AnjyBelle

I'm a bit annoyed because of the 2-HDers. Aren't there enough really good estocs and great-swords in the game? I like my sword & board types, so I'd really prefer the good stuff for their style (I am aware, that there are good 1-HD weapons in abundance, just no soulbound ones except a certain mace).

Ok, thx so far. Interesting aspects!

There are some good, unique flails and even a soulbound one. Nevertheless, I none of the popular builds I've seen an advice to use flails. What are the reasons, that these weapons seem to be inferior to others?

Save before fight started: http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=92780872036849425560 Output log: http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=72272273114709465177

This is why I didn't know the word: I never played such cruel games!

Noticed that, too, on the Xaurips-pack, which I had to hunt down for a bounty.

@ iLurk The ultimate Ultima did not use the special 9999 dmg attack right from start. As you wrote, the fight was very long. What effect would it have, when you start and get wiped the next second? The devs were much more devious: They let you fight for ... say ... fifteen minutes and then it happened - or did not happen. Or - as Tigranes described - you fought a long time and all the sudden the Ultima deletes one of your party-members for good. To win this fight was not a question of skill, it was 100% luck. Really, we can be thankful that nonsense like this is practically banned from good games nowadays. Your question about low level content: I don't think, that there is something like a limitation in PoE. You have appropriate enemies for every level. If something is too hard, just go elsewhere, make a level or two and return. Of course, when you try to face a certain dragon at level 6 or 7, you will have a hard time @KDubya In my eyes immunities are a declaration of bankruptcy. Resistances? Yes. High resistances? Yes. Immunities? Cheap nonsense. Exceptions: It's ok for a creature, which lives in ice caves to be immune to cold and - vice versa - for a fire elemental to be immune to fire. But as long I can slash / crush / pierce a ghost (spectres and all that stuff), I see little reason for any other creature to be immune against any form of physical dmg.

I run out of ideas... how could I explain my point of view? New try: A dragon is... big. For such a creature a single human is just a tiny being, not more than a minor annoyance. Normally. It should be like this: Dragon gets annoyed by some "heroes". Dragon yawns and stomps them into the ground without a second thought. End of the so called fight. But because it is "high fantasy" the things run differently, as we all know. But we've seen other approaches, like I wrote about The Witcher II: They needed a ballista there, nobody even thought about facing the beast in melee. Somewhat more logical. I realize that I am rather alone with that point of view, but I can live with that. In regard of the "wing buffet": Where did I write that this attack is "cheap"? It's absolutely ok. What I didn't like was the randomness, as if the devs wanted to show the gamers "...look, normally you will die here. But to give you a chance, we made the wing buffet random." Yeah! Great! We don't win because we are "better" or "skilled", we win because we were lucky. What an achievement! "..hey, did you hear? A bunch of loonies was lucky and killed the dragon, because the old beast was too stupid to fight! I just hope they shove off soon. Don't like the idea to have these crazies around...." I love challenges. I love tough fights. I love to see, that I developed my party in a good way. When I can't win I start over and try it again, with a different approach. But I need - said it often enough meanwhile - a certain logic. If you are lucky with the things how they are - good for you. Before I forget: "High fantasy" does not necessarily exclude comprehensibility. PS.: I agree 100% to what you wrote about the FF VII Ultimas. Cheap and cheating.

@ Tigranes I think we can agree, when I say: You derive pleasure from such fights and I don't. Not to discuss, because it's a matter of personal preference / taste. My above examples are not part of PoE, just milestones on my way to become fed up with that kind of stuff. BTW, the "9999 dmg to all in the party" is an easy one: I saw it in FF VII, when I fought the strongest Ultima Weapon. It had a special attack which inevitably wiped the party. Sometimes it used it, sometimes not. But that was not a dragon and therefore not an example for this thread. The said wing buffet occurred in BG II, IIRC. It didn't necessarily kill everybody, but make them prone to get stomped, roasted or slashed by the claws. Of course there was a "not cheap" way to win, too. You liked it, I didn't. See my OP: It's not because these fights are tough. Tough fights are an integral component of any good RPG. For me it's the illogicality. But of course, that's just me.

@ Tigranes Come on now, I know you can do better Please read my OP again and then show me, where I wrote "...only beatable by cheap tricks..." Your proposal of "...one or two tries make their strengths and weaknesses very clear..." is called "meta gaming". Some consider this close to cheating, right? So, let's get back to the matter and stop constructing arguments. In my eyes a good design enables the player to win fights by using skills and talents, doing preparing quests, acquire appropriate equipment and so on. Whenever luck, random generation of enemy moves (examples below) and / or a "cheap trick" to win is involved, I don't like it. Just to give the player some totally op monsters to chew on is certainly not ... innovative. Of that sort we had enough during the last 30 years. More than enough in my really not so humble opinion. Examples: In one game of the past the dragon had an attack called "wing buffet". Sometimes he used it, sometimes not. If he used it, the fight was mostly over, party was wiped. Where is the logic? Why should someone not use the best weapon when danger is imminent? With "luck" I don't mean the dice rolls. It's more like that what we saw in some MMOs, when there is a chance for a positive event of 0,000001% to occur.

What a ridiculous nonsense Perhaps you should upgrade your 386 to something more.... common and not blame the manufacturer for deficits on your side?

