[[Merged] Co-Op Multiplayer as some potential future stretchgoal?]

I'd rather co-op be developed independently after release in a separate campaign that can be bought and launched separately. There's going to have to be changes for it to work in the best possible way, so it should be designed around co-op. If there's no market for this then there's probably no reason to add it to the game anyway.

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

What is the cut that Steam is taking from Obsidian for each Kickstarter "copy" (not a copy, probably a license)? Do the numerous Free to Play game developers that are on Steam also pay Steam? Steam definitely take a cut from sales from their store, but the use of their service, I'm not so sure because it's highly valuable for them to allow people to use their service for free.

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

I think the OP lost the point when he introduced Steam and GoG. It's understandable that they're unrelated, and thus ownership on one does not dictate ownership on the other.

 

That's not what I want, I want ownership from Obsidian, and this already happens on Steam, as games often have independent systems on top of Steam in regards to ownership. I said way earlier that this was a red herring, completely missing the point of my original post. I don't see it as ownership on either, if I buy the game I own the content for personal use. If a developer wants to charge fees for costs associated with porting or bandwidth that's fine. Steam aren't obligated to allow me to use their service, but they would allow me to use their service. GoG, I don't know whether they'd want to allow me to use their service if I got the game from somewhere else, but I don't need GoG for any features of services, a DRM-free version doesn't need anything past distribution, so if not GOG then somewhere else, doesn't have to be a store.

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

It's not an additional "free" copy, people who confuse physical media with digital content have this model in their head that's absurd.

 

Well I have to admire your tenacity.. but that's not true - it is a different copy, one copy from Steam, one copy from GoG or one copy from a torrent - You have to think of them like physical entities even though they are not, because that's how they are sold. And yes, you've bought a copy through Kickstarter - now you have to choose the venue to download it from.

 

I get that you want to buy it from GoG and put in into your Steam library to enjoy the automatic updating etc, but that is exactly like so many have pointed out - like trying to go to a different store with a product and asking for support / refund / whatever. It's never gonna happen, because Steam/GoG wants you to put money in their basket as well.

 

Even if that's how they're sold, and it's not, I don't have to think of them like physical entities, that's wrong. The games I have from Steam and GOG do not operate like physical entities at all, they're obviously not physical entities, and it's absolutely silly to think of them as such, it's only an idiotic contrivance that I don't think it right at all.

 

Steam are fine with this, it's happened before, so your "never gonna happen" is "already happened many times". This is the most bizarre thing about this, if everyone here doesn't use Steam or GOG, or have donated to the Humble Indie Bundle, I suggest you give them a try before commenting so you at least know how they work.

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

let me put it this way

if you buy a game on gamestop, are you entitled to go and demand a free copy of that game from every other shop that sells it because you "already bought it"? the answer is obviously NO

it is the same thing with digital delivery systems: gog is a shop and steam is different shop. you cant go to one and demand a free copy because you bought the game on the other. and kickstarter rewards are like preordering the game veeeeery early. you can choose the shop you preorder from but cant choose to preorder on both, pay for one and still get it on both

 

I don't believe physical media is the same for digital delivery systems or digital content in general. Physical media costs money to produce, sure services have bandwidth costs but I already said this wouldn't be a problem. 1) Steam aren't going to charge for bandwidth, and they gladly will take users, they've already done this for the Humble Indie Bundle. 2) Torrent trackers. 3) Obsidian can charge for server usage if they want. If you take stock from a store then you're denying them the potential to sell it, with digitial distribution this is not the case.

 

It's not an additional "free" copy, people who confuse physical media with digital content have this model in their head that's absurd. I don't want an additional copy, I wouldn't be able to get an additional copy. I'm getting the ability to play without DRM and the limitations that it has, and also the ability to play with DRM and get several useful features. Whether with Steam or GOG I'm getting as many copies as I want, I can download them as much as I want, on many computers.

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

Am I crazy? Am I an entitled gamer? Is this naive/impracticable?

Yes

Yes

and Yes.

 

There is no reason for this. It would screw up their money and double their server fees with Steam and GOG. And I bet only a handful of gamers would want this. I mean I've never heard someone ask for a DRM free game and also say they like to use Steam, so they want both games. Can't you just buy the game off GoG and upload it to your Steam games anyway?

 

Would it double their server fees? No. 1. Steam doesn't charge for server fees on a bandwidth basis. 2. You wouldn't need to download the entire game again, the amount you'd need to download is a lot less. Can you just upload it to your steam games and get the same features? No.

