saintfrancisnudecenterfold

meta wants a beating. meta wants a beating. where's my steak knife?

I've seen most early MMO design games without considering player creativity and enjoyment from creativity (perhaps they do not have much joy from creating, which kinda shows in their design quality). The end result are small areas with monsters kinda hanging out around the cities waiting to be smacked. If the MMO designers considered if their areas are supposed to be symbollic of larger area or if NPC action was supposed to be signifigant of far more than is blatantly represented, then gameplay might also permit that players could do far more in area and with creatures in certain game dialogues than is usually the case. However, game designers still focus on small area in MMO and the clumsy efforts to make this area seem larger, such as slowing characters unrealistically, enlargening terrain placables and shrinking character models (as was done in Star Wars Galaxies), is usually a turn-off to players. The personality traits that turn to such quick and never remedied solutions show up in other solutions these designers would take and result in a very badly made MMO that no one trusts and eventually must be made available in gift-packs. Such might be the case of the upcoming Alien versus Gnome Bard MMO being presently designed by Obsidian Ents. It is my suggestion that the Obsidian Ents quicky hurry to their homeland after this and wash themselves off with obsidianwash © ina nice sauna, being cared for by halfling schoolgirls and incubus paladins.

And so the little pigs went back to playing World of Warcraft, knowing full well that MMO suck and that not one of the new releases would be of any quality, be they Star Trek Online, World of Darkness Online, nor that new Bioware thing. Of course, the wisest pigs usually play on text-based MU*.

I'm gonna let meta have the donkey. Lots of donkeyrides later, meta might understand that I implied that Troika's standards were so poor, they fell to pieces and stop going on about a conspiracy. Last time meta and I argued, meta got kicked off some rinkydink LP-MUD. I feel so badly that I might cry like a little fairy. Really I might do.

If I think Troika are a bunch of long-haired fruitcakes with skunkweed in the glove compartment, does that count as a conspiracy theory? Man, you moderators. Anything for a giggle. Donkeys, lingerie, umbrellas and all that! Hang on -- I know a donkey's waiting for metadigital's Super Illuminati Donkey Punch!

Clearly, you like accusing people of stuff. Isn't metadigital a moderator of this bulletin board and the behavior of moderators might reflect on Obsidian as a company?

No, metadigital was insulting me and will probably claim to not be insulting me. I know Obsidian wants that sort of behavior associated with their corporate bulletin board. Really "upstat", right Obsidian? Anyway, Interplay did mention they were considering a project at least called "Fallout Online". So don't call me an SP just yet!

Wait. Let me write that one down so I remember it. If people think I am ignorant, claim they are paranoid and delusional. Ok. Now, metadigital, before you start insulting my family as well as asserting that I am chatting about conspiracies (which I am not), perhaps you should consider that maybe there are costs involved in producing a game, publishing a game, bringing it to market. The fall of a game company might have alot to do with mismanagement and poor market choice. Personally, I think Troika fell because they were on drugs most of the time. However, just so that no one misses the plain facts in the face of your oh-so biting and sharp retorts, as if anyone would expect such wit from a moderator here, Flying Buffalo is still around, the guys who make Tunnels and Trolls. There's a company that's selling Arduin-Grimoire products and rulebooks (the rights for the game belong to Hargrave's widow). Also, Rolemaster is still being published by ICE. Not only would Tunnels and Trolls be popular with the 16-bit theater chimp crowd, so would Arduin-Grimoire be fun for power-gamers, and Rolemaster be interesting for those who enjoy bloody detail and intricacy. These licenses might be a bit cheaper to obtain and sustain than others. Anyone hear aught of conspiracy here? No? That's because you're not a diaperhead. Do not feel badly if you *do* wear diapers on your head -- the fad's coming in fast and hard. Fallout Online has just been announced, so grab those diapers like they're hotcakes, and fasten them over your ears, boys and girls!

