Darth Clumber

lol, thats what i thought by the title

Continue their adventures in the unknown region? Doing what? Seeing as how the Sith Empire ruled there, there are bound to be tons of tainted DS worlds like Korriban and Malachor V, so there is always the threat that Revan and/or Exile would be corrupted by the DS and become a major threat. Not to mention there's the threat of the Exile becoming like Nihilus and beginning to hunger more and more, a threat whether he's good or evil since he wouldn't be able to control it. These guys could not just dissapear and not be heard from of again, so they need to die to end it all. Also, if KOTOR 3 is a real sequal to KOTOR 2 and keeps up with the dark atmosphere, it doesn't seem like the type of game to end in rainbows and sunshine. It needs tragedy and death-preferebly Revan/Exile

1. Just because Malak or Sion are blunt instruments lusting for power, and Nihilus too in his own way, doesn't mean that all sith are. Revan's measure of control is not unique. Palpatine is about as wary, and Kreia is far more so than both of them. Besides, it's not like lightsiders don't resort to DS powers. And it's not a problem as such, if they do. The lies in whether they get tempted by the power. As Belaya puts in in KotOR1, "You should be proud of your accomplishment... but never forget that you still have much to learn.As your power grows you will constantly face temptations to slip to the dark side. This is the eternal struggle of the Jedi." Using DS powers is not a problem as such. The problem is that they usually give power to those who use it, and they then become tempted by that power. 2. Actually, that the jedi would both sentence and punish the man is part of their problem, as it makes them both judge and jury as well as the policeman. That's too much power for anyone. And who are the jedi responsible to in the end? Only other jedi. Nice little vicious circle, isn't it? The jedi did better in the prequel movies, because they acted as policemen, but did not meddle in politics. But of course, Palpatine skillfully used that against them, too... 3. Anakin is blinded by power BECAUSE he has a high medi-chlorian count and so is powerful with the force. He has all that power thrown on him, and that makes it far more difficult for him to resist the temptation to use it. After all, if you have power to stop the suffering of the innocent, but are told you can't, because it will corrupt you, then what would you do? I see Revan in a similar manner. I don't see him as the ultimate uber-jedi/sith like some fanboys do, but I do see him as one of the more potent jedi/sith of his time, and with all that power, he could not bear to just sit and watch the innocent die on the Outer Rim while the jedi order did nothing. He knew he could make a difference, and that pushed him to act. That gave him power, which eventually corrupted him. Yes, Anakin is overconfident, but that's not all there was to it IMHO. 4. I disagree. The fight was very evenly matched. Sure, Sidious has more posturing and "you cannot win"-comments. But come, the guy is THE sith lord - of course he has to brag. He just destroyed the jedi order and fooled the republic into becoming HIS empire. Surely that gives him bragging rights And it was evenly matched until Yoda lost his touch and lost the fight. 5. Hmm... "Qui tacet consentire videtur." 1. Albion- DS has no control over their power? Jedi are less in control than the Sith, the Jedi are slaves to the force and do everything because it is the will of the force, the Sith simply use the force for whatever serves their own needs, they are COMPLETELY in control of their power. Jediphile- using DS powers as a Jedi leads to the DS because these powers tend to be more destructive and deathfull, something that the Jedi try to stay away from and using such powers means you have ALREADY been tempted by the power it grants you, you have simply not admitted it yet. "To fall is a quiet thing," or something (Kreia says is it) 2. Albion-The Jedi's methods takes longer though, the DS is a quicker path to the same strength over the force. About Saving Private Ryan, the people were on a mission and didn't exactly have the time to stop where they were and wait till WW2 was over having a trial in the middle of nowhere, they had things to do. It would have been too difficult to bring him along so the choice would be kill him or let him go, the Jedi would let him go and pay for it later. Jediphile-which shows the Jedi seek power just as much as the Sith do but aren't willing to admit it. The Sith are at least truthful about their intentions. 3. Albion- it didn't really seem to be that even and shifting the whole time to me. We have one part where Anakin almost cuts Obi-Wan's head off with his own lightsaber until Obi-Wan manages to barely hit him off, and parts where they are saber-locked that Anakin using one hand against Obi's two hands and winning. Anakin being blind with power was a fault of his character, not the DS. There have been many Sith who know their abilities well and aren't too overconfident. On another note, the LS actually made the Jedi more blind than any Sith. They trusted too much, allowing Palpatine to rise to power and allowing Anakin to be seduced by the dark side, all without them knowing. Jediphile- I don't really see anything to argue here. You're pretty much giving the facts. 4. Albion- the whole time Yoda is flying around the room, just staying clear of Palpatine's attacks. Their postitions wouldn't have been reversed because Palpatine had a better position to fight from (the center of the pad) because HE wasn't on the defensive. It was Yoda's fault he was in a bad postion to resist the blast. Jediphile- Yoda was on the defensive the whole time, it wasn't very even except in the beginning when they were fighting with lightsabers. 5. uhhh...translation please?

