Neckbitbasket

As I said, I love Wizards in this game, and I tend to play Wizards and other magicky types in most other RPGs as well. In FFXIV, I main a Black Mage and am very invested into that character and the story of the game despite EVERY SINGLE CLASS relying on some form of magic and mysticism. I still feel special because I could blow up the planet if I wanted to... kinda. I play an all-elements elementalist in my (currently suspended) Divinity OS2 playthrough. In D&D 5e, I've played a Warlock, a Wizard, a Druid, a Paladin, and another now another Wizard. This, despite the fact that Warlocks and Sorcerers lore-wise are able to get their powers far easier than I can, doesn't cheapen my experience. Wizards and warlocks in DnD get their powers from birth. That is the reason for that, while wizards take years of study to acquire power. But you don't see fighters rogues and barbarians tossing around spells either in that fiction Incorrect. Sorcerers get their power from birth. Warlocks get their power from pacts with certain entities. Also, there are specific subclasses of Rogue, Fighter, and Barbarian that wield magic. Barbarians even get their own special "shamanic" magic. Rogues get illusion spells, and Fighters get a handful of spells from the Wizard spell list and can summon their weapon to their hand. I recommend reading the Player's Handbook before making statements like that. It implies to me that you have little to no knowledge of what you are talking about.

As I said, I love Wizards in this game, and I tend to play Wizards and other magicky types in most other RPGs as well. In FFXIV, I main a Black Mage and am very invested into that character and the story of the game despite EVERY SINGLE CLASS relying on some form of magic and mysticism. I still feel special because I could blow up the planet if I wanted to... kinda. I play an all-elements elementalist in my (currently suspended) Divinity OS2 playthrough. In D&D 5e, I've played a Warlock, a Wizard, a Druid, a Paladin, and another now another Wizard. This, despite the fact that Warlocks and Sorcerers lore-wise are able to get their powers far easier than I can, doesn't cheapen my experience.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Wizard is my favorite class in this game, and I have a hard time not at least multiclassing into it. I have never had an issue with feeling like a Wizard while playing a Wizard, nor have I felt like a spellcaster while playing a non-spellcaster. Perhaps I just conceptualize everything different than you do. Five enemies stand scattered around a well. The wizard makes a quick calculation, and conjures an icy mist into the center of the soon to be battlefield. The barbarian leaps into the frontlines cracking the ground on impact, and lets out a howl that shakes the enemy warriors to the bone. Eyes red, he brings his axe roaring down on their heads, then retreats into the carefully placed fog cloud, luring the enemies into it. All except their mage who remains behind, and begins to chant. The rogue appears behind her in a flash of smoke, and stuns her out of her incantation, then summarily kills her. Meanwhile, the barbarian is clumsily flailing about in the blinding fog, surrounded by enemies, chipping away at them little by little. The wizard analyzes their wounds, and compares them quickly to the damage taken by his barbarian friend. A single well-placed fireball is all it will take, he concludes, and releases it into the fog annihilating everything inside. The smoke clears, a gentle calm settles, and the barbarian staggers back to his feet amidst the crowd of burnt-black corpses. (Obviously not a true story, and a super simplification of actual combat, but you get the idea. If I wasn't exhausted and felt like being creative, I would have used examples of the more interesting abilities and group coordination).

Ugh. You're going to make me launch the game up now, aren't you. Alright. Rogues get the ability to Shadow Step at Power Level IV. Wizards at Power Level IV get access to Pull of Eora (essentially a black hole). Dimensional Shift (two person teleportation/swapping places + a seismic pulse effect). Wall of Flame (summons a literal Wall of Fire) Minor Grimoire Imprint (Allows them to steal a third level spell from any other spell list in the game) Barbarians get Spirit Tornado at Power Level VII Wizards at Power Level VII get Delayed Fireball (self explanatory) Substantial Phantom (Creates a clone of themselves) Citzal's Martial Power (One of the best buffs in the game) Ninagauth's Killing Bolt (A spear that summons a Spectre if it kills it's target) And this isn't including any spells that came before in the power levels below these. Play a Barbarian, and then play a Wizard. The difference is night and day.