If you look at all of these games, they seem to excel in graphics and music, but for some reason it seems like Arcanum and all the other games by Troika have quite a bit of graphical strength but the gameplay doesn't seem quite so broad or deep as it could be given the time the designers claim to spend on these. Not every hand on board a game design company is working on graphics. One rather compelling argument for me is when a friend's kid asked why these games looksed so pretty but didn't let people do much more than fight. The only reasonable answer for this is that while the guys in graphics design seems to do their job, no one else does. The best solution to this is to fire the guys who aren't doing their work. Hire people who have been seminal in constructing games that permit a wide array of activity, computer games or campaign books or modules. Who the heck wants to pay fifty to seventy dollars for a game that doesn't work when bought (especially if you do not have internet to gain patches), which doesn't allow much more than smacking things, and when there is a non-combat choice (such as dialogue) it appearxs that quite a bit of the dialogue only leads to more combat. It's been said by many immature folk that a role-playing game is really just about fighting, nothing more. This false truism has been revealed to be false time and time again. Conflict and viance, yes. Combat? Not always. Ever play Birthright or a MUSH that doesn't focus on combat? Ever play Civilization and wonder what the game would be like if your character could walk through your great empire and talk to people? Ever see that roleplaying can be fun if alongside battle as main activities, there is diplomacy, intrigue, management of an economy and suchlike? I've had to say this time and time again. Once I had a talk with MUD designers back in the early nineties and it took five years for anyone to catch up with the idea. Pretty soon there will be a White Wolf MMORPG and perhaps following that a host of strategy-roleplay hybrids. Already a few MMO exist that focus on diplomacy and construction. It's only the primative and immature CRPG that do not take this into consideration and broaden their horizons. A CRPG isn't *just* what designers have focused on for years -- the category of RPG and computer game are neither very limited, although the laziest and most foolish of game deisngers and players might claim that it's never gonna be anything but Diablo with a twist of text.

Well, you do know that White Wolf and CCP (not ICP, despite Mark's urgings) have teamed up to create both a new card game based on EVE Online and a MMO based on the White Wolf World of Darkness property.

- If you knew anything about the gaming market you'd know that RPG companies do not hold or fold based on the quality of their games. Troika being one obvious exception, of course. However, you might also consider that all three games aren't dead. Rolemaster is still in print and the company is quite alive. Tunnels and Trolls is entering a new edition. Also, Arduin-Grimoire 2 is quite well and alive. It might also interest some of the older gamers, such as I, that Empire of the Petal Throne has seen a new edition and new official material is substantiating, in the works so to speak.

Since it is obvious that most computer role-playing game players like their characters with three or four digit hitpoint totals, prefer counting their levels in the hundreds, wouldn't an ideal RPG license be among Tunnels and Trolls, Arduin-Grimoire, or Rolemaster? Considering that all three games seem as if they'd have a popular appeal to three seperate and large crowds of computer gamers, wouldn't it seem like a good idea to leap to grab any of these licenses? Consider: Tunnels and Trolls was the standard comic RPG before even Hackmaster and although the name of maybe one or two spells would require changing for age ratings purposes, it is probably one of THE best and funniest RPG ever made. Fourth edition is soon to make an appearance. Flying Buffalo currently holds the Tunnels and Trolls license, I think. Given the simplicity of Tunnels and Trolls rules, it would be VERY easy to put into computer games turns, with little concern over manuevers and such. Characters strong as elephants who are wizards are not unknown (in fact, to cast some of the higher level spells, it is a saying that your wizard has to be as strong as a darn shoggoth). Tunnels and Trolls was also the very first game that permitted players to take the role of just about any monster or magical being in the game. It's rumoured that a player has played a half-tribble in that game... and there are such creatures as Bandersnatches and Giant Slimes that are also accessible to players for characters, sorta. Arduin-Grimoire is perhaps the darnedest game that focuses strongly on high level and massive power for characters and monsters, with treasures ranging from swords that can "slice the heads off several devil lords in one stroke" to monster encounters such as six balrogs crowded into a heavily trapped dungeon room that burst out from a secret door. This, plus a very immense game world. Interestingly enough, Arduin-Grimoire can be played as a fusion of Science Fiction and Medieval Fantasy, as a plethora of magical items are also science fictiony and there are gadget-using character classes that at higher levels do wonders that are typical of Space Opera. Rolemaster has so much complexity (and so many critical hit charts) that a computer would be perfect for playing it. If a computer game had Rolemaster rules, the variety and gameplay could be near infinite and very enjoyable, especially without a "story" or "plotline" except in the wide-ranging form that say Fallout 1 and 2 had. There are rules for stumbling (even fumbling while manuevering) in Rolemaster -- with rules that can take into account such things as characters smashing their head open while dancing in a typhoon while standing horizontal on a glass wall. While not comic in intent, some of the game situations especially at higher levels rival intentional comic effects that occur in games such as Tunnels and Trolls. Rolemaster also has a Science Fiction style game (Spacemaster) and other genre games that can be played with the basic core system. Of course, the list goes on and on.

I just hope Epiphany drops good loot.

Why isn't there an option for "all of the above" for worst character? I mean, all these characters seem truly, stupidly wrought. While the story in outline is ok, every way the story is brought into flesh seems clumsy and almost intentionally wrong to Star Wars but would be spectacular in a non-affiliated space opera title.

