Help with a Dual Wield Cipher? (PoE 1) please?

[Dibujor]

Hi there,

 

Bought both games on their respective launches but ended up not having time to play them (well, steam says I have 12 hrs on PoE1) but now I have some time on my hands and plan to play both of them porting the save. I'll do a run of Kingmaker after that if time allows.

Now, the games are not current anymore and even though I've read till my eyes burn, most of the builds are heavily outdated, at least for what I want to play, Back in the day when I first played, blunderbuss ciphers were all the rage. So I'd like to ask for some help with a more or less detailed build and recommended party for what I want.

I plan on playing on normal with story companions. I'm not a competitive player, don't want it super easy but don't want to bang my head on the wall just for beating the game on hard or PoTD. I want to enjoy the story.

I want to play a Dual Wield Melee Cipher, because it's the unique class to this game and the most similar to a Battlecaster. I have always liked the idea of casting magic while slashing with a sword. Since I also like dual wielding and in this game there's no need to have an empty hand to cast like Geralt (or Magus on Kingmaker)....

I'm not about minmaxing so, as long as I don't die terribly on each fight during all the game I prefer to have fun and roleplay my character instead of searching for the most OP

Can this be done? Can you help me please? 

 

Thanks!

 

[Boeroer]

Hi,

for a dual wielding cipher I would recommend either sabres (with clubs as backup weapons) or war hammers (no need for backup).

There are some nice unique sabres in the game, war hammers as well. Sabres have the advantage of the highest dmg per hit (of a one-handed weapon) but they only deal slash damage which can be a little tedious against enemies who are resistant (or even immune) to slash damage. Hence the backup weapons (here: clubs).

War hammers also have nice uniques. They deal a little less dmg per hit compared to sabres, but they can deal pierce or crush damage (the better will get picked automatically for every attack) which can be a decent dps advantage if you don't like to switch your weapon sets.

Light weapons like daggers, flails etc. can in theory yield even higher dps than sabres and war hammers etc., but they struggle to penetrate thick armor especially in the early game. That takes out the fun for most players who don't want to wait forever until their build idea works out well.

Battle axes (swords as backup) would also be a viable alternative.  I would even consider spears nd maces but it just looks too silly to wield two of them...

In terms of "style" I'd say sabre is the most pleasing choice, followed by battle axes. Two war hammers can already look a bit clunky.

A dual wielding cipher will be a bit squishy in the early game - so make sure to stay in stealth and first let all enemies engage your tank (or other more sturdy frontliners) and only then attack from the flanks. Don't run into the crowd and don't engage first.

Another way to be safe is to use hard disables (like Mental Binding for example) and then attack.  Or do both of course.

Don't go without any armor and don't drop Constitution and Resolve too far as beginner. Enemies' AI looks out for weak targets (like low DR values, low deflection and low endurance/health), depending on the enemy. So if you present your melee cipher as soft target he will get attacked a lot more as if he's a bit more sturdy. You buy this increased sturdyness (which not only lets you last longer if attacked but also demotivated attackers from picking you) with a bit less damage output - but remember that a dead characters' dps output is always 0.  

 

[Dibujor]

Hi Boeroer, thanks!

 

Yeah, I had read (from your posts  ) about sabers being good. I vaguely remember way back when, that one of the things I most liked about PoE was that they really wanted to make DW useful. In most other games is something you know will make you pretty suboptimal compared to board and blade or 2H, if you want to DW 1H weapons, unless you're going daggers which I don't really like.

I really only considered two "sword type" weapons, any other 2 combo looks dumb imho  , well, axes is not bad though ... for a dwarven fighter. Although since you mention it, I'll try to get warhammers or clubs as backup for those slash immune enemies. I won't mind having to use a hammer and board for some specific fights if need be.

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

A dual wielding cipher will be a bit squishy in the early game - so make sure to stay in stealth and first let all enemies engage your tank (or other more sturdy frontliners) and only then attack from the flanks. Don't run into the crowd and don't engage first.

Yep, I don't mind being squishier in the early game. I know I'll have to micro my character a bit more than if I was making a paladin or a ranger (that either go first or remain in the back), but I don't mind it. I was also thinking of opening with a range weapon while my tank goes in, to then go flank afterwards. At least in the early game. In that regard, do you have a recommended party composition? which companions would be best for a cipher of this type? In the end I normally use the companions I like lore wise that I think make sense for how I RP my character but it would be good to know what would be the most synergizing party comp. Same reason why I plan on doing a human or elf, orlans, godlikes and aumuas look godawful ugly to me)

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Another way to be safe is to use hard disables (like Mental Binding for example) and then attack.  Or do both of course.