Wait...what? The Sith'ari is supposed to permanently destroy the Jedi and the Republic? Since when was that prohecised? I thought he was just supposed to make the Sith stronger than ever.

What? His neck? Nihilus definitely has to be back in the plot of KOTOR 3 somehow though because we did not know anything about him and he was so powerful he doesn't deserve just the bits of KOTOR 2 he got.

Exactly, so Bane's recreation of the Sith was NOT stronger than ever.

That's one of the best story line ideas I've heard for KOTOR 3 and I really like the Nihilious theory you have and how much you found to support it. You Win.

My point is that it's a minefield beginning to do that, which you did by claiming characters in KotOR are far more powerful than those we see in the movie. But there are gamebalancing reasons for that, and hence it is best not to interpret too much from that. OMG, I said I was completely joking about that. I didn't seriously beleive that people during the KOTOR time had lightsaber resistant skin. What excuses? That's just an explanation. Besides, post-movie EU see Luke, Leia and the emperor far, far stronger than we did in the movies. Sure, it can be argued that much was forgotten because the jedi were all but wiped out by Palpatine's treachery, while he and Vader were the only two sith around, but much was reclaimed later with the re-discovery of Ossus, Korriban and other forgotten places. Besides, no matter what anyone argues, George Lucas has decreed that Palpatine was the ultimate sith lord, and in Star Wars his word is law. By new jedi order are we talking about episodes 1-3 time or post episode 6? I know next to nothing about the latter so I might have to leave this argument if that's the case. How is the emperor stronger in post-movie EU when he died in the movies? Please, PLEASE don't tell me he survived that fall, or that he was cloned or anything. Can you give me a direct quote? When he says that, is he saying he is the most powerful, or could he just mean he is the ultimate Sith Lord because of what he accomplished, and his ingenious methods of accomplishing it?

I don't need to quote, just read above. I'm kind of going back and forth between replying to the different people so it might be confusing who I'm talking to, and I'm sorry. 1. Therefore proving the Dark Side is better since even lightsider's often resort to its power. Doing such will probably lead you to the dark side eventually anyway. 2. Do you mean that Jedi can be great without fighting? While this may be true, I am simply pointing out that the Sith are not bound by any morals or laws to prevent them from doing what needs to be done. Take for example the movie, "Saving Private Ryan." A Sith would have just slaughtered the guy and saved themselves from later trouble, but the Jedi would be bound to treat him morally and would have let him go. Thus, the Jedi are defeated because they showed mercy and allowed an enemy to live. 3. Exactly, you cannot use one example of a fight between two people to decide which side is stronger. If I remember the fight correctly Anakin actually seemed to be on the winning side except he was too overconfident in himself, a flaw of the character, not the Dark Side. Anakin WAS more powerful though. 4. I watched the movie last night. The whole time the fight was completely one-sided, Yoda did not stand a chance. The reason he didn't have anything to hold on to was because Palpatine was chucking chair things at him and he had to stay on the move. And lightning wasn't exactly useless, he hit Yoda with it once and hurt him badly, and later when Yoda absorbed it, its power still blew him off the senate pad. 5. Jediphile really said all that needs to be said.

