Creslin321

Choosing a Ranger pet IS one of the level up benefits of the ranger class. So kindly edit your 'proposal' to say: "3. Respec will essentially just let you choose every level up benefit again, but will not let you choose a new class or race, or any of your class's level 1 abilities. And then come back here and tell us how exactly one is supposed to design such a respec feature that remembers the choices you made at level one, and magically prevents you from changing just them. It doesn't have to remember what you did at level 1...it only has to remember your race and class. This is not difficult, there are plenty of games that do this. And even IF you wanted a respec option that remembered what you did every level and only let you redo so much...that would not be difficult either.

------ If respec is an option that you choose when you start the game, then you are no more gimping yourself by choosing not to have respec in your game, as you would be if you chose hard difficulty over easy. It just lets you customize your game experience to your liking.

Really? ^that's Literally the poster I'm responding to and the specific issue I'm responding to. You do realize that right above the number 4 that you quoted from my post it says: 3. Respec will essentially just let you choose every level up benefit again, but will not let you choose a new class or race. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and just assume that you maybe missed that part, but I hope that you can appreciate our frustration here lol.

What? It has Everything to do with the grand design. No, more than that. It has everything to do with Josh Sawyer's entire philosophy behind gaming. Respeccing is degenerate gameplay by definition. It's a 4th wall-breaking exploit that isn't much different at its core than save scumming and metagaming. Josh spent the last 2 friggin years trying to design a system with perfect balance, where there's no bad builds, No trap build options, and no dead-end consequences. And he did it for no reason BUT to insure that a respec feature wouldn't ever be needed. --------------- This is an actual quote from Josh Sawyer: Things I am in favor of in RPGs: · Allowing the player to respec advancement choices (e.g. skills, feats, spells, etc.) at specific points in the game. · Tying the respec to something that is explained in the context of the world (e.g. a trainer NPC of some sort or at least a location where the character can spend time). · Imposing a non-trivial cost to the respec. · Tying respec capability to level of difficulty and/or game modes. Things I am not in favor of: · Allowing the player to respec the base aspects of a character (e.g. class, race). Especially when it comes to companions, many of these concepts are too integral to what the character is all about. I have been making RPGs for 13 years. During that time, I have directly watched literally hundreds of people play these games and indirectly heard many more describe their experiences. I've seen expert players, moderately-experienced players, and people who are new to RPGs. It brings me only misery to see someone stop playing a game because they slowly realize they made an irrevocable strategic mistake due to their own ignorance, lack of experience, or even careless reading of a description. I think it is good to allow advanced players to lock off respec options and I think it is good to put an in-game cost and location restrictions on when/where respec can occur, but I think it is extremely valuable tool, even for experienced players. In a system that allows myriad options, it is extremely easy for a player to make a choice that is valid and grants a benefit but does not produce the outcome they expect (e.g. produces an orthogonal rather than directly complementary/stacking benefit). In what way can you interpret this to mean anything close to what you attributed to him in your post? He flat out says here that he is in favor of respec so long as you can't change class/race for narrative purposes. Which sounds completely reasonable to me.

Bull sh*t. 1) The game has named NPCs who were specifically designed by Obsidian and are tied to the narrative. A Respec feature, which allows for the player to respec these NPCs, would change those NPCs. Sagani is a ranger. The game treats her as a ranger. Her backstory is about her being a ranger. Her Pet is fleshed out - its name given, and species defined. Now here come the Ohioastro's and Creslin321's of the world: "hey, I want Sagani to be a mage!". "Hehehe, I just respecced Sagani and made her a better ranger with a different pet!" 2) Choice & Consequence Eliminated. PoE has a remarkably dynamic character building system where build choices are actually tough to make. Every choice has a consequence. A Respec feature eliminates that. Ok, You could argue that this would only apply to people who decide to use the respec feature. But a game that offers optional easy-outs like a "reset-yer-stats" button has already done its damage. Its Choice & Consequence element has been cheapened because the consequences are meaningless. Whether the player uses the respect feature or not, he knows that he doesn't have to live with his decisions if he doesn't want to and that he doesn't need to start over if he wants to try again. if the game allows you to bypass the consequence, then there's no friggin consequence. 3) Replay value is changed. Already discussed on this thread so I won't go into details. People who would have eagerly replayed this game with a different class, or with the same class but without the 'build mistakes" they made the first time around, will no longer feel the need to, because they were able to change classes/fix their build mistakes the first time they played the game. 1. The respec solution I proposed specifically said you can't change class, so there goes that argument. 2. Once again, the same argument with easy difficulty applies here. Easy difficulty removes consequence. Not going ironman mode removes consequence. And yet, the people that choose these things are probably still enjoying the game. It's not up to you, me, or anyone to tell someone else how they can best enjoy the game. 3. If you can't change class, you still have lots of replay value. Also, why aren't you complaining about the fact that you can create as many adventurer characters of whatever class you want? Doesn't this "damage replayability?"