 

 

As I've explained multiple times now, I don't care whether it's GOG or Obsidian find some where else, even use a torrent tracker, that doesn't matter. Even if they charged for the bandwidth use, who cares, it's not like you need to download the entire game if you already have one version, you have the vast majority of content. I'd really like to know what people think you're getting for "free" and how it's such a big deal.

 

Okay, so if I am getting this straight you don't just want to be able to use GOG or Obsidian or whatever, but you want all of those places to recognize that you have the game installed (regardless of where you installed it from) so that you utilize their services to patch and so forth?

 

So if you, say, pick it up from GOG, it'll still have Steam integration and you can patch the game via Steam automatically?

 

If it seems like we're being obtuse, it's because you haven't been clear at all. When you bring in phantom "torrent trackers" it gets even muddier. Like, what's the torrent tracker for?

 

It doesn't have to be those places, I want Obsidian to recognise it, and I know that Steam supports this. It doesn't even have to work from Steam to GOG, it just has to work from GOG to Steam.

 

I mentioned the model that I wanted in my original post (which uses torrent trackers as an option), and the problem I had, I offered a solution (I also mentioned torrent trackers) but it wasn't the only solution. I didn't mention the obvious fact that the content. The torrent trackers would be for a DRM-free version that Obsidian offers to owners of the game.

 

Half the posts are complaints about things I addressed in the original post, and it's not like I wasn't clear about it. I can understand that people don't realise that the difference between a Steam game and a DRM-free doesn't necessarily have to be the entire game, but only a very small amount of files (although I don't know why I have to address this multiple times).

 

As I've explained multiple times now, I don't care whether it's GOG or Obsidian find some where else, even use a torrent tracker, that doesn't matter. Even if they charged for the bandwidth use, who cares, it's not like you need to download the entire game if you already have one version, you have the vast majority of content. I'd really like to know what people think you're getting for "free" and how it's such a big deal.

 

Okay, so if I am getting this straight you don't just want to be able to use GOG or Obsidian or whatever, but you want all of those places to recognize that you have the game installed (regardless of where you installed it from) so that you utilize their services to patch and so forth?

 

So if you, say, pick it up from GOG, it'll still have Steam integration and you can patch the game via Steam automatically?

 

If it seems like we're being obtuse, it's because you haven't been clear at all. When you bring in phantom "torrent trackers" it gets even muddier. Like, what's the torrent tracker for?

 

It doesn't have to be those places, I want Obsidian to recognise it, and I know that Steam supports this. It doesn't even have to work from Steam to GOG, it just has to work from GOG to Steam.

 

I mentioned the model that I wanted in my original post (which uses torrent trackers as an option), and the problem I had, I offered a solution (I also mentioned torrent trackers explicitly in relation to how some bands release albums) but it wasn't the only solution. I didn't mention the obvious fact that the content. The torrent trackers would be for a DRM-free version that Obsidian offers to owners of the game.

 

The OP has either epic entitlement issues or doesn't understand very basic business principles.

 

Just because this is the way business is practiced does not mean it's right. Also there are plenty of examples of games that can be bought from many other digital distributors but activate on steam, the best example being the Humble Indie Bundle.

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

Since I explained why in my original post I don't know why you even bothered to comment.

 

You explained magical happy land. You're saying "Hey CDProjekt, I bought this game through Steam. Valve has some money, but you should let me download it because I'd really like a DRM free version."

 

As I've explained multiple times now, I don't care whether it's GOG or Obsidian find some where else, even use a torrent tracker, that doesn't matter. Even if they charged for the bandwidth use, who cares, it's not like you need to download the entire game if you already have one version, you have the vast majority of content. I'd really like to know what people think you're getting for "free" and how it's such a big deal.

 

Why do you need to be able to download it from multiple sources?

 

That's not the point. I've already explained why I'd like a Steam version and a DRM-free version.

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

Since I explained why in my original post I don't know why you even bothered to comment.

 

You explained magical happy land. You're saying "Hey CDProjekt, I bought this game through Steam. Valve has some money, but you should let me download it because I'd really like a DRM free version."

 

As I've explained multiple times now, I don't care whether it's GOG or Obsidian find some where else, even use a torrent tracker, that doesn't matter. Even if they charged for the bandwidth use, who cares, it's not like you need to download the entire game if you already have one version, you have the vast majority of content. I'd really like to know what people think you're getting for "free" and how it's such a big deal.

