Darkprince048

Fighters and Barbarians are specialists in their field with actual training. These are not laymen. These are individuals with at least as much practice in their specific professions as Wizards have at their respective levels. Furthermore, given how intrinsic magic is to the universe of PoE, many concepts of magic are commonplace. This is a high magic setting, remember. This is the point I'm trying to get across. In Eora, magic would be studied by anyone hoping to improve past a certain point in their martial expertise, and magic can be improved similar to a person's muscles because the soul is merely another component of their body. Learning how to harness it's power is absolutely comparable to learning how to harness the power of our bodies. EDIT: Additions/TL;DR Wizards understand the nature of the world and the soul with far more depth, breadth, intricacy, and nuance than a Rogue or Barbarian, but it makes sense that those professions would also have some level of magical knowledge, and an understanding of how to harness their soul to supplement their abilities. Similar to how a sniper has some level of understanding of math to calculate trajectories and account for wind, temperature, pressure, etc. And even if they don't, the soul being part of the body means training it is, at least to some extent, similar to training your body. Wizards apply their knowledge to exponentially increase the potential power and variety of these abilities. --Apologies for all the edits. I dunno, I think the ability to teleport, render oneself invisible, instantly switch positions with a target, fly, throw explosive weapons, and blast people with magic projectiles from your voice are pretty spectacular displays of magic that rival anything the wizard can do. And they don't have a 4 second cast time.... The point is, these are not little feats of magic they are performing. These are very powerful effects from classes that are not really supposed to specialize in magic. Is that not what the multi-classes are for? For people who want martial and spells in one character? The whole thing is poorly put together and makes very little sense. These are all gameplay abstractions... They aren't though. How do you abstract throwing a glowing red weapon that bursts into a massive fireball? And an ingame description that states exactly that? How do you abstract the description of shadow step, where it clearly says the rogue steps into the beyond and appears somewhere else? They are not abstractions, they are literal And when was the last time you killed someone by shouting at them..... Outside Skyrim.... with a red laser beam from your mouth. Not an abstraction

How about a comparison that is more apt for the setting and topic? Let's compare an NFL Defensive Back to an Olympic Sprinter. Both are people who have trained & studied their whole lives to essentially do one thing: run really fast. Everybody. IRL who isn't physically disabled somehow can run. But only a handful of people are skilled, trained, have the necessary level of commitment & physiological gifts to be world-class runners. Cutting-edge elite athletes are just as rare, or rarer than top-tier scientists and doctors, and have years of exceptionally specialized knowledge & experience in their specific fields. Even then an Olympic sprinter isn't automatically going to be able to play defensive back at an NFL level, as football has showed us many times that just Being Really Fast doesn't automatically make you good at football. In the same vein, a Defensive Back who isn't as flat-out fast as his opponents can frequently make up for it with proper technique and knowledge of the game. Thus we get to how "soul magic" works in Eora. A Barbarian has learned that through channeling the power of his soul into his body in different ways, he can augment his physical abilities to perform super-human feats that we would qualify as magical. A wizard, after years of study and experience in his craft has learned how to warp reality at his will with the power of HIS soul. This allows him to command the elements, summon weapons & armor, or cast illusions to confuse & bewilder his foes. Like the sprinter & the DB, both use the same base ability inherent to every being in their respective world's people (running vs soul-power utilization). Yet like the sprinter vs. the DB, they utilize specialized knowledge in their fields of expertise to accomplish different feats with the same basic ability. Now you may not like that that's how the setting works, since you seem to think that only people who have devoted their lives to studying the building blocks of reality should be able to do things other than hit people with sticks and do sick gymnastics. But that's not how it is, and frankly you can't convince me that it SHOULD be that way. And yet, pretty much everything the wizard can do, is able to be done by other classes with no cast time and no magic book. Conjure weapons? The barbarian said "CHECK, and mine are nukes." Teleport and switch places with someone at will (a spell of the wizard) the rogue yells "CHECK, and I can do it instantly, over and over and over" Fly? The wizard says "nope sorry, can't do it.... Barbarian says "I can! like Johnny fking flame!" Shoot magic projectiles? The barbarian says "yep, I got you, and they come from my mouth, knock people over and are instant cast" The concept is broken guys. Playing a wizard blows in this game. You raise some example where other classes can do better than wizard. But there are more things wizard can do while others can't. Anti-spells, steal spells, turn someone else into a pig, devastating meteor shower and so on. You cannot say one class is useless because someone else can do better in some field. Paladin is useless because priest can buff the whole team while pal can only buff one? No he's tankier and can do some good alpha-strike, Ranger does less damage to multiple targets so it's no meaning to play one? No, they are good magehunter as u can easily dispel enemy wizard protections and then shutdown them. Deny one class's function by raising examples where they perform less is not very convincing. Every classes has and should some shining point. If a wizard can do everything others can, what's the point of classful system. Normal martial classes should not be able to do any of that! Magic is for mages! That is the point! Barbarians and fighters crush skulls, beat people to death with their impressive physical abilities. They don't fly, shoot laser beams from their mouths and conjure magic exploding axes! The balance comes in that wizards are ass weak, are unable to defend themselves up close, have long cast times, and in most concepts require rituals and reagents to cast spells. This means that a wizard may be incredibly powerful when well prepared and supported, but utterly vulnerable otherwise. That is the balance! The wizard loses everything that makes him cool in this paradigm. Wizards are cool because of MAGIC. But when every other class gets the same cool magic, that's pretty much better in a lot of ways, who the hell wants to play a wizard? Is this really so hard to understand? Lol If I tell everyone in the room I am a doctor, and everyone in the room knows medicine, does the title mean anything? If everyone in the game knows powerful magic that is very similar to my own, with no cast times, and no books required. Is there any point to including a class called wizard?

