ShadowPaladin V1.0

I agree. Cutscenes and choice really dont together. Cutscenes work very well when you are telling a single story in CGI form. Cutscenes allow you to get both a deeper sense of drama and a much more lively character interaction. What they dont allow for is a great deal of choice. If you imagine the effort that goes into scripting multiple cutscenes it makes word scripting look easy by comparison (and it isnt). When you have a character that should be the players creation you have to give them the leeway to play the character the way they like. Bioware have a habbit of "locking" you into cutscenes to tell their story at the expense of the character being able to go bugger this and hacking whatever is talking in two. Actually Shining Soul which is a cute little GBA game has the right idea about these things. They have cutscenes but you control your character in them. For example if you overhear a conversation , you can either stay hidden and listen, or you can take them by suprise. DAII did this, but it was a one off event in the game. I think Half life had these sorts of things too, but not certain enough to claim it is so. If the game is going to give me choice then I expect it. I dont expect it from an FF game (although you do get some choice of cutscenes, but no where near the ammount of variable dialogue you get in KOTOR). KOTOR is unique in that its the first game that has had you playing a pregenerated character without knowing about it from the outset. In PST it was very obvious from the start. This makes KOTOR a bit difficult to catagorise but if you look most of the major cutscenes are between Revan (as in not your character) and others. Where your actual character is involved the cutscenes are less common. My personal feelings are that if you are going to go for a traditional CRPG (ala FO) then the only CGI should be a big intro to get the player into the game. And a big extro to take them out of it and reward them for their effort. If the game is divided into chapters then cutscenes between chapters are fine too because it gives you a nice interlude but dosnt interfere with the gameplay.

Original is best saved for when you are an established name. Obsidian have been incredibly lucky if they have indeed snagged KOTOR 2 as their very first title. Look at Bioware. Everyone knows who they are now they have been doing D&D and StarWars over the last couple of years. Even people who dont hang out on message boards know who they are. Heck my GF even knows who they are. In theory even though Jade Empire is going to be an original game (well sort of) they are hoping that the Bioware name alone now will be enough to sell it. Where as before it was the D&D or SW name which was the driving force. Otherwise you take a big risk as a new software house making an original game. Even though Obsidian has a lot of pedigree its still not that well known outside gaming circles.

To Bioware that would translate as a more successful one. Everything irks someone.

True to a point. However BG was based on a whole different rules set and NWN focused only on a single character rather than a party. If someone was comparing BG to TOEE then it would just show a lack of knowledge in how the D&D ruleset has changed. Er.. NwN and I dont get along I think I'll just leave it at that. It's always been Biowares goal to make games accesable beyond those who own the ruleset I believe and In that I think they have succeeded. Where as TOEE was very much aimed at those who play D&D and had the AI actually measured up to the options. Would have required a fair ammount of rules knowledge to succeed. I actually rented KOTOR and didnt get a game manual but I still felt totally comfortable playing it.

I agree which is why I said it. But wouldnt that both games would have had pretty much the same results regardless of rules just illustrate how unimportance adherence to PnP rules are to the market in general ? Well 2e was an attempt to rewrite the rules based on what had occured in the Forgetten Realms after the fall of the gods. And for TSR to make money. 3e is basically WOTCs attempt to wash away the memory of TSR once and for all , oh and to make money. Many PnP players are still using either 1e or 2e with various modifications but the majority of people will switch with the system. Well my point was to prove that Bioware had no obligation to follow any set rules system just because they were using that setting.And as long as they got the ok from the owners of the setting they could do what they wanted. Beyond that anything else would need to be addressed to Bioware in hopes that you could convince them otherwise. Though given the success of KOTOR thats going to be a struggle on all but the most trivial level , unless they are already planning to do it anyway (and we are just unaware of it).

