probably cost 1 bond as I didn't even struggle to keep up these buffs. I thought I'd need to use the invisibility part of Shadowed Hunters to hide and refresh a couple bond with potions of enlightenment but I only needed to do that twice. Dorudugan went down after about 40m.

More later.

--

I really don't like the cooldown mechanic. It seems mostly pointless unless you have pretty low INT i guess, but I feel like making it cost 1 bond is a better solution (adjust resource proc to 20% to 30% if necessary). The scripting engine doesn't know how to handle cooldowns. It just keeps trying to cast the ability when it's in cooldown even if I put in a 60s delay between casts. Basically it breaks any script that uses it.

How would you get 30+ INT with a ranger? I had pretty much every buff (alchemical wits cauldron prostitute effigy etc), plus a +2 INT necklace and the INT was 27 I think. Could get to 30 with suboptimal pet, ring, and helmet choices. I guess in a party a chanter can cast set to their purpose.

Okay, answered my own question. High INT is also rewarded if ability costs 1 bond, plus you still get longer heal companion, shadowed hunters, stunning shots, etc. IMO it is a cleaner solution to make bonded fury cost 1 bond and adjust proc rate as necessary. Gives more risk/reward if you have to use a bond to activate and keep your pet alive to get resources back. Or I guess you could keep 0 bond and lower proc rate to like 10% though I don't like that as much...

Yet another alternative is make other abilities cost more but this is more complicated figuring out which ones to adjust, plus this would basically force use of bonded fury.

Haven't had chance to test more yet, just thought would elaborate on the cooldown.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Elric Galad]

On 3/15/2023 at 7:34 PM, Shai Hulud said:

I only had time to test about an hour and only the single class ranger. I am visiting relatives, hopefully their computer can handle POE2 and I can test more stuff later. 

I just fought Dorudugan and SC ranger can solo Dorudugan (with Abydon challenge off anyway) now. That in itself doesn't mean it's overpowered as I can solo Dorudugan with about 15 other builds (that I've tried). But...Bonded Fury IMO should not cost 0 given how good it is. With a potion of enlightenment and super high INT (27 or something) I was able to sustain Hardy Companion on animal health < 90%, recast every 32 s, Shadowed Hunters to keep intuitive up, and of course Bonded Fury. The 60s cooldown is not really necessary because you don't gain anything out of casting it repeatedly, do you? And the duration is over 60s with high INT. Even if the companion dies and you revive him, the buffs are still up (though counting down), so I'm not sure what the purpose of the cooldown is.

I need to test some simpler encounters to see if they are too easy now. I think it is probably okay, though Bonded Fury should probably cost 1 bond as I didn't even struggle to keep up these buffs. I thought I'd need to use the invisibility part of Shadowed Hunters to hide and refresh a couple bond with potions of enlightenment but I only needed to do that twice. Dorudugan went down after about 40m.

More later.

--

I really don't like the cooldown mechanic. It seems mostly pointless unless you have pretty low INT i guess, but I feel like making it cost 1 bond is a better solution (adjust resource proc to 20% to 30% if necessary). The scripting engine doesn't know how to handle cooldowns. It just keeps trying to cast the ability when it's in cooldown even if I put in a 60s delay between casts. Basically it breaks any script that uses it.

How would you get 30+ INT with a ranger? I had pretty much every buff (alchemical wits cauldron prostitute effigy etc), plus a +2 INT necklace and the INT was 27 I think. Could get to 30 with suboptimal pet, ring, and helmet choices. I guess in a party a chanter can cast set to their purpose.

Basically this, with a party

Or maybe drugs? 

On 3/15/2023 at 7:34 PM, Shai Hulud said:

Okay, answered my own question. High INT is also rewarded if ability costs 1 bond, plus you still get longer heal companion, shadowed hunters, stunning shots, etc. IMO it is a cleaner solution to make bonded fury cost 1 bond and adjust proc rate as necessary. Gives more risk/reward if you have to use a bond to activate and keep your pet alive to get resources back. Or I guess you could keep 0 bond and lower proc rate to like 10% though I don't like that as much...

That is what I was thinking. Lower proc to 10%. Initially plannned 15% on hit/crit only but implementation failed so I rounded up and added Grazes too. I basically rounded every thing up for ranger with this version

Since it is an ability to get back ressouces, it makes more sense to make it free. Ot it would involve complex calculation to check if beneficial. 

I will also put the cooldown to 90s (to reward high INT and PL ; spine of green thicket is somewhat of a decent choice for SC Ranger Now, especially as a caster stick before transitionning to ranged / backup crush damages. Works on Binding Roots too) 

Overall I might have gone a bit too far with 2.5 ranger buff. 