Yeah, that's another thing I've seen repeated for ciphers, about Mental Binding being really good, although not knowing anything about the game, it doesn't mean much to me... yet

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Don't go without any armor and don't drop Constitution and Resolve too far as beginner. Enemies' AI looks out for weak targets (like low DR values, low deflection and low endurance/health), depending on the enemy. So if you present your melee cipher as soft target he will get attacked a lot more as if he's a bit more sturdy. You buy this increased sturdyness (which not only lets you last longer if attacked but also demotivated attackers from picking you) with a bit less damage output 

Haha, I'll use armor indeed. Are ciphers limited to light/medium armor or can they use plate? (is it even recommended for them to use plate?) since they are psyonichs and not mages I'm not really sure how that works or if it goes against dual wielding (than in most games tends to be based on DEX)

In that vein... I wouldn't ask for a complete per level build since that is too much to ask. But could you help me with initial stat distribution, what to raise from then on, which talents/skills are important, etc? even a general idea would be wonderful since, as I said, for every intent and purpose, I know nothing about the game and how it works (like I wouldn't know how much is too much or too little resolve, con, etc). If I manage to understand it could be a new build up in the list since the ones that are there are pretty outdated (and there's no DW build I think)

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

but remember that a dead characters' dps output is always 0.  

Wise words my friend, wise words indeed  

 

THANK YOU!

Edited March 13, 2020 by Dibujor

[Boeroer]

Party composition: it's okay to go with the companions you like. Cipher profits from a high-defense Paladin in the late game as soon as the cipher can cast Defensive Mindweb. Priest makes every party better in general.

But I also pick companions based on whom I like - even on Path of the Damned difficulty. Companions, classes and the game are pretty ballabced so there is no trap choice when it comes to party composition.

Armor/weapons/items: no class ist restricted from wearing anything in PoE. You can wear plate or great swords etc. as a cipher or as a wizard or druid. The drawbacks (being slow) are the same for every class. Some classes have special talents/abilites for certain item groups though (e.g. Fighters have Armored Grace which reduces the slowdown from armor a bit and so on).
Dual wielding lets you attack really fast (ot to be more precise: to shorten your recovery a lot) and thus it's actually rel. easy to reach zero recovery (aka attack like a sewing machine) in fat plate armor. For attack speed testing check this out:

https://naijaro.github.io/poe-speed-calculator/

Ciphers have Time Parasite which is very powerful and it's easy to reach 0 recovery with it and dual wielding in thick armor.

Stats can't be raised on level up. They are kind of fixed (except you can get some minor improvements from story talents). Items and buffs will raise them for you.

I think for a first-time player I would do a rel., balanced apporach like so:

MIG: 15
CON: 10
DEX: 15
PER: 15
INT: 15
RES: 08 

This is with race and background points.

You can easily shift some points up and down without braking anything. Attributes don't have tremendous impact on your performance like they have in some other systems. Talents and abilites (includes spells) are a lot more important.

In PoE CC effects are very strong and accuracy is very important. If you can hit with a CC effect like Blind or even Charm the fights will be a lot easier. In order to do that you need to hit and for that you need accuracy. So take every opportunity to get more ACC and pick some strong CC abilites like Whisper of Treason, Mental Binding. One of the strongest cipher spells in a party is Amplified Wave in my opinion.

 

[Dibujor]

Thanks @Boeroer !

I guess I have enough info to finally start my playthrough

I may come around again if I have doubts along the way

 

THANKS!

[mr_raider]

Has anyone done the math on dual wield sabres, vs dual wielding stillettos, vs two speed weapons like sword of daenysis plus March dagger?

It would seem the second two options would benefit from flick of the wrist. Plus the speed enchants 20% would allow you to wear heavier armor, or forego the gloves of Swift action. They are not a reliable drop anyway.

[Boeroer]

For the speed calculations you can use this:
https://naijaro.github.io/poe-speed-calculator/

With the frames you can then calculate the base dps of the weapons. 

Sword of Daenysis + March Steel Dagger: with Time Parasite and Durgan Steel you can wear plate armor and leave on Vulnerable Attack and still have 0 recovery - without Gauntlets of Swift Action.