No because sales are the most important thing to a company the whole point of making something is in hopes you can sell it to as many people as possible. PnP games are rife balance problems the only difference is that if a DM detects them they can address them on the spot. A computer game cant do that. Thats your opinion only it may be an opinion shared by others but you can hardly claim it as a factual statement. Now I dont know why Revan had to be human. I didnt really see anything in the story that would have precluded a humanoid alien. But as your class only mattered as far as Dantooine (so chapter I) its pretty easy to see why they didnt go overboard on the class choices I think. I'm sure if you look at the SW d20 rules you will find just as many balance issues if not more. D&D is rife with them and I wouldnt expect SW to be different in that respect. oh here we go just found this http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/03/25/news_6092216.html

Why would I flip out over such an obviously ignorant statement ?

True but it is the most important one. As I said as long as they maintain the same flow and the on screen visual feedback that means you never need to refer to the combat statistics sheet then I really dont care what they use. Thats probably true of most people who dont play SW D20 as well. Well more active feats would have been nice and some better AI control options. As far as the rules themselves go. No complaints there. My first character wasnt really cut out to be a Jedi but he muddled through.

In this case I would say you were not 100% correct. TOEE adhered to the rules. Universal opinion is that its pretty much rubbish. KOTOR didnt adhere to the rules. Sold scads. Universal opinion its rather good. Adhering to the rules dosnt make a game automatically good anymore than not doing so makes one automatically bad. If people are so fixated on the rules then they are free to not buy KOTOR and play PnP d20 instead.

If adapted properly, neither would be a problem caused by the rules. The problem is BioWare taking a Turn Based system and trying to make it work in a Real Time game. They just don't translate well. You see the problem here is there is absolutely no basis of proof at all. There is no rule that says you must adhere absolutely to the rules that must be followed. Those are simply peoples opinions on what they think should be. If a game sells almost 2 million units you cant exactly say it has serious flaws that need to be addressed. Which is something you could do if it only sold around 50,000.

I dont go that far back. I have 1&2 in my collection but never played them. Missing number III. The generally start linear and end linear with a big non linear bit in the middle where you can take a break from the story to level up, steal items and what ever else you feel like doing. Oh and finding those hiddent locations like Bahumat in the undersea research station and Omega in the chapel. Best vehicle ever although the one in Skies of Arcadia is pretty spiffy too. You could see it that way I suppose. Basically instead of having to choose your job before battles you can change them during battle. There are a bunch of things called garment grids which you can place you chosen spheres on. You can then jump one grid path each turn. If you jump all grid paths then you can transform into your ultimate sphere which varies for each of them but is pretty powerful. If you get the mascot dress sphere then you can use certain class skills while in that form. Otherwise you need an appropriate accesory. Honestly though you only need 2 dark knights and an Alchemist with mega potion and your pretty much set except for the secret areas. Oh and depending on what you do in the game and what final score you end up with you get different endings. You can also choose which faction to side with along the way which changes things a bit as well. Fun game but dosnt really have the depth of FFX and I really missed Auron...

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong and 1000 times wrong. V - Job System VI - Esper System VII - Materia System VIII - Junction System XI - Skills system X - Sphere Grid X-2 - Job System (dress sphere) So basically the system changed every single game from V upwards. X and X-2 even though they share the same world use a totally different rules system. Which kind of shoots your theory out of the water given the success of the FF franchise dosnt it.If there is any lesson to be learned here its dont paint your franchise into a corner that it cant escape from. We saw that with FO. Perhaps Bioware designed it that way because thats the way they wanted it. I dont suppose that occured to you did it ? And as I said before I'm not missing anything. I JUST DONT CARE AS LONG AS THE GAME PLAYS WELL. Was that clear enough for you ?

No they adapted the d20 system no more no less. Easy example for you. Take minature A Take minature B Glue A's head onto B and B's head onto A. You now have two original creations. Bioware took what they wanted from the D20 system then added what they wanted themselves. Result the KOTOR rules are unique to that particular game. Now whether you agree or not is totally irrelevent. It dosnt change what they did.