I might lower a bit heal/hardy companion to 10s and Vengeful Grief to 33% speed (48% with Nimble). 

On 3/15/2023 at 7:34 PM, Shai Hulud said:

Yet another alternative is make other abilities cost more but this is more complicated figuring out which ones to adjust, plus this would basically force use of bonded fury.

Haven't had chance to test more yet, just thought would elaborate on the cooldown.

Yeah, I didnt figure about script (I'm a Control freak that don't use script even if using FF12 gambit was a Smart move from Obsidian IMHO) but Cooldown mechanism has becomes somewhat of a base mechanic for BPM. I use it for "signature abilities" that deserve to be cast out of normal resource system. Implemented mostly for Spiritshift and Holy Radiance, but pet can be considered as signature for ranger too, so it fits my views. 

[Elric Galad]

Hi all,

I found an hilarious bug with 2.5.

Divine Retribution chance to get Zeal back based on Health (equal to percentage of Health Loss) also applies when knocked down.

So when Knocked Down (0% health) you gain exactly 1 Zeal every 12s.

What's even more funny is that you will always gain enough zeal to trigger Providence.

Basically, in "Balance" Polishing Mod v2.5, Single Class Paladin ALWAYS revives.

Expect an Hotfix quite soon  

[Shai Hulud]

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Basically this, with a party

Or maybe drugs? 

That is what I was thinking. Lower proc to 10%. Initially plannned 15% on hit/crit only but implementation failed so I rounded up and added Grazes too. I basically rounded every thing up for ranger with this version

Since it is an ability to get back ressouces, it makes more sense to make it free. Ot it would involve complex calculation to check if beneficial. 

It really isn't that complex. Did you give the animal companions dual wielding so they attack roughly the same? I mean the equation depends on enemy deflection, but I looked at Dorudugan previously and found what values you'd need for positive bond return, and if you want to return 1 bond per 60s or 2 or 3 or whatever it isn't hard to solve for the X% resource return.

I don't see Bonded Fury as an ability solely to get back resources. It's a pretty decent long duration buff on the animal companion. And if it costs 0 and returns on average (for example) 2 bond or costs 1 bond and returns on average 3 bond, the only difference in the implementation of the latter is you have to pay enough attention to not let yourself get to 0.

Honestly cooldowns in Deadfire are a bad mechanic, particularly on abilities where you don't benefit from casting repeatedly (like bonded fury). It's fine on passives like Divine Retribution but on active abilities...not a fan. Breaking scripts seems like a pretty serious side effect to me. Lots of people use them, and cooldowns on buffs are especially bad since these are the easiest thing to script (compared to say holy radiance, which I'd want to cast manually anyway).

But if you do go that way with the cooldowns, I'll just edit out the cooldown from the gamedata file since scripting is mandatory with magran's challenge, and even without scripting makes the game less tedious. 

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

I will also put the cooldown to 90s (to reward high INT and PL ; spine of green thicket is somewhat of a decent choice for SC Ranger Now, especially as a caster stick before transitionning to ranged / backup crush damages. Works on Binding Roots too) 

Are the pet talents tagged as beast? I never noticed if they were, though would make sense I guess, and Empowering Instinct would indeed be pretty good. Don't use Binding Roots much personally. 

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Overall I might have gone a bit too far with 2.5 ranger buff. 

I might lower a bit heal/hardy companion to 10s and Vengeful Grief to 33% speed (48% with Nimble). 

Yeah, I didnt figure about script (I'm a Control freak that don't use script even if using FF12 gambit was a Smart move from Obsidian IMHO) but Cooldown mechanism has becomes somewhat of a base mechanic for BPM. I use it for "signature abilities" that deserve to be cast out of normal resource system. Implemented mostly for Spiritshift and Holy Radiance, but pet can be considered as signature for ranger too, so it fits my views. 

I mean, probably a *little* too strong overall in 2.5, though I had to have Hardy + Bonded + Shadowed up basically always and the boar was still killed several times in Dorudugan fight. My sense of the class being too strong is mostly about resource management being a little too easy. Heal Companion healing stacking with Shadowed Hunters is also a lot. In the previous version of BPM there weren't enough resources to have even heal up all the time. 

Still, I don't think 2.5 ranger is stronger than a spiritualist or SC monk or transcendent or ravager or a dozen other builds, and pretty similar to like a devoted/ranger or savage (in previous BPM). It doesn't seem broken, just needs some fine tuning maybe. 

Didn't get a chance to test Vengeful Grief really, I always ressed the pet when he went down. 48% is a pretty huge speed buff though. 