Or even from the cesspool. Say, what do you think Obsidian is doing with their MMO? Any guesses?

After briefly playing Planescape Torment, I intentionally shattered the cd-roms it came on. I was not pleased with the game, it was poorly written I think. I only write this to relate that not everyone thought that game was the peak of story-based roleplaying. I actually believe Ultima 9 would've been, if it were permitted sufficient time for development and if it had not been plagued with errors by those working on the project and mishaps during production. As far as storyline is concerned, it's not any of the "harsh and wicked" settings that seem to entertain me. Rather, the last story-based games that were interesting and entertaining were from Infocom and were text adventures, like Wishbringer, the Enchanter series, and Trinity. After Infocom fell, there were few story-based games that had a pleasing story and pleasing characters, in my opinion. Of course, Bioware and Black Isle tried. One problem I've seen are unfocused, shallow characters, even in many Infocom games. Also, portions of the writing in most games is substandard, non-professional, and displeasing. To see more elegant writing in a story-based game would be pleasing, as would more intricate characters. That's just my outlook on the issue.

There is no forbiddence here on replying to an old thread, nor should there be any such forbiddence. Any persons trying to start an argument on the basis of "necroposting" should reconsider such a response because it would be trolling for them to do so. In any case, I would be glad to see Obsidian or any other computer game company design and release a computer game set in the D&D outer planes. While "Planescape" as a campaign setting might be dead and while second edition assumptions about the Outer Planes have changed, the Outer Planes are not gone as a potential setting for any game to take place in. Since The Forgotten Realms is a huge license, inclusive of the Outer Planes, these are fair game for an entire official campaign module. We might just see an official campaign module set in a "Planescape" style set of regions, perhaps spanning as many of the Outer Plane areas as Obsidian Ent can broach within permissible timespan.

I think Troika games could only be called quality when most of the other game designers are idiots: it's on a ship of idiots that suddenly the semi-literate garage band become rock-stars of the seven seas. However, Troika had some pretty good talent involved with the company, it's only obvious if they didn't have a ghost writer or access to unpublished work by other writers. Note, in Arcanum, it is the setting, the texts, small side-plots and certain verbose moments in dialogue that rose above the drab battles and grabbing blue and red dots. It's the moments of intense interpersonal plots and thematic atmosphere texts that made the game cool. But the guy who wanted monsters everywhere should've been put in charge of picking up office litter, and the guy who put sheep in brothels and wanted heavy-metal demons pouring out of the sky should be on welfare forever. These three guys make another appearance in ToEE, where apparently the guy who did the epic sweeping atmosphere in Arcanum obviously went to work making sure everything was D&D. The sheep boy became gay and had a few splendid moments with pirates. The monster-litterer was most obvious in QA, because obviously no one looked at the gaping flaws in ToEE -- it was a boring branch of dialogue stories, without opportunity to sculpt ones own story in the setting of the Temple. Easy enough to do, really... (hint: mix a bunch of competing AI "sims" with a strategic game AI) Bloodlines did have quite a bit of burlesque, but what it lacked was the strong political game that the Masquerade demands. The sweet scheme was there (but weakly). The guy who likes planting monsters was in full effect. The sheepboy was doing the bump and grind. It was all working, it was all... screwed from get-go because all they ever needed in the dialogue and plot design for any of their games was the guy who does the background writing and maybe three more guys like him. The problem was, it was a game for Brujah and Gangrel. It was really just an FPS. The player character doesn't really get to play this game except as an outsider, but the way Vampire: the Masquerade operates, politics should've been a very strong option for gameplay. It was almost as if the designers suddenly decided to minimise all powers and skills to combat functionality. The same problem occurs in DDO: it's all about combat functionality, cutting out every single other possibility. Why not have combat, sociality, and crafting of ideas as well as tools? (By the way, the crafting of ideas can be modelled just as the crafting of objects or battle. All of these are actually very complex situations but are simplified in gaming terms, so crafting an "idea" needn't be portrayed much differently than crafting an object. Look at Harold Bloom's Anxiety of Influence, D&D's nine alignments, or heaven help us even James Bond RPG seduction method or Villains and Vigilantes Invention Point system). I don't know if Troika was intentionally messing up in order to allow future innovation or if they had a particularly strong love for sativa. Regardless, it turned out sloppy and was just a massive slaughterhouse, a video (game) nasty that wasn't particularly different from other video (game) nasties. I wasn't impressed. I was very dissapointed, in fact.

Meaningmore. We are given cause to wonder if PNJ is to be the cradle of the gods.