On that last point I was joking. WTF is the D20 rulebook? You're assigning stats and classes to a movie? What? And what's a Fringer? Your battle meditation point doesn't mean anything. So what if they didn't think of it before? It still means that the old jedi order had powers the new doesn't, and your exuses mean nothing. On your line of thought we could say that the Republic had better technology than the Empire because movies 1-3 have better special effects.

How was that Empire powerful? It lasted barely a few decades and was brought to its knees by a small rebellion. Under Revan hundreds of Jedi Knights and the entire Republic were losing to the Sith Empire, and I'm pretty sure there were Sith Empires stronger than Revan's but I don't really know much about them, just a little bit on wokkieepedia. On another note, how was Bane free from restrictions? Or the perfect Sith? He was nothing more than a powerful Sith lord of his time, there was nothing really special about him. On ANOTHER note, it says that the Sith'ari will rule the Sith. You can hardly say he was ruling the Sith when there was only one other Sith than himself.

It might not be inconsistancy. It probably could just be two different things. You don't use a gas mask to explore the ocean floor. You don't use scooba gear when the air is poisonous.

1. Don't bring video game powers into this, those powers were put in there to balance out the game so that light sided people would not be too weak to finish the game. Also, the Sith gain the amount of power in a short time that it takes a Jedi his life to attain, so you will obviously have more powerful Sith than powerful Jedi. 2. You ARE a slave to the lightside, more so than any Sith has ever been to the Dark Side. A Jedi are limited by the strictest rules and their own morals, while nothing holds back the Sith and they have the freedom to do anything to accomplish their goals. Take for example the fight between Mace Windu and Palpatine. Palpatine was defeated and instead of mercilously striking down his foe as any Sith would, Windu was held back by the Jedi regulations that would not allow him to kill. Although he did decide to break those restrictions, the time he wasted stalling was all that was needed for soon-to-be Darth Vader to step in and attack Windu. 3. Anakin was much younger than Obi-Wan, the reason it was such a close fight. Obi-Wan had a much longer time to train his abilities, but he was only barely able to defeat Anakin because Anakin was using the power of the Dark Side. 4. Yoda was incredibly powerful in the force and had 800-900 years to perfect his abilities. I have not seen any other Jedi able to do such a thing. I don't really remember the fight except that Yoda didn't really have much of a chance anyway. 5. This point I don't think can really aply to either group as a whole. The amount of bravery or cowardice is not the same across every member of the Sith/Jedi groups. You have to look at individuals' personalities seperately. I actually think that the Sith are less cowardly as a whole because Sith have nothing to fear; they are the most feared group in Star Wars history. I think that pretty nicely covered all of your arguments.

How exactly does breath control work? Does it filter the air to make it clean or does it just make it so you don't have to breath at all? From KOTOR 2 it sounded like you didn't need to breath anymore. This makes me think Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were using a different power because they had to use those weird little devices to breath underwater. Pretty much the only Star Wars game I've played beyond KOTOR 2 have been Jedi Outcast which also had speed and Battlefront which allowed Jedi to run super fast, so i assume here that speed is a pretty common power throughout history. What you really need to do here though is compare the magnitude of certain powers. In the movies we see Palpatine using lightning on Luke and it doesn't look too impressive. In KOTOR we have characters who hold up one hand and shoot lightning everywhere, killing all the enemies around them. Bastila's battle meditation. She had the power to augment the power of an enitre fleet. We see nothing cpmparable to this in any of the movies. Also, all the characters in KOTOR are way stronger than anyone in the movies. In the movies when someone is hit once by a lightsaber body parts usually fall off. In the KOTOR games it takes like a hundred hits with a lightsaber to kill someone. The old Jedi order obviously had some lightsaber resistance abilities.