Basically...I wouldn't overcorrect in this hotfix based on the very limited testing window so far. Though the Divine Retribution on knockdown thing sounds pretty busted

I'd like to test the ranger in some other fights, like maybe SSS content, which is challenging but not to the extent of megabosses. It is downloading on my parents' computer, which I *think* will run it, but the internet is SLOW so I won't know for several hours minimum. 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Elric Galad]

2 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

It really isn't that complex. Did you give the animal companions dual wielding so they attack roughly the same? I mean the equation depends on enemy deflection, but I looked at Dorudugan previously and found what values you'd need for positive bond return, and if you want to return 1 bond per 60s or 2 or 3 or whatever it isn't hard to solve for the X% resource return.

I don't see Bonded Fury as an ability solely to get back resources. It's a pretty decent long duration buff on the animal companion. And if it costs 0 and returns on average (for example) 2 bond or costs 1 bond and returns on average 3 bond, the only difference in the implementation of the latter is you have to pay enough attention to not let yourself get to 0.

Not that complex, but depends on foes, type of pets, etc... It is complex fur ultimate users, less for us that can discuss it quietly here.

That said, there is quite a big major reason to put a cooldown on a free/cheap Bonded Fury, and that's afflictions. Bonded Fury cures any affliction. So it could be used to cure anything. At 2 Bonds, it isn't that big of an issue, but even at 1 Bond and granted that it also refresh duration, it would be still quite a powerful positive side effect of an already powerful ability.

 

All Ranger Active Abilities involving pet (including Ghostheart summons) are tagged beast. Not Play Dead and Takedown since they are not ranger's but pet's abilities and won't benefit from any bonus PL (since even a Good Boy Wolf can't carry Spine of Green Thicket in his mouth).

 

By the way about Deadly Surprise and Takedown : Pet are ALWAYS Single Classed, so their PL always scales as Single Class would do. The effect is super marginal in Vanilla (only affects Takedown PL multiplicative attack damages) but applies in BPM to pet inflicted statuses.

[Shai Hulud]

22 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Not that complex, but depends on foes, type of pets, etc... It is complex fur ultimate users, less for us that can discuss it quietly here.

That said, there is quite a big major reason to put a cooldown on a free/cheap Bonded Fury, and that's afflictions. Bonded Fury cures any affliction. So it could be used to cure anything. At 2 Bonds, it isn't that big of an issue, but even at 1 Bond and granted that it also refresh duration, it would be still quite a powerful positive side effect of an already powerful ability.

 

All Ranger Active Abilities involving pet (including Ghostheart summons) are tagged beast. Not Play Dead and Takedown since they are not ranger's but pet's abilities and won't benefit from any bonus PL (since even a Good Boy Wolf can't carry Spine of Green Thicket in his mouth).

 

By the way about Deadly Surprise and Takedown : Pet are ALWAYS Single Classed, so their PL always scales as Single Class would do. The effect is super marginal in Vanilla (only affects Takedown PL multiplicative attack damages) but applies in BPM to pet inflicted statuses.

If my pet is afflicted by something bad enough to warrant spending 1 bond he's usually dead shortly after

I mean I guess I can see how that's an issue at 0 bond (albeit a minor one IMO), though to me that just seems more reason to make it cost 1 so it isn't spammable. And however you determine bond regeneration, whether complex or not, can't you just state in the description "This should on average return X bond over Y seconds" to simplify for the end user? Doesn't seem any more opaque to me than "15% on hit" or whatever (definitely less confusing than BPM Wall of Flashing Steel description). 

In vanilla Bonded Fury has this same effect of instantly removing pet afflictions at 1 bond but nobody said that was powerful, it seemed a pretty weak ability honestly. This aspect is minor compared to the bond regen. 

Is there no solution that doesn't break scripts, aside from cooldowns? I imagine Bonded Fury is even called in the standard ranger scripts (I haven't actually checked, can't atm). I don't know why but even with sufficiently long cooldown on the scripted ability, the ranger just sits there trying to cast it over and over. Like I can tell him to cast when the dex inspiration runs out, which happens after the ability ends (like 67s on my test ranger) and after the first cast she still keeps trying to cast it but can't since it's greyed out and it just hangs the AI completely.

I acknowledge your point (At 0 bond anyway) but I think breaking AI is a worse side effect than easy removal of pet afflictions.

That's interesting about deadly surprise and takedown.

[Elric Galad]

8 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

If my pet is afflicted by something bad enough to warrant spending 1 bond he's usually dead shortly after

I mean I guess I can see how that's an issue at 0 bond (albeit a minor one IMO), though to me that just seems more reason to make it cost 1 so it isn't spammable. And however you determine bond regeneration, whether complex or not, can't you just state in the description "This should on average return X bond over Y seconds" to simplify for the end user?