Please do not slyly insult me. I begin feeling aggressive and violent when people do that, it's an emotional situation we've all undergone I'm sure. No, I do not play FPS as means of catharsis, because I do not experience catharsis by fictive actions. Just cool it and play it civil, ok? You seem like you might normally be a nice guy. I do not use Wikipedia for all of my reference needs, but it does tend to be handy.

Sorry, it was Chris Avellone. Wikipedia shows Sawyer as being lead designer and my personal copy of Torment was smashed in an accident.

The issue with Planescape from what I can tell is that the graphics ran very slowly, load time was heinous, and the plot was slowgoing stuff at the outset. These are not formula for good sales in mass consumer situations. I was recently given a copy of Planescape as a gift and was astounded that it didn't even have the smooth game functionality that Baldur's Gate had (even on a newer computer), which was odd, because Planescape appeared after Baldur's Gate and were it an earlier engine that wasn't updated due to graphical work that a new engine would require, that pretty much explains the sloth of the game. The dialogue was pretty good and the graphics were grandly done. But Planescape was lead in design by JE Sawyer, and the quality of the game is typical of his perfectionism as regards graphics and dialogue. I am sure he had nothing to do with the Yeti fiasco in Icewind Dale I (where the Yeti quest bore remarkable similarity to a Call of Cthulhu short adventure, except with less a moral end). Of course, the game was still fun in many areas, and incredibly well done if I recollect, although as with all painted games such as this, the dungeons were tiny. Let us hope to see some marvellously wide and deep dungeons with Neverwinter Nights 2!

You know, a good wargame approach to this has been made in SPI's "War of the Ring" war game that used cards, dice, cardboard counters, and a printed paper map with hexagons on it. Players were allowed to move armies and characters from the story and create their own war structure based on the contents of The Lord of the Rings. This wasn't so very distant from the novels as most computer games are, but both more flexibility and more accuracy to Tolkien's presented situation would have been interesting. I do believe that a good computer game version might be based on this wargame's approach to flexible situation. Instead of a portrayal of exact events and manuevering around these events, portray the world environment and characters precisely as possible yet allow players to move their characters (and perhaps armies) as would seem appropriate and feasible but to their taste. In such a game, you'd have ability to move the Fellowship (or even the entire Westrenesse) but it would all be pretty much accurately done and also there would be limits such as character ability, faction inclination and outlook, the issue of corruption and the abilities and personal goals of each character. Simply portrayed, of course. If the game initiated at the beginning of the books, there is no reason why Bilbo would travel to Rivendale -- he might be moved to Tom Bombadil's steading (although this might be difficult for anyone but Gandalf to find, and Gandalf might be usefully moved elsewhere so...) or the Gray Havens or anywhere else. Also, the Fellowship might have different constituancy (if one wishes to deprive a region of its heroes), and other situations might arise too. Now, as to Lovecraft, the problem is most computer game designs are looking to portray a set of terse situations. Lovecraft's fictive world might be best done as a particularly normal setting with dangers very widespread yet hidden and distant from casual life, where everything is apparently normal, but a player character's happenstance situation, studies, travels, and acquaintences might bring them into contact with the abnormal and dangerous. In this sort of portrayal, a player who avoided interfering with the supernatural might notice that the supernatural was slowly consuming all casual and pastoral existence and even greater participation would be required to regain some measure of a pastoral lifestyle. Of course, in Lovecraft's horror writings, greater participation in the supernatural world resulted in greater horrors being unleashed upon the individual regardless of that individual's success and regardless of how necessary success was. However, given the prevalant insistance on optimistic and victorious endings for victorious player characters in computer games, player characters might just end up back in their pastoral, nice communities without everyone else realizing that the world had been saved nor even been threatened in the first place. And of course, it might be important to drift away from Lovecraft's inhumane views on natural superiority and natural inferiority as regards normally occuring structural variance.

Well, you know, there are a number of wonderful computer games based on movies, but for some reason, no one's done a good job of a Middle Earth/Silmarillion computer game or a Neuromancer computer game or a Lovecraftian computer game. And as far as I know, no one's ever tried to create a computer game out of the evocative novels of Samuel R Delany (visa viz. Nova, Triton, Dhalgren, or his everso wonderful Neveryon), nor of Tanith Lee's Tales of the Flat Earth, Secret Books of Paradys, nor Secret Books of Venus.

Let's return to mythic structure in computer games, shall we? A myth can be described as a sacred story that is no longer held sacred so much as regarded with interest and in some cases with reverence to its influence. Now, as to most stories I've seen: they often lack heroism of thought and heroism of word, even heroism of nuance.