---------- Nice cherrypick, but you missed my point. My point was that respec has existed as a concept for a long time. It is not a new invention of casual games. Respec even exists in pen and paper games. Your entire casual theory hinges on the idea that respec is just something that younger casual gamers want, and "real" RPG players never respecced back in the 90's. But this is clearly not true. The fact that there were respec mods for just about every CRPG in the 90's proves that there was a desire for respec even back then. So I'm sorry, but the argument that only "filthy casuals" want respec is bunk.

As did the Icewind Dales. So? I said, with multiplayer IN MIND. You can't play the BG games multi-player and conclude that they were built for it. Indeed. I can answer your question though. The topic is always out there because casuals make up the majority. Because games like Diablo 3, WoW, and Dragon Age have conditioned the masses. Those games are the new normal. So of course, when Obsidian floated the idea of a classic RPG, we got the usual questions. "will it be multi-player?", "Will it have cooldowns?" "can I respec my character?", "can I play with a controller?", "Why is this game in 2d"? We got all these questions and more from these very same people. Thankfully, Obsidian didn't cave. ----------- Okay so I want to address your "casual theory" regarding respec. I am certain that I have been playing CRPGs for just about as long as you, and maybe even longer. I am confident in this statement because I have been playing them since Ultima IV on the Commodore 64, which is fairly close to when CRPGs started to exist at all. I am not a "modern casual gamer" by any stretch of the imagination. The fact that I like to respec my character does not make me a casual gamer "conditioned" by modern games. As I've stated before, the concept of respeccing has existed for a long time. Even if you couldn't respec in-game, there were always mods for it, so it's not like respeccing was unheard of in the 90's. I'm sorry, but there is no moral or intellectual superiority to not having respec...it's just a preference, that's it. I completely understand the appeal in NOT having respec, which I why I really like things like "hardcore" mode in games that give a more punishing and unforgiving experience. But at the same time, I understand the value of having a respec option as well.

------------ First, I would argue that PoE is actually BOTH a story driven game AND a power gaming clickfest. In fact, one of the best parts of the game IS the power gaming clickfest. This is why so many people have praised the game's combat and class design. If you want a pure story driven game, then I think you're talking about games by Tell Tale or something like Heavy Rain. Second, to address the "realism" argument. We're talking about a game here where if someone sings three verses of a song, then they can make skeletons pop out of the ground. I don't really think respec is far fetched in this case. Especially since a major theme of this game is reincarnation...maybe a respec is equivalent to remembering abilities from past lives, but in trade, forgetting things you could do before. It's not hard to explain anything in a fantasy game...

This is a load of BS, and it's already been addressed a couple of times on this thread. Get this through your head already. The issue here is NOT other people's play styles, the issue is game design. There's an integrity here that the stock game shouldn't break. Developing the game with a respec feature is just one of the breaking points. Others include: 1) Designing the game for consoles (Xbox1, PS4 etc.) 2) Designing the game without perma-death 3) Designing a game with multi-player in mind etc. With all of these, one can simply argue "well it doesn't affect you, since all of these things would be optional. Simply don't play the game on a console, don't play multi-player, and just dismiss party members who fall in battle! Problem solved!". But that doesn't address the argument. Some of us backed this game because we were specifically promised an "old school" IE experience. Had they, instead, promised us "the modern Dragon Age experience" I wouldn't have given them a single penny of my money. Enough of this. It's my turn now make suggestions. PoE does not have a respec feature because that's not the type of game it was designed to be. Deal with it. Cheat, download mods, grab your skyrim buddies at the Nexus and ask them to modernize the game to your own specifications. Or, just stick around here and whine about how unfair life is for another 5 pages. Either way, problem solved. ----- You realize, Oh Grand Priest of Infinity Engine, that The Baldur's Gate series had multiplayer, right? ------------ LOL good point. Pretty sure BG 1/2 didn't have permadeath either.

