Fascism and the Sith

[JediMasterRevan]

I was wondering is Fascism and Sith rule are basically the same? If it is then did Lucas base the way the sith government runs on Hitler and Mussolini in world War 2 or is it just my imagination.

[Gorth]

Found the following description of fascism as an ideology by by Matthew N. Lyons:

 

Fascism is a form of extreme right-wing ideology that celebrates the nation or the race as an organic community transcending all other loyalties. It emphasizes a myth of national or racial rebirth after a period of decline or destruction. To this end, fascism calls for a "spiritual revolution" against signs of moral decay such as individualism and materialism, and seeks to purge "alien" forces and groups that threaten the organic community. Fascism tends to celebrate masculinity, youth, mystical unity, and the regenerative power of violence. Often, but not always, it promotes racial superiority doctrines, ethnic persecution, imperialist expansion, and genocide. At the same time, fascists may embrace a form of internationalism based on either racial or ideological solidarity across national boundaries. Usually fascism espouses open male supremacy, though sometimes it may also promote female solidarity and new opportunities for women of the privileged nation or race.

 

Fascism's approach to politics is both populist--in that it seeks to activate "the people" as a whole against perceived oppressors or enemies--and elitist--in that it treats the people's will as embodied in a select group, or often one supreme leader, from whom authority proceeds downward. Fascism seeks to organize a cadre-led mass movement in a drive to seize state power. It seeks to forcibly subordinate all spheres of society to its ideological vision of organic community, usually through a totalitarian state. Both as a movement and a regime, fascism uses mass organizations as a system of integration and control, and uses organized violence to suppress opposition, although the scale of violence varies widely.

 

Fascism is hostile to Marxism, liberalism, and conservatism, yet it borrows concepts and practices from all three. Fascism rejects the principles of class struggle and workers' internationalism as threats to national or racial unity, yet it often exploits real grievances against capitalists and landowners through ethnic scapegoating or radical-sounding conspiracy theories. Fascism rejects the liberal doctrines of individual autonomy and rights, political pluralism, and representative government, yet it advocates broad popular participation in politics and may use parliamentary channels in its drive to power. Its vision of a "new order" clashes with the conservative attachment to tradition-based institutions and hierarchies, yet fascism often romanticizes the past as inspiration for national rebirth.

 

Fascism has a complex relationship with established elites and the non-fascist right. It is never a mere puppet of the ruling class, but an autonomous movement with its own social base. In practice, fascism defends capitalism against instability and the left, but also pursues an agenda that sometimes clashes with capitalist interests in significant ways. There has been much cooperation, competition, and interaction between fascism and other sections of the right, producing various hybrid movements and regimes.

 

---

If that applies to the Sith, not really sure. Parts of it perhaps.

[JediMasterRevan]

Most of it applies to the Sith.

[Drakron]

The Sith are more a dictatorship that fascism.

 

As you can see the Sith respect power, they dont care about race (Palpatine uses racism but at no point do we see Palpatine as racist) or anything else about someone expect how powerful he is.

 

Its dificult to break down the Sith idiology, the basic concept appears to be "the law of the jungle" were the strong (read powerful) sould rule over the weak.

 

Even if the Sith do share the "leader" leader with fascism many idiologies also uses the leader figure (maoism for exampe) and in the Sith is simply the "Alpha" of pack

[Yoda Tokare]

Imperialism+Facism=Sith,perhaps.

[JediMasterRevan]

So you think that the Sith follow a policy more like Social Darwinism than Fascism? fascism is a form of a dictatorship.

[Gorth]

Imperialism+Facism=Sith,perhaps.

Ehhh... How did you arrive at that conclusion ?

 

[Gorth]

So you think that the Sith follow a policy more like Social Darwinism than Fascism? fascism is a form of a dictatorship.

Social Darwinism ?

 

Probably a very good description of the Sith.

[Retnuh]

"Social Darwinism", an idea which holds that social policy should allow the weak and unfit to fail and die, and that this is not only good policy but morally right. I agree that this plays a large part in the Sith idea. Fascism also comes to play. It's hard to single this into one complete idea. The Sith are obviously very structured and have one shared ideal goal in mind.

[Adria Teksuni]

Lucas has said that he did come up with the basic idea for the Sith from the Third Reich.

[Drakron]

Too bad Lucas made the Galatic Empire and not the Sith ...

 

Getting your facts confused XBoxer?

[Adria Teksuni]

Hmmm...I don't think so. Could be, but I'm relatively sure he was talking about the Sith, and not the Galactic Empire, as he had input into the EU that created the Sith.

[Draxle]

Drakron, you silly person!

 

George Lucas made EVERYTHING. He planned all of these things... the Sith, the Jedi, the Mandalorians, Darth Revan, Episode I... he had this all planned from the very start of Star Wars back the good ol' 70's.

 

</sarcasm>

 

On a more serious note, I'm personally going to go with the idea that the Sith are more a composite of several structures including, but not limited to, Social Darwinism, Fascism, and a dictatorship. A theocracy might also work, since the Dark Side of the Force essentially dictates what the Sith do.

[Drakron]

OH MY GOD GEORGE LUCAS MADE DISCO !!!

 

[/sacarm]

 

I agree, the Sith organization is confusing and the fact Lucas ignored the Sith as descrived on the EU only added to the confusion, its hard to talk of the Sith Empire, the various Sith cults (Kun, etc ...) or post-Bane Sith (the prequels Sith) since they changed over the centuries.

 

However Social Darwinism appears to be the core of their system.