Oh I have but thats an old story... Anyway I more or less forgave all after KOTOR. Not what you would call the biggest fan of NWN. When you put it like that yes. First thing that comes to my mind when I think adventure game is collecting items and puzzle solving. While there is the odd puzzle its not really a defining aspect. The story is very linear but I dont think the games themselves are. And FFX-2 is anything but linear (though oddly it plays better that way as you get a more complete story so I saw it as a big of an odd choice). There is always a point in the game where you have the whole world at your fingertips so to speak. In the case of VIII when you get the Ragnarok (coolest vehicle ever). Thats another thing I like about them. Even after you have played the story there is plenty more "game" in there to play. I started with FFX and worked backwards... FFX impressed me greatly. I'm a huge fan of the job system. FFV is one of my faves just for that reason. Love those whacky job combines. In VII I just picked 3 characters and junctioned them to the gills. Really paid for that when the end battle chose 3 characters at random. The sphere grid was ok. Never liked the way you could only have a small ammount of it onscreen at once. Got a fold out map and the bloody thing was huge. FFX-2 went back to the job system (renamed dress spheres)

Yup. They are probably trying to stay one step ahead of the market. But what I dont really get is thats not what that particular audience wants to hear anyway. And the majority of the people who have bought and are buying their games wont even be aware of it. Then again you cant really fault him for his honesty about his goals at least. There isnt really anything remotely adventure gamey about FF...The best analogy I have for an FF game is this. Take PST and remove the choices so you have a single path through the game. Then add in lots of secret areas which are off the beaten path of the main story and some critters that make the end boss look like a pussycat. The player takes care of the "game" elements and the characters take care of the "roleplaying" elements themselves. I just dont see the point in Bioware trying to copy Squenix on that front. But at the end of the day its really upto them. The best thing about the FF games is they constantly change so your never quite sure what your going to get.

Is it basketball season or something? Not true you can make your own rules based on another established rules system I know this for a fact because I've done it many times. Now selling that rules system is a whole different ball game but as long is its for personal use its not like anyone is going to know anyway. In Biowares case as long as they get the OK from Lucas Arts or whoever else then they can do they exact same thing. This idea that you and others have that the rules must adhere to the letter is just that. There is no basis for it beyond your own conception. In the case of Bioware the took the D20 system and they modified. If you consider it watered down thats entirely your perogative. But in any case its Biowares rules system and they created it specifically to use with KOTOR.

I dont see the point in going back and making a rules system from scratch when you can adapt one that already exists. I very much doubt that people bought KOTOR for its rules system any more than they bought BG for its. Rather they bought it for the setting which using the rules system or a custom version of it allows. DM's tinker with the rules all the time if the game has different rules interpretations then its not really that different.

Umm. But thats exactly what they did. Made their own rules "based on" the D20.

But based on means just that. Not a carbon copy of. If they had said KOTOR uses the D20 rules system then that would have been naughty. But based on as long as they use a D20 in there somewhere they are covered. I'm not sure why people are so fixated on rules I'm always more concerned that the game plays. Even when its based on a rules system I am familiar with like D&D.

Same here. Well would you have been happy if it had been 3 male and 1 female ? Actually as long as the one was Viconia I would have. But you get the point Dave has to think about making games that will sell to the widest possible audience. Higher production values - need to sell more units. More units sold higher expectations of sales from the next title - the more the game needs to be made accessable. In a game with only stats Int or IQ is fair measure for dialogue. If you have skills though then you can write more skill oriented dialogues. Because it dosnt much matter how intelligent you are if you dont know the subject matter your never going to be able to fool someone who does like a professor. The higher the specific skill, or if you have a particular skill like legend lore the more you can find out.

No I understand perfectly what your view as a player of SW d20 is. But as a non player I dont care about adherence to rules I dont even know. KOTOR played very fluidly and as I said I didnt even need to refer to dice rolls, thats how good the onscreen visual feedback was. So its not going to bother me whether or not Obsidian adhere to any rules or not. As long as they maintain the same level of fluidity. DX II was a very refreshing game. First time I have felt absolutely free to do whatever I wanted to do. Without having to chase the reward carot for advancement. When I broke back into the WTO and darted everyone (rather than shooting them) I was working for them after all. I dont think it mattered to the game. But it made my particular version of Alex D rather pleased with themselves. Too many times in RPGs the need to gain experience so you can be the right level to tackle a particular challenge may well force you into a particular mode of play. DX alleviated that at a stroke. No having to give dialogue choices a reward of 1000 xp just to make the "talkie" path a viable one.