It depends too much on foes Deflection, pet own buff, pet category (cat and stag with intuitive...) to give an unique number.

INT has especially big impact. Without Bond cost, the Bond gain is proportional to INT. With Bond cost, it is even worse since the first Bond gain with just put you back at zero gain.

8 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Doesn't seem any more opaque to me than "15% on hit" or whatever (definitely less confusing than BPM Wall of Flashing Steel description). 

The ugly things that one has to do just to prevent multi-hit weapons from being an issue... Could have put a cooldown like for Divine Retribution Zeal gain.

8 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

In vanilla Bonded Fury has this same effect of instantly removing pet afflictions at 1 bond but nobody said that was powerful, it seemed a pretty weak ability honestly.

Because it costs 3 Bonds in Vanilla  

8 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

This aspect is minor compared to the bond regen. 

Is there no solution that doesn't break scripts, aside from cooldowns? I imagine Bonded Fury is even called in the standard ranger scripts (I haven't actually checked, can't atm).

Actually Bonded Fury was added later so no foes in the base game has Bonded Fury. I haven't check the DLC.

8 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

I don't know why but even with sufficiently long cooldown on the scripted ability, the ranger just sits there trying to cast it over and over. Like I can tell him to cast when the dex inspiration runs out, which happens after the ability ends (like 67s on my test ranger) and after the first cast she still keeps trying to cast it but can't since it's greyed out and it just hangs the AI completely.

I acknowledge your point (At 0 bond anyway) but I think breaking AI is a worse side effect than easy removal of pet afflictions.

It's complicated because it won't help with Holy Radiance and Spiritshift use Cooldown too, and I can't think about an alternative for them.

At least it means that I should avoid using Cooldown from now on. 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

Version 2.5.1 just released to tweak down a couple of overtuned ranger stuff, correct the immortal Paladin bug and make Wall of Flashing Steel Guile gain less confusing.

Deadfire Balance Polishing Mod at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com)

[Okkes]

5 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Version 2.5.1 just released to tweak down a couple of overtuned ranger stuff, correct the immortal Paladin bug and make Wall of Flashing Steel Guile gain less confusing.

Deadfire Balance Polishing Mod at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com)

Hi thanks for all the efforts, i found a minor mistake with the nerfed weapons, you listed Willbreaker but i think you meant Saru-sichr. It's not that important actually everybody can understand that.

[Elric Galad]

5 hours ago, Okkes said:

Hi thanks for all the efforts, i found a minor mistake with the nerfed weapons, you listed Willbreaker but i think you meant Saru-sichr. It's not that important actually everybody can understand that.

Indeed. Corrected.

[Shai Hulud]

On 3/21/2023 at 4:40 PM, Elric Galad said:

Version 2.5.1 just released to tweak down a couple of overtuned ranger stuff, correct the immortal Paladin bug and make Wall of Flashing Steel Guile gain less confusing.

Deadfire Balance Polishing Mod at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com)

Back at home and my computer and I playtested the ranger some more and compared to 2.5. I don't actually think the SC ranger is overpowered, even in 2.5. Resources came a little too easily in 2.5, seems better now. In some types of fights (like Dorudugan) it does extremely well because you can maintain buffs and resource regen. With bonded fury, heal companion, revive companion, and shadowed hunters, combined with a high DPS bow like Essence Interrupter and +accuracy +damage abilities and items, the build is top tier at single target damage. It's not much different in 2.5.1 except because of the weird Bonded Fury cooldown it becomes necessary to spend more time invisible using Shadowed Hunters. A 90s cooldown on an ability that with maximum int and a potion of ascension lasts 60s is just weird IMO. Even with 35 INT I tested it as lasting 73s IIRC. 

Also tried some other types of fights like in SSS and I got absolutely murdered in some of them. The animal's ability to tank is improved significantly but even in 2.5 he can't tank the trial of the naga for instance. Which is fine. There are few builds that can facetank everything. Just means we'd benefit more from kiting here. 

I still find the 0 bond 90s cooldown overly confusing for Bonded Fury. I'm probably not the only one. It seems perfectly acceptable to cost 1 bond to prevent spamming, and increase the resource proc rate to compensate. I plan to do this anyway if you leave it as is, though I'll have to fiddle with the values a bit to get it right. But overall I find the SC ranger interesting and believe it's now competitive to some of the stronger ranger multiclass builds like seer, wanderer, savage, and hunter. I have not tested the SC fighter or paladin since 2.5 changes. 