Fighters and Barbarians are specialists in their field with actual training. These are not laymen. These are individuals with at least as much practice in their specific professions as Wizards have at their respective levels. Furthermore, given how intrinsic magic is to the universe of PoE, many concepts of magic are commonplace. This is a high magic setting, remember. This is the point I'm trying to get across. In Eora, magic would be studied by anyone hoping to improve past a certain point in their martial expertise, and magic can be improved similar to a person's muscles because the soul is merely another component of their body. Learning how to harness it's power is absolutely comparable to learning how to harness the power of our bodies. EDIT: Additions/TL;DR Wizards understand the nature of the world and the soul with far more depth, breadth, intricacy, and nuance than a Rogue or Barbarian, but it makes sense that those professions would also have some level of magical knowledge, and an understanding of how to harness their soul to supplement their abilities. Similar to how a sniper has some level of understanding of math to calculate trajectories and account for wind, temperature, pressure, etc. And even if they don't, the soul being part of the body means training it is, at least to some extent, similar to training your body. Wizards apply their knowledge to exponentially increase the potential power and variety of these abilities. --Apologies for all the edits.

As someone who is friends with a pilot, you do need knowledge of how planes work in order to fly one. Or for a different comparison, do I need knowledge of anatomy to practice a workout routine that makes my body stronger? No, not really. I know that exercise has this effect on my body because I have observed that effect, and as I practice and experiment with different routines, I'll discover what works better and what doesn't. A person trained in kinesiology and with knowledge of the human body would be able to come to the same conclusions as I have, and probably faster, and even be able to explain them better, but you don't need to have a doctorate in exercise science to develop a routine that works decently well for you. It's just that someone who is will be able to develop one faster, and probably in the long run, better. And, they would be able to apply their knowledge to people besides themselves because it is based in a concrete understanding of why and how, rather than trial and error and intuition.

I think that a pilot who uses knowledge of aeronautics and engineering to fly a plane is in fact practicing those aspects of aeronautics and engineering. They would not be considered experts in the fields of either, but they are utilizing that knowledge for their own profession. Science to magic was your comparison, not mine. I am simply following your analogy to its logical conclusion. If it isn't applicable because there is a difference between knowledge of magic and knowledge of medicine, you shouldn't be comparing the two. If there isn't, then I don't see a problem with anything I said. People should be able to use basic, specialized magic without being a Wizard the same way that they can use basic, specialized science without being a scientist or doctor.

You are comparing magic to modern day science, thus I am giving examples of how people who don't necessarily devote themselves to scientific fields still utilize science to supplement their own. Logically, it would carry over that if Magic is a kind of science in this world (which is how you are treating it, given your comparison to the field of medicine), it would result in similar utilization by those not necessarily devoted to the craft.

Well, I think he also ignores any posts he can't respond to using his same three tired arguments. I think I have 7 posts in this thread, and he has responded to approximately 1 of them. Loren Tyr brought up similar problems with his analogies of magic to science, and how they actually contradict his own argument, and they were summarily ignored. Elerond broke down the flavors of magic for each of the classes, and they were ignored. And so on, and so forth. You are probably right, and Darkprince048 is probably only doing this to bolster his esteem of his own intellect. However, I would be more than happy for him to prove me wrong and actually respond to these criticisms, because I want this to be an actual discussion rather than an egotistical vanity project (and thus, ultimately, a waste of time). Also, @Darkprince048 Talk about hyperbole When it comes to communication, you tend to get what you give.

You are comparing magic to modern day science, thus I am giving examples of how people who don't necessarily devote themselves to scientific fields still utilize science to supplement their own. Logically, it would carry over that if Magic is a kind of science in this world (which is how you are treating it, given your comparison to the field of medicine), it would result in similar utilization by those not necessarily devoted to the craft.