I like the idea. With my words: Make a small quest around a dragon. The reward is a secret about a weakness and / or an item which would debuff the beast for some seconds etc. Example: Item debuffs Alpine Dragon's crush immunity and lowers it to "resistant"; secret reveals a weakness against mind-spells, etc. The "die hards" can run heads on into battle, nevertheless. The cunning player would use the item / the secret and not have the feeling about a "cheap victory".

Because I forgot to turn in the quest for the ogre in Od Nua, level 3, I came back much later. After finishing the quest I opened the hidden door by placing the sabre into the statues hands. When I did this, the sabre was "exceptional", because I enchanted it. When I took it back, the enchantment was gone, now it was "fine" again.

Well, in regard of my OP... does he actually shift "as soon as possible"?

Wait wait wait wait wait That's ... look, I have words about that, but they'd get caught in the language filter. Lots of four-letter words. But on a certain level, it's gratifying, because this is exactly the kind of stupidity that I knew was going to happen when they started talking about immunities. I'm not sure, if I understand what you want to tell us. Could you explain a bit more specific?

I would rather like more if they gave us means to debuff the dragon to a point where you could hit him with melee and/or ranged. In one of my fights that worked well with a cipher's debuff "fractured volition" followed by "mind plague". After this it was a cakewalk, spamming "paralyze" from scrolls, a ranger's shots and some hits from a sabre. With another party, in which I had neither a cipher nor a ranger I got wiped, wiped, wiped. Conclusion: Have the right party, have the right spells and you win, otherwise you have at least a hard time.

It's hard to comprehend for someone not knowing about scripting, coding and the like. They had a good AI in NWN 2, significantly influenced by Tony K., a modder. Why is it so hard to make something similar for PoE?

Read first post. Of course there were several methods to win, but "feeblemind" was the cheapest. @ others To clarify this: I have nothing against (high fantasy) dragons. But as FlintLockJazz wrote, why must there be always a fight involved? Why must they almost always be the "evil" ones? And once more: Nothing against tough fights which require a lot of skill from the player in terms of knowing how the game mechanics work, knowing the strength and weakness of the player-character(s) and using a clever tactic - not just cheap tricks. But IMO there is a fine difference between a "tough fight" and a "fight against something totally op", winnable only by accident, with enough luck and / or a cheap trick.

Bah.... spare me the sophism.

Look, it's not about tactics. Until now I won every fight against dragons in any game, even without cheap tricks. Further, I have nothing against "....something to chew on...". As I wrote, give us more enemies like Raedric's second form, make it even harder. I admit, that my hate against fights like those against dragons comes form another point of view: I simply cannot totally neglect logic and common sense. I know, I know"...this is a fantasy game, no logic must be involved..." etc. But ok, we MUST have dragons for some "...hardcore gamers" as you call them. Then make it like in Fallout 3 against these ultimate uber hyper mutants. For these guy a tactical nuclear weapon was needed or at least strongly advised. That had some logic, but was a challenge, too.

If I remember correctly, the first timeI had to fight against dragons was in Baldurs Gate 2. After that a fight against dragons seems to be mandatory for almost every AD&D game (e.g NWN 2), was adopted by Dragon Age and many other games. Mostly it goes like this: I meet dragon first time. I get butchered, one hitted, slaughtered and ...how was this new word? ... gibbed. I try again, same result. I read forum and learn about a cheap trick. I fight again and win. In BG 2 it was the spell "feeblemind", in NWN 2 fire protection plus two mages (Sand and Qara) casting "Isaac's Greater Missile Storm" after debuffing the dragon with "Mordekainen's Disjunction". In DA:O it was a question of level, in DA II it was simply reflex based and finally in DA:I have a high enough level and Sera use her ultimate bow skill. Try to fight all these dragons in a regular way and you'll enter a valley of tears and frustration OR figure out the cheap trick. What a nonsense. It's like some ants fight a wolf and win, because there is an ant-mage and the wolf is too stupid to stomp them simply into the ground during the castingtime. The only halfways acceptable dragonfights I have seen in "The Witcher II", where a ballista was needed to bring the beast down. If I remember correctly something similar happened in Dungeon Siege II, too. Anything else is nonsense. Mass wins over class, no matter what spells the class knows or how fast the tiny being can use her bow. The question: Must we really have this again and again just because of some "I-solo-this-game-with-a-mage-at-ultra-hard"-gamers who need this kind of a ... uhm ... challenge because they can't afford the lady in leather with the whip? I am aware that most of these fights are not necessary to progress in the games, they're (thankfully) just optional. But then there is the old school gamer, who can''t leave a game before having completed everything... Although I HATE minigames like the ballista shootings in TW 2 and DS 2, I'd prefer that over the tedious (or cheap) battles we've had in the past. Give us some other hard bosses like but let the dragons rest in peace. Cant EDIT: Dragons being in the game is common knowledge. I did spoiler tag a detail that's a giveaway, though.

Ok, here the link for the save: http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=08144553187714752042 Here the log: http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=08179176385465881843 I hope it works.

Ok, now I understand. Thx!

Hmmm... I try. In the meantime I loaded another game. Would an output log make sense under these circumstances?

English is not my native language. Although I understand most words, idioms and more or less colloquial expression, especially those starting with "f", there are still some words I can't even find a useful translation in my dictionaries. One of these I found today, in the patch notes: "The alpine dragon is now set never to gib". As I see when I write this, even the spellchecker of this forum doesn't know this word. Would someone be so nice and explain it ?