How about a comparison that is more apt for the setting and topic? Let's compare an NFL Defensive Back to an Olympic Sprinter. Both are people who have trained & studied their whole lives to essentially do one thing: run really fast. Everybody. IRL who isn't physically disabled somehow can run. But only a handful of people are skilled, trained, have the necessary level of commitment & physiological gifts to be world-class runners. Cutting-edge elite athletes are just as rare, or rarer than top-tier scientists and doctors, and have years of exceptionally specialized knowledge & experience in their specific fields. Even then an Olympic sprinter isn't automatically going to be able to play defensive back at an NFL level, as football has showed us many times that just Being Really Fast doesn't automatically make you good at football. In the same vein, a Defensive Back who isn't as flat-out fast as his opponents can frequently make up for it with proper technique and knowledge of the game. Thus we get to how "soul magic" works in Eora. A Barbarian has learned that through channeling the power of his soul into his body in different ways, he can augment his physical abilities to perform super-human feats that we would qualify as magical. A wizard, after years of study and experience in his craft has learned how to warp reality at his will with the power of HIS soul. This allows him to command the elements, summon weapons & armor, or cast illusions to confuse & bewilder his foes. Like the sprinter & the DB, both use the same base ability inherent to every being in their respective world's people (running vs soul-power utilization). Yet like the sprinter vs. the DB, they utilize specialized knowledge in their fields of expertise to accomplish different feats with the same basic ability. Now you may not like that that's how the setting works, since you seem to think that only people who have devoted their lives to studying the building blocks of reality should be able to do things other than hit people with sticks and do sick gymnastics. But that's not how it is, and frankly you can't convince me that it SHOULD be that way. And yet, pretty much everything the wizard can do, other classes can do with no cast time and no magic book. Conjure weapons? The barbarian said "CHECK, and mine are nukes." Teleport and switch places with someone at will (a spell of the wizard) the rogue yells "CHECK, and I can do it instantly, over and over and over" Fly? The wizard says "nope sorry, can't do it.... Barbarian says "I can! like Johnny fking flame!" Shoot magic projectiles? The barbarian says "yep, I got you, and they come from my mouth, knock people over and are instant cast" The concept is broken guys. Playing a wizard blows in this game.