This is a load of BS, and it's already been addressed a couple of times on this thread. Get this through your head already. The issue here is NOT other people's play styles, the issue is game design. There's an integrity here that the stock game shouldn't break. Developing the game with a respec feature is just one of the breaking points. Others include: 1) Designing the game for consoles (Xbox1, PS4 etc.) 2) Designing the game without perma-death 3) Designing a game with multi-player in mind etc. With all of these, one can simply argue "well it doesn't affect you, since all of these things would be optional. Simply don't play the game on a console, don't play multi-player, and just dismiss party members who fall in battle! Problem solved!". But that doesn't address the argument. Some of us backed this game because we were specifically promised an "old school" IE experience. Had they, instead, promised us "the modern Dragon Age experience" I wouldn't have given them a single penny of my money. Enough of this. It's my turn now make suggestions. PoE does not have a respec feature because that's not the type of game it was designed to be. Deal with it. Cheat, download mods, grab your skyrim buddies at the Nexus and ask them to modernize the game to your own specifications. Or, just stick around here and whine about how unfair life is for another 5 pages. Either way, problem solved. ----- Okay so you argue the issue is game design. I'm assuming that the implication here is that if respec is added, it will change many other aspects of the game. Much like how games designed for console always have a "console optimized" UI even on PC. Sooo I'm going to say this is absolute BS. Adding a respec option in the game literally changes nothing else. This is not a wide, sweeping design decision like targeting consoles is. It's literally just a guy that sells a potion that lets you redistribute your talents. NOTHING else changes in the game, and my proposed solution would mean that the game wouldn't change for you at all if you choose to disable it. Also, to the other two examples you mentioned... While PoE may technically have permadeath, you almost have to be trying to kill your characters off to lose one because of how health and endurance work. One of my characters gets knocked out in nearly every hard fight, and then they just get up to fight again. And as for multiplayer, it can be good and bad. Divinity Original Sin had awesome multiplayer, it is not always a bad thing.

So good news to anyone who wants to respec. The IE mod which allows you to respec via a console command has been updated to work with the latest version of PoE! You can get the mod here: http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/1/? And you can find the console command to respec here: http://rien-ici.com/iemod/console

------------- No problem

---- I wasn't citing mods to say respec was in IE games. I was citing them to say that I DID respec in IE games and, contrary to their argument, it did not ruin my experience.

__________________________________________ False premise. Since we're talking about Pillars of Eternity, there are only 5 applicable RPGs. 1)Baldurs Gate 2)Icewind Dale 3)Planescape Torment 4)Baldurs Gate 2 5)Icewind Dale 2 None of them had a respec feature. And I'm not going to bother discussing Mods because that's a complete *red herring* and you know it. (why are you even here asking for a respec feature for PoE, when you know full well that someone will eventually create a mod that lets you do pretty much any type of editing to the game?) ------ I'm here discussing it because some of you guys are arguing that, in principle, offering a respec option is bad. Your standpoint seems to be staunchly against respec, so much so that you don't even want it allowed as an option for other people to do even if you can be completely isolated from it. And I want to argue against that because I think it is a selfish viewpoint. You are essentially arguing that you never want an option added to the game that many people want, even if it won't effect you at all. And the only reason for this is your personal standard of what an RPG should be. But not everyone has that standard...people enjoy games for different reasons and I don't think you should try to tell them that they are enjoying it "wrong." Now in the case of POE, if I were Obsidian I wouldn't bother with a respec at this point. Because as we all know, there will be a respec mod out probably within a week. That said, my argument still stands. I don't see the merit in arguing against an optional feature that you don't like when other people want it.

-------------------------------------------------------- Because the Easy setting has a function: To trivialize combat for players who are playing for the story not the combat. And the HUGE difference between an "easy" setting and a respect feature is that the former leaves all choice and consequence, and all RPG elements intact. The latter does not. ------------ Given that just about every applicable RPG game either has respec built in, or a quickly release mod for respec, I'm going to say that respec also has a function. In fact, I will tell you that function: 1. To avoid locking players into decisions made when they don't understand the system well. 2. To discourage "cookie cutter" builds made by every player for fear of being gimped if they try to spec themselves. 3. To allow players who enjoy trying different builds to do that without spending 60 hours per build. Further, easy difficulty is MUCH more work to implement than a respec function. Which means it is a bigger drain on the developer's resources, so there's really no argument that implementing an optional respec would cause other features to be dropped from the game. Finally, remember that YOU can play the game without respec in it at all. So once again, what is your issue with other people playing the game in a way they enjoy that has no effect on your enjoyment of the game whatsoever?

-------------------------- What difficulty mode do you play on? If it's anything other than "Easy," then why don't you have a huge problem with Easy difficulty existing? After all, that clearly removes consequence from the game since all the content will be inherently easier to beat.

------------------ Just want to point out that I used a trainer in every single IE game to respec and it did not ruin the game. It's not like people weren't respeccing their characters back in the 90's. Hell, I even respec my character in pen and paper D&D, and most DMs never really have an issue with it.