Mixture of both. I think I see what your getting at though. Spend less time on a few lines of responses for the minor NPCs so you can devote more to making the meaningful encounters.. Well, more meaningful. Well choice can also equal replayability but it dosnt have to. If you only had one possible romance it might feel very forced I think a lot of people felt that about Amoen. On the other hand you give people a choice of romances and they will be happier even if they never play all of them. In this case providing choice for one single playthrough of the game is also something that makes the game more replayable. For example the race/class/kit structure is very variable. However I dont think the intent was for you to ever play every possible combination do you ? While it does again add to replayabilty its primary purpose is to provide choice. I think this is what Dave was getting at. They are not adding things purely on the grounds that people might replay the game. So the game is made largely accesable regardless of what stats you might pick. Fallout with 3 int might have made for an interesting experience. But if it was your only play through of the game it would have been rather limited. If you allowed for every cultural and educational variable in dialogue it would be pretty mind bogling.I'd tend to tie it to specific skills rather than to a base stat if at all. Depending on the subject a higher level skill enables a more indepth discourse. It was something that was very much on the main plot of the game I thought. At least I never managed to miss it at all. Well in a magical universe anything is possible. However even some sort of explanation like in the case of Sarevok is better than having them just alive again. As long as they do better next time I wont complain overmuch.

Does the Skywalker line start with Anakin ? The thing is not everyone who plays KOTOR plays SW d20. I've played KOTOR but I have no desire to play SW and havnt for many years. I stopped back with the West End Games line. From my perspective the rules worked. Actually I didnt even look at the gamestats sheet (the one that tracks the rules) thats how fluid and non intrusive they were. I wouldnt touch MGOTY unless I was paid for the displeasure.

Having made an NWN mod I have a lot of respect for the poor sods who have to do the scripting. Trying to come up with responses that will apply at least in part to every character. As well as keeping the NPC's own motivations and desires in mind. Not the easiest thing in the world to do. I ended up with huge dialogue trees which you had to scroll to read. There is a huge ammount of dialogue that always leads to the same conclusion in NwN. It's probably there to provide the illusion that your choices matter but its rather easy to see through. Well you know the old saying love is blind. Although I dont agree with the reasons on that particular aspect of the game I dont see it as that much of a big deal. I think Dave is working from the point of view that most people dont even finish games let alone play them more than once. In that case I can appreciate why he would want to expose the player to the maximum ammount of possible game on a single playthrough. Aside from that though choices are at the heart of what roleplaying is all about. If your not going to have the player make hard choices. Then you really may as well go for the Squenix approach and create a game where you dont roleplay as much as "read" someone elses roleplaying session (something I enjoy a lot , but certainly not something I would call roleplaying in the classical sense). Although from the looks of Jade Empire that may be the direction they are slowly heading in. Which would be a shame because its not like there are not enough JRPGs from Japan as it is. Thats another example of the weakness inherent in scripting. Unless you have a generic bribe script based on hps or something your going to have to script everything individually. True but as a rule you just needed speech alone. Even so people who intend to have high speech would almost certainly have high charisma too. The report in question wasnt exactly difficult to find either as I recall. I like the anime model. You beat the crap out of each other then you talk.Talking your way out alone seems very anticlimactic. I know after I did in PST I reloaded and beat the crap out of it because it just felt like a hollow victory. Of course you end up in the bloodwars either way. Long time ago but its really just to illustrate that it can be done and you dont have to force dead people into sequels. Had I killed Imoen in BG I wouldnt have been able to play BG II with the same character. It would just be too much of a stretch. If you do use recuring characters then you have a responsibility to maintain continuity with them. Otherwise you are invalidating the previous experience of the player. Not that i'm against sequels but generally not enough attention is paid to the individuals experience with a previous game.