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

If you want the STEAM copy, get the STEAM copy... If you want DRM free, get the DRM free. Since you seem to like STEAM I have no idea why you would want the DRM free too.

 

What if Steam changes in the future? What if I want to play Project Eternity while Steam is downloading or while someone else is playing another game? What if I haven't got the internet at that moment to install the game from Steam?

 

Then just get the GoG version. I still don't see why you would need both.

 

EDIT: When picking a service you have to take the good with the bad.

 

Since I explained why in my original post I don't know why you even bothered to comment.

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

I'm not telling them to do that, that's not what I have been writing at all, Steam don't have to do anything, they're already distributing the game.

 

You're saying that they have to provide their servers to you, so that you can download a game that you bought somewhere else, that they aren't seeing any money from.

 

No I'm not, that's not even close. I'm saying they gladly do this, but that's not even what I'm asking. I'm not asking Steam to offer its service, that's backwards.

 

If you want the STEAM copy, get the STEAM copy... If you want DRM free, get the DRM free. Since you seem to like STEAM I have no idea why you would want the DRM free too.

 

What if Steam changes in the future? What if I want to play Project Eternity while Steam is downloading or while someone else is playing another game? What if I haven't got the internet at that moment to install the game from Steam?

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

It is Steam's perogative, but they want people to use Steam so that's not going to be a problem, they do it for the Humble Indie Bundle. Adding game shortcuts to Steam doesn't add autoupdate/file integrity or the Steamworks features AFAIK.

 

Then why doesn't Steam do it for every game that is available through different distrubtors? After all it would get everyone to use Steam.

 

 

You have to understand you're literally telling Valve/Steam to equally support a game purchased through, say, Good Old Games, at no compensation for themselves.

 

Steam don't do it for all games because they don't have an infinite amount of time and they need the rights owner's permission. It's quite obvious they would like people to use Steam, they might buy things while they're there, they even allow Free to Play games there.

 

I'm not telling them to do that, that's not what I have been writing at all, Steam don't have to do anything, they're already distributing the game.

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

I think that you should be able to register on Steam, use their services, but also have access to a DRM-free version if there's one available that you don't have to pay for again, only the costs involved with having it accessible.

 

This is Steam's prerogative to do this though. It's also not something that is just done willynilly and for free. There's a reason why I can register my boxed copy of UT2k4 on Steam but not my GamersGate copy of Crusader Kings 2.

 

Also, you do know you can add non-Steam games to Steam right? That gets you most of the benefits anyways...

 

It is Steam's perogative, but they want people to use Steam so that's not going to be a problem, they do it for the Humble Indie Bundle. Adding game shortcuts to Steam doesn't add autoupdate/file integrity or the Steamworks features AFAIK.

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

They shouldn't have to, it doesn't have to be through GOG, it can be through a bittorrent tracker or another avenue from Obsidian. They may want to do it, the same way that Steam allows some games to be registered on it if they're from Amazon, GamersGate, Green Man Gaming, or the Humble Indie Bundle.

 

So basically you're saying "don't use Steam or GOG, use something else?"

 

 

As for Steam "allowing" some games to be "registered" on it, are you referring to games that use, say, Steamworks?

 

Whatever is necessary. It would be good if Steam and GOG were still options. No, not Steamworks, games don't have to have Steamworks to be registered on Steam from other sites like the Humble Indie Bundle. I think that you should be able to register on Steam, use their services, but also have access to a DRM-free version if there's one available that you don't have to pay for again, only the costs involved with having it accessible.

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

They don't have to pay for two copies.

 

You don't think so?

 

Maybe the question should be looked at differently:

 

Why should CDProjekt and GOG provide you a copy of the game just because you have access to it via Steam?

 

Why is that?

Because you're buying from two different people. Steam and GOG.com are different stores. You can't expect Target to honor your purchases at Wal-Mart.

 

They shouldn't have to, it doesn't have to be through GOG, it can be through a bittorrent tracker or another avenue from Obsidian. They may want to do it, the same way that Steam allows some games to be registered on it if they're from Amazon, GamersGate, Green Man Gaming, or the Humble Indie Bundle.

 

Question--if you bought a VCR and later switched to a DVD player, would you complain like this about having to pay "full price" to get the DVD version? Or the BluRay version?

 

How about this--get it on GoG and then wait for it to go on CRAZY sale on the Steam store (which it surely will eventually) and get it for like, $3.99. But don't try to make the devs responsible for getting you a copy on every conceivable delivery system you might possibly want to use.