I definitely do not think that Bane was the Sith'ari. The Rule of Two made the Sith weaker than it had ever been before. Between the time of Bane and Emperor Palpatine the Sith existed in secrecy and I don't think really accomplished mutch and then when this new way of Sith FINALLY accomplished something by forming the Empire it was defeated i think only a couple decades later and a new sith order was formed. The Sith were way more powerful at plenty of other points in StarWars history.

Jediphile, when has their ever been a wookie jedi/sith? I don't really know anything about Star Wars EU( aside from a few video games) so help me out here. Dark Wastl, I'm pretty sure that anything story based concerning Star Wars has to be run by George Lucas, not just movie timeframe stuff.

I haven't read any Bane books or anything but I read a basic summary about his life. The wookieepedia I quoted makes it sound like the Sith'ari would lead the Sith before actually destroying them, and Bane never lead the Sith until he was the only one left as I understand it. Also, did the Rule of Two actually make the Sith stronger than ever? Although the Republic did fall to this new way of Sith, how long did the Empire last? A rebellion and one Jedi were able to defeat the Empire. Bane is definitely not the Sith'ari

I guess... If Revan is counted as part of the old jedi order then there's really no argument who wins here. Revan was kind of a bit TOO powerful if you ask me, he can do anything! He's good with a lightsaber, strong in the force, a great swoop racer, a good technician (he built HK-47), a brilliant strategist (he completely turned around an entire war), a charismatic leader (recruiting all those Jedi for mando wars and jedi civil war), and he is incredibly knowledgable (he found the star forge, he was smart enough to avoid it's evil power, he knew about the true sith). Tell me ONE weakness this guy has! The only time he has been defeated was when Jedi were attacking him and his apprentice betrayed him at the same time.

How did we get from old jedi vs new jedi to our current conversation about the redemption of Revan?

Also, masks just look completely ridiculous without a hood or anything. The masks in the gammes look like they were meant to be combined with hoods. I think they need to choose a face for Revan and the Exile because it would just be annyoing having thier faces hidden the whole time. Still have their alignment be different according to your choices, but it would be so much better if their faces were free.

Actually, my point was that he DIDN'T truely crave power because, if he did, he would not have been able to go back to LS. The new Revan was completely different from the old Revan. Revan wasn't really redeamed, he just pretty much started over from scratch with a new chance. Events turned out differently this time and he became a different person than he did the last time. His current self was formed almost completely independantly from the influences of his former self.

Seeing as how powerful and pivatol Revan and the Exile are to the whole Galaxy, they wouldn't just kind of dissapear into obscurity after all of these events and people would want closure on their storylines otherwise, people would want to know where they went from here. This could potentially lead to later games or maybe books or something, i don't know. Personally, I would rather the whole Revan/Exile thing is finished and any more KOTORs after this, we just move on, get to something new. Because really, think about it. So much has happened already in such a short span of time, the Galaxy would just implode if Revan and/or the Exile had any more galaxy saving quests.

Did anyone else think that the Dark Side is a lot more powerfull in KOTOR games than the Light Side? When I'm evil in the games I can just kill anyone so easily, it's so much harder as a good guy. They could balance this out pretty easily though. Seeing as how the Dark Side is the easy path and the quicker path, I think that the game should make it a lot easier to get fully dark in the game and you become more powerful a lot more quickly. The light side takes patience and what-not so it should take a lot longer to become fully light side and it should take you longer to strengthen up. The balancing part here is that the Dark Side leads to a lot more conflict within your group. This could lead to possibly having to 'put down' a few party members who want to challange your power (show me one Dark Jedi/Sith group that HASN'T had tons of fightingwithin itself) or good guys might want to leave you. The first KOTOR did this rather nicely, because you wouldn't get Juhani if you were evil and at the end you had to kill so many of your former allies. It was kind of stupid how no good guys in the second game felt compelled to do anything about your evil.

From Wookieepedia "the Sith'ari was prophesied a perfect being, free of all restrictions

They both need to die to wrap this whole storyline up, and it would be boring if everything just turns out fine in the end. And Revan/Exile don't necessarily really need to be light or dark side, I see Revan especially as being somewhere in the middle.