This is a fairly bizarre example to be honest, because it pretty much proves my point: in a general sense, practicing medicine is quite widespread. As you get to the less common and more specialized stuff, you really start to move to the exclusive domain of doctors. But basic first aid, cures to common ailments, suchlike. Quite a lot of people know that, and probably more so in the past when people had to rely more on themselves (and still now, in areas where there isn't much modern medicine available (at short notice or at all)). That certainly doesn't require years of training, part of it is really just stuff many people will just pick up as they grow up. And there is also a whole range of people between doctors with years of medical training and the average person: nurses and EMTs obviously have a fair degree of medical training and knowledge, as do many other non-doctors who are working in or adjacent to the medical field. Any larger company will have a bunch of people with extra training, people spending a lot of time for job or leisure away from direct medical care will as well. And talking about fighters: I would imagine modern soldiers are given additional training in first and such as well, seems like a rather pertinent skill on a battlefield. So yeah, medical skill and knowledge seems like fairly common thing to me; distributed across a continuous scale. So how is this in support of your argument exactly? As a paramedic, allow me to elaborate. Superstition and wives-tales to "treat" various conditions, is hardly practicing medicine. If I were to drop a patient in your lap in respiratory distress and tell you he has a tension pneumothorax, without doing a google search, would you know what the hell was wrong? Let alone the method of treatment? And even if by chance you watched a movie once that mentioned it, would you have any clue how to actually perform a needle thoracostomy? Would any person without significant training? Of course not. So please don't conflate "an apple a day keeps the doctor away" with actual medical knowledge. As a provider that works with the public everyday, I can tell you assuredly, the public does not know the first thing about medicine. And while I am not a doctor, I have gone through many years of medical training. So, if you were to compare me to the fantasy equivalent, I would hardly be classified as mundane. I have no issues with multi-class classes like warlocks and battlemages, which I suppose a nurse or paramedic would qualify as, but I do have an issue with a class with no skill or training in magic, using magic. Similarly, a martial artist or weight trainer may be able to prescribe routines to someone that will make them stronger without necessarily knowing the exact anatomy of why, or only having knowledge of the basics. An assassins may know how to mix a specific type of poison and how to deliver it, and what it's effects on the body while still only having a rudimentary understanding of chemistry and biology. A sniper has probably learned all the necessary calculations to aim their shot and account for all the variables involved in that, but place them next to a dedicated mathematician and they would find themselves hopelessly outmatched in regards to actual knowledge about math. Take a pilot or a sailor and look at all the information they need to know basically on an intuitive level in order to operate their respective crafts. They may fully, or at least somewhat understand the physics behind all of that, but that doesn't mean they could explain quantum theory to you. You are treating Rogues, Barbarians, and Fighters as though they are children when they are in fact highly skilled practitioners of their profession.

Have to chime in here on one point (because I feel it's quite significant): Perhaps, then, the mechanics of the game should be taken at face value. Whether this is a good or a bad thing, I haven't decided. So I am starting to get it now. The people in this world are all basically gods. Able to do all kinds of magical things. Wizards just sit behind their books and study the various effects that everyone else is able to do, and when they want to peform these same abilities, it takes them half a year and a fancy book to cast the spell. Gotcha. Totes makes sense. Bunch of genius writers came up with this story, all so everyone could be equal! God forbid if the classes aren't all capable of doing the same thing! We might offend a social justice warrior! Oh, please. This is hyperbole and you know it. And of course game designers are going to try and craft a world that justifies balanced classes. Contrary to popular belief, this has been a common goal of most good gamemakers for at least the last two decades, and is not some social justice conspiracy. There are other games out there for you if you are looking for a low magic setting. The Witcher does a fine job of this. KoToR and SWTOR will let you play mundane classes or force wizards, whatever flavor you wish. Dark Souls there exists clear separation between magic and non-magic, although not much in the way of roleplaying. Hell, even Skyrim, Oblivion, and Morrowind will let you get through the game mundanely, as long as you are alright with wielding magic items (specifically in Morrowind as it would be incredibly difficult and tedious otherwise). Different games, different people, different preferences. I'm sure you can find something that fits your tastes, but it clearly isn't here, and nobody here is wrong for enjoying this game for the high magic setting it is. Worldbuilding is certainly an important part of fantasy, and this game is not without its issues on the writing side of things, but most of the points you're bringing up come down to personal preference, rather than things objectively wrong with the setting or characters. In fact, you really haven't mentioned any specifics about the game's lore at all.

There are a lot of players who want to play the archetype "normal person goes against improbable odds and wins". RP wise these are characters like say Conan the barbarian who distrusts magic and only uses his muscles and guile to defeat powerful wizards, or Garett the thief who uses some magic like magic arrows, but still uses only his guile and stealth to defeat incredible things like a demon, by stealing it's magic eye a-la "outsmart the god" story. I even had pleasure to play with players who even don't want to use magic items because it doesn't suit their style/definition of what munchkinism is. I understand your point, but I disagree with the OP's conceit that any game that doesn't cater to this style is inherently worse than one that does. Just like the Witcher isn't worse than Skyrim for being less of a character sandbox. Part of roleplaying is creating characters that fit into the logic of the setting, and in a setting where magic is basically part of the natural order, distrusting it would be like distrusting gravity (which granted, some people do). I also fundamentally disagree with the OP's narrow projection of what fantasy and magic should and shouldn't be, but of course, I covered that in my last post. I would be interested to hear your opinion on that.