Ooookay guys. I see a lot of strawman arguments flying around here that basically assume the worst kind of respec solution possible and then argue against that. So here is my challenge to you guys that oppose respec. I am going to present a respec solution that I think would please everyone. If you have a problem with this solution, please argue specifically against it. If you do not have a problem with this solution, then say so, so we can lay this argument to rest. Here is my solution: 1. Respec will be an optional feature that can be turned on or off at the start of a new game, similar to ironman mode. Once you start the game, you cannot change it, and there will be an achievement for beating the game with respec off. 2. If you opt to have Respec in your game, then to respec you will need to go to a major town and pay an NPC some amount of gold when you respec. 3. Respec will essentially just let you choose every level up benefit again, but will not let you choose a new class or race. 4. Every character in your party will be respeccable. Please let me know what the issues are with that solution. Bear in mind that if you don't want respec in your game, you can just turn it off at the beginning and you will never know it exists.

Getting bored with a game because its combat is too monotonous is a specific gripe about the monotony of combat, not of the way one built their character. But if the argument is that "I built my character a certain way, and now he's too boring", then the game already offers a solution. Make a party. This IS a party based game, remember? And the combat isn't about just your character, it's about your whole party. I think vanilla fighters in PoE are relatively dull no matter how you build them. But that's totally fine. I'll simply wind Eder up and let him do his own thing in combat, while I take full control and management of my Barbarian, my Monk and my Cipher. The argument applies to every character in the party. Maybe you want to try a specific build for your party but you've already invested a lot of talents. I frequently respecced my party in WL2 and NWN2: Storm of Zehir for this reason. Without a respec, the only way to do this would be to literally start from scratch and go through ALL of the game again just to try something else. Anyway, I want to say that I think the way you want to play the game is entirely valid. I completely get the appeal of wanting to play a more hardcore mode with no respec, and other difficult restrictions, and sometimes even I like playing like that. But I also find great enjoyment in trying out different party/character builds and seeing how they work. What I don't get is why you have an issue with people respeccing their characters when it literally has no effect on you whatsoever. I mean, if they let you check a box in the beginning that disabled respec, or if they have an achievement for beating the game without respeccing...then how does the game including a respec option hurt you at all?

Respec isn't just for if you screwed up your character. The reason I like respec so much is I always get bored with my character and want to try something new, but i don't want to go through 30 hours of content again to do so. Respeccing helps me keep interested and invested in the game. There are many times where I just stopped playing a game because combat got too monotonous. Also, I'm not saying that people should just throw any semblance of balance out the window. Letting someone respec for money is clearly not the same as giving someone the best weapon at the beginning of the game. But at the same time, imagine that there are players that really enjoy the story of PoE, but hate combat. Would it be completely unreasonable to include a "casual" difficulty setting for them that made every combat encounter trivial? It's definitely something I wouldn't choose, but I have have 0 problems with it being in the game. The whole point here is that the game should allow you options, but then stay true to those options. If I choose hard, I don't want a crate of legendary weapons. If I choose casual, then maybe I do want it. So when I say that respec should be optional, I don't mean that it is included in the game but you can just choose not to do it. I mean that they should just make a check box when you start a new game on whether respec will be in or not.

Wow so I was trying to find out if there was a respec option in POE, and I found this thread. And I've gotta say, all the arguments against respec seem like they boil down to: "Someone that I will likely never talk to or interact with in my life may play this game in a manner I disapprove of, and that deeply offends me." Look, I can get the appeal of playing a more "hardcore" game with really difficult fights and no respec. I like to do that myself sometimes. But why you would care that OTHER people may be respeccing, when you clearly have the ability to play how you want is beyond me. I also saw a lot of arguments that respeccing is "cheating." Well my response to this is...so?? Even if another person is unequivocally cheating by giving themselves max level right at the beginning of the game...what do you care? That person is playing how they want to, and given that it's a single player game, it is absolutely zero impact on you. Also, if you're going to complain about respec, why stop there? Why not rail against the fact that the game features difficulties other than "Path of the Damned?" Because heaven forbid if someone might want an easier combat experience in the game. All in all, I see no real argument against giving people the option to use a feature that you may disapprove of. And it kind of saddens me that people actively argue AGAINST the inclusion of a popular feature, even if it's made optional.

I would love LOVE LOVE a Planescape Torment sequel and would easily pledge $200 for one. That said, I understand that the D&D rights would be expensive to get, but maybe the game could use the Pathfinder license instead. Pathfinder is basically D&D 3.75 and it has a lot of "planes" lore that is fairly similar to Planescape. So a Pathfinder "Planescape" game would be extremely similar to a D&D one. I think that Paizo may allow Obsidian to use their license for much cheaper as well.