 

It baffles me how people think they're entitled to have everything from every source. You are not buying "the game". You're buying a single copy, through a particular delivery method. Accept that and learn how to weigh pros/cons and make choices.

 

It's not the same content from a VCR to a DVD to a BluRay. It's not the same licenses for the formats. They're all forms of physical media. Do you actually know what these things are?

 

That's not what I'm asking, you obviously did not read my post. I don't care about the delivery method. That's a complete red herring.

 

I'm not buying a single copy, I don't think you understand how this works at all. I can download the game as many times as I want when I buy it from GOG or Steam. I can copy it onto many computers. I can even buy games from other stores and activate them on steam. Have you ever used GOG or Steam? They treat purchase as a license to play the game.

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

Unrealistic expectations. This isn't some indie bundle, it's a game from a major studio.

 

Fact is, you have no idea what kind of deal Obsidian needed to cut with Steam and GOG to offer these games to the pledgers. Combining the two like that is almost certainly contractually impossible.

 

I don't know whether you have any idea. Source?

 

What would be the point of the Steam version if you already have the GOG one?

 

As I said in my post, Steam has nice features, such as auto update/file integrity check.

 

Why is that?

 

Do you really fail to understand that Obsidian would be essentially giving out two games for the price of one? It's very bad business, since nothing would prevent anyone from giving their spare serial out for free to another person.

 

Copyright infringement happens anyway, even with DRM, this will happen anyway. If someone gets the game on GOG they can give the installer they download to as many people as they want.

 

They're not two games for the price of one, if I want to play a game on steam but also on my laptop with linux, that's not getting two games for me. Also it's the same it's the same content, if I buy the game for double the price on two platforms I'm not gaining an extra game.

 

Why is that?

 

Do you really fail to understand that Obsidian would be essentially giving out two games for the price of one? It's very bad business, since nothing would prevent anyone from giving their spare serial out for free to another person.

This. Having the same game on Steam and GOG might count as just one game for you, but Obsidian has to provide (and "pay for") two copies. I don't think that's reasonable.

 

They don't have to pay for two copies.

 

And about the OP request, I don't think they should give you two serial keys but instead one serial key should allow you to download wichever version you want.

I think that, if you are buying a license to use a software, you should be able to use that software in all the OS for wich the software is compatible.Blizzard entertainment, for example, has done this for years with their games (and many other kinds of commercial software sold trough Internet works the same way), and if Project Eternity releases in steam and is compatible with Windows and Mac, you will not have to pay for it twice, because it will be a "steamplay" title.

 

This solution would be OK, it would be better if a DRM-free version was made accessible, but that's a decision for the developer to make.

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

My main problem is that I'm not really sure what you're talking about...

 

...believe that it's not good form to charge people for the same content.

 

The best Obsidian can do is offer choice and they've done that,

 

What's stopping them from offering both?

 

...but you shouldn't have access to multiple game keys unless you pay for it

 

Why is that?

[Ownership: Paying for things twice.]

I don't necessarily think this applies to the Kickstarter, because it's funding a project not buying a product. I also don't want to be overly critical because Obsidian (also previously Black Isle, Troika, Interplay) does a heck of a lot out of goodwill for free.

 

I do believe that it's not good form to charge people for the same content. I think it's right that people that buy the game on Steam also have access to the DRM-free version. If made to choose I'll always go for DRM-free (I picked up all the infinity engine games on GOG last year, have Fallout 1/2 on GOG, Steam, and CD) but I like Steam as a service (e.g. auto updates/file integrity check), and as long as the offline mode works (which it seems to be in recent months), there's no downsides for me. The same goes for different platforms, sure it costs money to port things, and you don't have to be like Valve and let people play on other platforms for free, but I don't think it's right to pay the full price if you want to switch platforms (e.g. from Windows to Linux). Soundtracks that are included in the game, why pay for the content that's just in another format? Some work is sometimes done additionally to these but sometimes they're more expensive that the actual game, it's a bit ridiculous.

 

It would be great if when the game is released that it's released like a Humble Indie Bundle release, you get steam keys, other platforms if available, and FLAC soundtrack. Steam supports 3rd party serials that could be used on another website (i.e. GOG). Some musicians throw up their album up on a bittorrent tracker because it's not like it won't be on one anyway, the Humble Indie Bundle guys have a tracker.

 

Am I crazy? Am I an entitled gamer? Is this naive/impracticable?