I wonder how much you write in comparison when you do care lol.Care to explain how every classes' use of magic restricts variety in roleplaying?Sure, I can explain. So you want to role play a wizard. Great. How wizardly do you feel when that brute barbarian over there lights up his weapon in magical fire and tosses it at his enemy, exploding in a ball of flame as if he is Ares, God of war himself? And then that back alley cutthroat over there waves his hand and dissapears in a cloud of purple smoke, and teleports across the room to stab you in the back. All those years studying magic with your pretty book, and spells that take ages to cast, and any Tom **** or Harry can throw around spells like its nothing. Bet you are loving that "wizard". Heck, what good is going to medical school when some 18 year old is practicing medicine out of his garrage with a high school degree. Why go to school for nuclear physics if the tech is so easy to understand that my 12 year old niece could build nukes in the back yard. Are you getting it?? The idea of wizards is that they "focus" on honing their magic. Rogues can teleport, sure, but they can't do much else. Barbarians can create spirit tornadoes, but once again, not much else. (I don't mean combat-wise btw, just specifically with regards to "magical" abilities). The way I tend to think of these are as supernatural manifestations of their martial abilities. A rogue isn't someone's 12 year old niece; they are a highly skilled, trained killer. As such, they have trained enough to manifest very specific, niche supernatural abilities that supplement their specialization. Wizards, on the other hand, who focus on the intensive study of Arcana have developed a far more diverse and powerful arsenal of supernatural powers which they wield as spells. Last time I checked, Barbarians can't drop meteors from the sky. Neither can Rogues. Nor can either class fire missiles from their hands. This to me shows gross inexperience with the fantasy genre. D&D - the cornerstone of modern fantasy - has CHARISMA CASTERS who intuitively channel magic (i.e. Sorcerers and Warlocks). Tolkien's Wizards are literally divine entities. The magic in Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series is practiced and honed similarly to how one would train their body. Only the Gods and Priests seem to know how magic works in GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire series, and even that is up in the air. The Kingkiller Chronicles actually deconstructs this notion with the dichotomy of Sympathy vs Naming. Sp, where are you getting this idea of magic being exclusive to intellectuals from? Why do you assume it is so universal when it really isn't?

Not really? Fighters get all kinds of magical armor and tools that let them do different things, and ToB added in HLAs which let them do all kinds of wickedly awesome stuff. **** like Mantle, Absolute Immunity, etc exists because Wizards will get mulched by Fighters if they don't have them. Wizards are unquestionably more powerful than Fighters, generally speaking, but the way it's done so is still interesting and engaging. 3.5E and Pathfinder and 5E have all given them more active means of hitting things with sharpened sticks. I like that someone mentioned trash mobs, because trash mobs have ZERO PURPOSE in a game that's not built around attrition death. They just serve to make the game tedious and monotonous and holy **** I'm bored I'm gonna go play something else, especially when difficulty levels are just "enemies fall over when you fart at them" and "enemies have absurd amounts of defenses and health but are still developmentally disabled so have fun kiting the dragon's special needs class in circles for 5 minutes." The closest you come to trash mobs having a purpose is in something like MMO raids, but even Blizzard cottoned on to the idea that trash needs to be meaningful and playing raids at anything approaching actual difficulty can result in a TPK if you don't fight the trash packs intelligently - they're certainly NOT "go afk and watch numbers scroll across the screen," not anymore. Trash is generally used as a sort of combination palate cleanser and prep period before the next big encounter, often showcasing some minor elements of the upcoming encounter or setting the narrative stage. Trash in Deadfire is just the equivalent of speed bumps in an empty parking lot - we'd all really prefer to just drive around them if at all possible. Pillars of Eternity and D&D are entirely different experiences, despite their somewhat similar mechanics. If you were to take a 5e Fighter, and translate it directly into the Pillars engine, it would be boring as hell. The reason the fighter works mechanically in 5e, and seems interesting, is because of the collaborative effort between the players and DM, which turns combat into more than a simple sum of its mechanics. In D&D, you can invent possibilities and play off of the other players, while in Pillars you are one person in control of all the players, the world is generated and controlled by a game engine which operates, by necessity, under a rigid structure of rules and programmed sets of possibilities.

I wonder how much you write in comparison when you do care lol. Care to explain how every classes' use of magic restricts variety in roleplaying?

Also, shouldn't this topic belong in the General Discussion section of the forums? This is neither a character build nor a discussion about strategy. The poster's complaint is rooted in the lore and flavor of the game.

Bonus Accuracy, bonus damage, full attack, tier 3 Affliction, sets up Sneak Attack... SeemsGoodMan. For my septim it was the best Rogue spammable even before the patch. This is the part I don't understand, why did crippling strikes get buffed while soul annihilation was nerfed so hard? Seems like a bit of a double standard. Because Rogues lack the crazy powerful charm spells that Ciphers have, and Guile is not a replenishable resource. While both classes are damage + CC focused, Rogue leans more towards damage while Cipher leans more towards CC.