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Dual wield vs any 2h style style in turn mode


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#1
Majber

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What style do you think have most dps in turn based mode and with abilities ( 2h style for +15% damage and Dual wield style for -15% initiative)

 

Anyone good with math?



#2
djinnxy

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using base sabre and greatsword as an example with both feats on my character (all other buffs being equalized) this is what I get.

 

Sabre

5.4 initiative

6.2 both added weapon initiative

 

11.6 total intiative

 

total average damage of both per strike is 47

 

47/11.6 = 4.1 dps

 

 

greatsword

 

5.4 initiative

3.6 weapon initiative

 

9 total initiative

 

average damage per strike is 28

 

28/9 = 3.1 dps

 

I'll use another 2 examples quarterstaff and sword. 

 

Base quarterstaff is exactly the same as base greatsword 3.1 dps

 

Sword average damage is 39 with the same weapon initiative.

 

39/11.6 = 3.4 dps

 

 

breaking that down with the given stats of the character

 

sword = 3.4 dps

greatword = 3.1 dps

quarterstaff = 3.1 dps

sabre = 4.1 dps

 

 

There's a lot of gear etc. that will change those numbers and keep in mind that's on a character fully geared and leveled up. There's no gear on it specific to any weapon or weapon style. Without looking at weapon effects, armor, or immunities sabres look pretty good. Initiative is figured in seconds and one round 6 seconds. When you are figuring per round effects you need to be mindful of the total initiative of the weapon initiative and initiative. With 2 sabres it is 11.6 seconds. That means if you're a rogue and are relying on an affliction hit for damage on your next turn it better last 2 rounds to get a hit vs. afllicted. 

 

I'll throw in one more. I'll do rapier vs. pike.

 

The pike is exactly the same dps as the other 2 handers above

 

rapier is 4.6 total weapon initiative + 5.4 initiative = 10 total initiative

 

29 average dmg/10 = 2.9 dps 

 

rapier = 2.9 dps however that is not figuring in what the added accuracy of the weapon would give you for extra hits. you'd have to do that based on your total accuracy vs each mob's deflection and then figure in the penetration vs armor. Once you have that you'd also have to figure in any bonus graze to hit or hit to crit etc. etc.

 

For reference I'll do the greatsword with modal on. Keep in mind that you lose 10 accuracy. You also need to keep in mind that you have 2 damage types to overcome armor vs. the sabres.

 

The average damage is 35 and the total initiative is the same as above 9.

 

35/9 = 3.9 dps

 

Compare that to the sabres with the added 2 penetration.

 

Total initiative 14.6 with the same 47 damage as above

 

47/14.6 = 3.2 dps

 

The greatsword here with modal vs. the sabre with modal is going to be the king of the trash mobs. Sabres will hold the edge against higher armor rating. To be fair I'll do estoc with modal.

At the sizable reduction of 15 deflection, but 3 more penetration than sabre with modal.

 24.5 average damage

The same total initiative as the previously mentioned two handers.

 

24.5/9 = 2.7 dps

 

A bit less than dual sabre, but if you are up against a heavy slash/pierce armored mob the estoc will have an edge.

 

Hope that helps. Correct me if my math is wrong thanks.


Edited by djinnxy, 12 February 2019 - 01:10 PM.


#3
mzum

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using base sabre and greatsword as an example with both feats on my character (all other buffs being equalized) this is what I get.

 

Sabre

5.4 initiative

6.2 both added weapon initiative

 

11.6 total intiative

 

total average damage of both per strike is 47

 

47/11.6 = 4.1 dps

 

 

 

Why are you measuring in DPS for turn based?

 

Initiative only appears to matter if you want to move BEFORE another character in combat. There doesn't appear to be any other benefit.

 

@OP:

I'm finishing up a PoTD TB playthrough right now - I found big 2-handers to be my favorites for pure Damage Per Round.

 

Anecdotally, there wasn't significant difference. Upgraded gear, penetration, accuracy, and AOE abilities played more of a role than weapon style.



#4
djinnxy

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Why are you measuring in DPS for turn based?

 

Initiative only appears to matter if you want to move BEFORE another character in combat. There doesn't appear to be any other benefit.

 

 

 

 

As stated above rounds translates into 6 seconds. As far as base weapon damage rounds does not matter at all. The per round damage ticks matter per round. What matters for weapons is initiative which is figured in seconds. An example of the 2 in combo would be you cast a spell that persists that does 6 damage per round ( 1 damage per second. )

If you add that to the 4.1 dps you do with weapons that's 5.1 dps. This isn't dnd where you gain bonus weapon attacks on your turn as you level. It's entirely on initiative which is in seconds.

 

Also stated above that's strictly dps. That's assuming a hit ratio of 1 which is accuracy vs. deflection unless you have the barbarian ability for fortitude if it's lower. That's also not figuring in penetration vs armor. They are mentioned. Simply put sabres will outperform most things. In the odd case you can't hit vs deflection then an accurate weapon will do better. In a few cases even on potd upscale ( I say few because 95% or more are trash mobs ) The added penetration of a 2 hander over 9 pen will work better than sabres. There are numerous mobs with high slash armor. To streamline your ability points spent you're farther ahead taking dual wield with sabres and hammers to a certain point. Of course your stats and gear will change how much you hit/penetrate/damage.  

 

Edit: tldr: initiative has nothing to do with attacks per round. It is simply in seconds. If your total initiative (+seconds assuming it is a spell) are half of the enemies initiative you will attack 2 times to their 1.


Edited by djinnxy, 12 February 2019 - 02:38 PM.


#5
mzum

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Edit: tldr: initiative has nothing to do with attacks per round. It is simply in seconds. If your total initiative (+seconds assuming it is a spell) are half of the enemies initiative you will attack 2 times to their 1.

 

 

Are you saying that I can act twice in a round?

Or that if my initiative is low enough I can act twice?

Or at certain initiative break points relative to an enemy, my weapon attacks can fire twice?

 

I haven't seen any of the above. All of my testing showed each participant acting once per round.

I'll take a look later tonight to confirm.

 

Edit:

I think you're making a logical mistake - Abilities and durations use a "6 seconds = 1 Round" conversion. However, each character acts in a round, regardless of what their initiative is. I have characters acting on Initiative 9 or 10 all the time, and enemies acting after that. I have not witnessed any combatants acting twice in a round, or repeat attacks.

 

Your actions on the current turn determine your initiative on the following round (there may be some grey area here). If all of the above is true,  DPS conversions don't make much sense talking about Turn-based.

  • You can't gain extra actions via low initiative.
  • I don't know of any abilities that allow you to act AGAIN in combat. Ex: I believe Crushing Blow on the Barbarian moves you to Initiative 0 on the next round.
  • Rounds can have a long initiative list... as stated, my current MC acts on Ini 9 regularly.

Edited by mzum, 12 February 2019 - 04:01 PM.


#6
Taudis

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Just finished a TB run and my rule of thumb was "Added Damage=Dual Wield". Rogues, Paladins with FoD, etc. should probably dual wield.

 

Similarly classes that use lots of Primary Attacks should go two-handed. Obviously a Mule Kick Fighter wants One Big Hit.

 

I don't actually think Two-Weapon Style is worth the ability point in Turn Based. If you're only trying to do DPR with weapon attacks, you don't need the initiative boost. If you're applying afflictions with weapon attacks, those afflictions effectively cover the initiative boost.






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