[Gorth]

On a more serious note, I'm personally going to go with the idea that the Sith are more a composite of several structures including, but not limited to, Social Darwinism, Fascism, and a dictatorship. A theocracy might also work, since the Dark Side of the Force essentially dictates what the Sith do.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

 

Isn't the Sith about not doing what the force dictates, but to use the force as the Sith sees fit ?

 

Since they are hardly a religious movement, they are more like an Oligarchy than a Theocracy.

[Zero]

Not sure if this helps any.. Remember seeing this a while back, and was able to find it... seems related..

 

David Gaider :

 

"How interesting.

 

If you listen closely to the tenets of the Sith, it seems quite reasonable on the surface. Who doesn't want to be free? They also, however, espouse freedom from the restrictions of morality... they are a superior people, gifted with the Force as few others are and therefore handed a genetic right to dominate the less-gifted.

 

Sound a little familiar to anything else you've ever heard of?

 

Maybe it should. I based the Sith teachings as I wrote them in Korriban on Nazi philosophy. Think about THAT for a moment. "

 

Theres a bit more in this thread : http://swforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html...&forum=76&sp=15

[Draxle]

On a more serious note, I'm personally going to go with the idea that the Sith are more a composite of several structures including, but not limited to, Social Darwinism, Fascism, and a dictatorship. A theocracy might also work, since the Dark Side of the Force essentially dictates what the Sith do.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

 

Isn't the Sith about not doing what the force dictates, but to use the force as the Sith sees fit ?

 

Since they are hardly a religious movement, they are more like an Oligarchy than a Theocracy.

Doh!

 

You're right... you're right. I concede the point to thee. An oligarchy would be more appropriate than a theocracy.

 

In my defense, it's very late right now, and I've replaced my blood with carbonated soft drinks... so my thinking process has been slowed to the pace of a common tree sloth.

 

But yeah, you're right.... I don't know what I was thinking... most likely, I wasn't, heh heh

[sniggy]

I was wondering is Fascism and Sith rule are basically the same? If it is then did Lucas base the way the sith government runs on Hitler and Mussolini in world War 2 or is it just my imagination.

the costumes in the prequels are all based off the third reich. though they weren

t sith but just imperials being led by one.

[Ivan the Terrible]

The Galactic Empire = The Third Reich with the more unsavory elements such as genocide pushed into the background in favor of menacing grey uniforms and shock troopers. Essentially, the Empire is 'Hollywood Nazis in Space.' When you go into the Expanded Universe, they even tack on the racist elements, with Palpatine portrayed as a human supremacist.

 

The Sith, by contrast, are not really Fascist. Fascism exults the leader in heroic, godlike terms; competition and 'social darwinism' may have a place amongst the lower ranks, but Nazism certainly didn't exhult the idea of backstabbing the Fuhrer in the middle of a war in order to take his place, as Malak does to Revan.

 

By the same token, while social darwinism is an important part of the creed, the ambitions of the individual were supposed to be subordinated to that of the state; no Nazi would ever have encouraged executing their own commander because he 'showed mercy' or because they thought they could 'take his place.' Doing so doesn't make them stronger, but rather undermines their war effort by promoting paranoia and chaos in the ranks.

 

And the whole thing about 'executing' an underling for even one failure? Heh. Complete and total stupidity. Imagine if Adolf Hitler had ordered Erwin Rommel executed after his first lost battle.

 

No, the Sith as portrayed in KOTOR aren't so much 'Fascist' as 'Moronic.'

[Yoda Tokare]

Facism is more cruel than the sith I think.

[Ivan the Terrible]

Facism is more cruel than the sith I think.

GGGAAAAHHHH!!! GET RID OF THE SIG, GET RID OF THE SIG!!!

 

I mean, jesus, a noteworthy sig is good and all but don't SWALLOW UP THE ENTIRE THREAD WITH IT.

[Gorth]

Facism is more cruel than the sith I think.

Why ?

[Yoda Tokare]

Look how Hitler tortured and killed those Jews.Although,palpatine and Malak killed many innocent people,but doesn't really torture all of them.They gave them a quick death.

[Opus131]

George Lucas made EVERYTHING.

No he didn't.

 

He made about 10% and took credit for the rest...

[Lohengrin]

Not sure if this helps any.. Remember seeing this a while back, and was able to find it... seems related..

 

David Gaider :

 

"How interesting.

 

If you listen closely to the tenets of the Sith, it seems quite reasonable on the surface. Who doesn't want to be free? They also, however, espouse freedom from the restrictions of morality... they are a superior people, gifted with the Force as few others are and therefore handed a genetic right to dominate the less-gifted.

 

Sound a little familiar to anything else you've ever heard of?

 

Maybe it should. I based the Sith teachings as I wrote them in Korriban on Nazi philosophy. Think about THAT for a moment. "

 

Theres a bit more in this thread : http://swforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html...&forum=76&sp=15

Looking at that Bioware thread is a bit disturbing actually. Im surprised that so many apparantly missed the obvious Nazi analogy when the sith explained their philosophy. I certainly didnt find Uthar Wynns words seductive or reasonable. They were repulsive to me, because I immidiatly recognised the trail of thought and saw where it would lead.

 

As such, I thought Korriban worked quite well. The base brutality of the lower sith ranks and the thin veil of respectability of the upper ranks where a Nazi trademark in many of the areas where their military held absolute control. They were all, like the sith, thugs with an ideology that doesnt hold up to any sort of critical scrutiny. The analogy isnt perfect but I feel it should be obvious to most people, and if it isnt, thats actually kind of scary.