I am also starting my attempt of an ultimate style run with this mod. I will record and put up video, but depending how busy I am it could be a while before it's finished. 

[Shai Hulud]

Also, I found what I assume is a bug with transcendent suffering and monastic unarmed training. The effects stack. This is true in vanilla and BPM. Effects are slightly more severe with BPM since penetration is calculated as 0 base + 11 TS + 11 MUT vs 7 base + 4 + 4. Accuracy and damage stacks seem the same. 

It doesn't naturally happen in vanilla only because having transcendent suffering tends to prevent the monastic unarmed training button being available on level-up. Not a big deal as you can just not take monastic unarmed when you have transcendent suffering. And I really like the option of having it on the classes that didn't already, so I hope there's a solution besides removing it, and if there isn't, my vote would be "let them stack" 

[Elric Galad]

10 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Also, I found what I assume is a bug with transcendent suffering and monastic unarmed training. The effects stack. This is true in vanilla and BPM. Effects are slightly more severe with BPM since penetration is calculated as 0 base + 11 TS + 11 MUT vs 7 base + 4 + 4. Accuracy and damage stacks seem the same. 

It doesn't naturally happen in vanilla only because having transcendent suffering tends to prevent the monastic unarmed training button being available on level-up. Not a big deal as you can just not take monastic unarmed when you have transcendent suffering. And I really like the option of having it on the classes that didn't already, so I hope there's a solution besides removing it, and if there isn't, my vote would be "let them stack" 

So  you're telling me that a Wiz / Monk is now able to gain Monastic Unarmed Training and Trasncedant Suffering through normal levelling ?

Ahem, I should check this one, I bet there's a way to prevent it from happening.

OK, basically it is becasue I didn't include the "not Monk" condition in the added ability. It is easy to correct.

 

13 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

A 90s cooldown on an ability that with maximum int and a potion of ascension lasts 60s is just weird IMO. Even with 35 INT I tested it as lasting 73s IIRC. 

That's part of the point. With a lower cooldown, PL/INT won't get any benefit !

 

13 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

I still find the 0 bond 90s cooldown overly confusing for Bonded Fury. I'm probably not the only one. It seems perfectly acceptable to cost 1 bond to prevent spamming, and increase the resource proc rate to compensate. I plan to do this anyway if you leave it as is, though I'll have to fiddle with the values a bit to get it right. But overall I find the SC ranger interesting and believe it's now competitive to some of the stronger ranger multiclass builds like seer, wanderer, savage, and hunter. I have not tested the SC fighter or paladin since 2.5 changes. 

I thought about it again for 2.5.1, but until now, I haven't found an alternative way that fits what I was trying to do (allow a "clean" way to gain bond)

If at some point I get an idea that fully satisfies my views, I will consider removing the cooldown.

 

13 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

I am also starting my attempt of an ultimate style run with this mod. I will record and put up video, but depending how busy I am it could be a while before it's finished. 

Hey good luck !

Edited March 27, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

Okay, for Bonded Fury, an alternative idea would be to :

- Set it back to 2 Bonds with no cooldown
- Set the Bond regen mechanism as lasting till the end of battle. So once you cast it once, you won't have to think a lot about whether casting it again will result in a big Bond gain, marginal gain or loss

I would consider being a bit more generous with other parameters (inspirations set to last 45s instead of 30s, 15% Bond gain when dealing damages) to compensate for the upfront cost. Better than 1 Bond cost in my book to avoid a "semi immunity" to Afflictions.

Basically it would be "2 abilities for 1 Point", an active to reasonably buff your pet and a passive to regen bond. Both would fill balanced as individual abilities, so it is a bit generous to get both for 1 point, but you still have the constraint of casting it once to get the passive effect.

 

I would aslo set back Healing Chain to 2 Zeal with no Cooldown, with a minor buff to 12 health per tick.

I had the concern that even at 2 Zeals it could be too strong in favorable conditions (targetting only 2 narrow targets) granted the potential infinite Zeal of SC Paladin, but this issue was solved by Divine retribution rework. The recent Jump range reduction was also made to allow easier focusing.

The ability isn't easy to use, but giving 300 base health to 2 targets for 2 Zeals feel quite good to me.

 

This would completely eliminate Cooldowns, except for Spiritshift and Holy Radiance since I have no good alternative for them (and Cooldown is a strict improvement from once per encounter anyway).

 

Since I'm buffing Bonded Fury to 45s, I plan to do the same with the sorta similar Inspired Discipline. It feels sometimes hard to optimize since Tier 1 inspirations feel a bit redundant with some Fighter self buff or Party buff. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Elric Galad