Fighters and Barbarians are specialists in their field with actual training. These are not laymen. These are individuals with at least as much practice in their specific professions as Wizards have at their respective levels. Furthermore, given how intrinsic magic is to the universe of PoE, many concepts of magic are commonplace. This is a high magic setting, remember. This is the point I'm trying to get across. In Eora, magic would be studied by anyone hoping to improve past a certain point in their martial expertise, and magic can be improved similar to a person's muscles because the soul is merely another component of their body. Learning how to harness it's power is absolutely comparable to learning how to harness the power of our bodies. EDIT: Additions/TL;DR Wizards understand the nature of the world and the soul with far more depth, breadth, intricacy, and nuance than a Rogue or Barbarian, but it makes sense that those professions would also have some level of magical knowledge, and an understanding of how to harness their soul to supplement their abilities. Similar to how a sniper has some level of understanding of math to calculate trajectories and account for wind, temperature, pressure, etc. And even if they don't, the soul being part of the body means training it is, at least to some extent, similar to training your body. Wizards apply their knowledge to exponentially increase the potential power and variety of these abilities. --Apologies for all the edits. I dunno, I think the ability to teleport, render oneself invisible, instantly switch positions with a target, fly, throw explosive weapons, and blast people with magic projectiles from your voice are pretty spectacular displays of magic that rival anything the wizard can do. And they don't have a 4 second cast time.... The point is, these are not little feats of magic they are performing. These are very powerful effects from classes that are not really supposed to specialize in magic. Is that not what the multi-classes are for? For people who want martial and spells in one character? The whole thing is poorly put together and makes very little sense.

As someone who is friends with a pilot, you do need knowledge of how planes work in order to fly one. Or for a different comparison, do I need knowledge of anatomy to practice a workout routine that makes my body stronger? No, not really. I know that exercise has this effect on my body because I have observed that effect, and as I practice and experiment with different routines, I'll discover what works better and what doesn't. A person trained in kinesiology and with knowledge of the human body would be able to come to the same conclusions as I have, and probably faster, and even be able to explain them better, but you don't need to have a doctorate in exercise science to develop a routine that works decently well for you. It's just that someone who is will be able to develop one faster, and probably in the long run, better. And, they would be able to apply their knowledge to people besides themselves because it is based in a concrete understanding of why and how, rather than trial and error and intuition. You are conflating something that is common knowledge, with advanced scientific principals. My 8 year old cousin knows that working out equals big muscles. That is basic human biology. That's like saying because I know not eating = death, I have advanced scientific knowledge. You are purposely conflating common human knowledge with advanced scientific concepts. They are not the same thing, and you are doing it on purpose. Magic falls into advanced scientific concepts, hence why they have these people called wizards who spend years studying it. Trying to compare "me eat food, me get big" to science or magic, is ridiculous. As for the pilot, bad comparison because pilots are required to go to years of school to learn the concepts they will be using. So it is an invalid point. We are comparing layman barbarians and fighters to specialists in their field, with actual training (pilots). Apples and oranges.

I think that a pilot who uses knowledge of aeronautics and engineering to fly a plane is in fact practicing those aspects of aeronautics and engineering. They would not be considered experts in the fields of either, but they are utilizing that knowledge for their own profession. Science to magic was your comparison, not mine. I am simply following your analogy to its logical conclusion. If it isn't applicable because there is a difference between knowledge of magic and knowledge of medicine, you shouldn't be comparing the two. If there isn't, then I don't see a problem with anything I said. No, it is not applicable because you are purposely conflating using an object made by a practitioner of science, as if the user of the object is practicing science simply by using it. Do I need any knowledge of engineering or mechanics to drive a car? No, because I am using an object made by the scientist. Made specifically for layman with no training in science. So, your conflation is the issue. The analogy I made would be comparable to a soccer mom building a nuke in her back yard, without ever attending school. Science analogy Or a homeless high school drop out curing cancer by crafting a vaccine in his spare time, with no degree in biology. Medical analogy That is how ridiculous it is for barbarians to throw around conjured magic explosive weapons.

You are comparing magic to modern day science, thus I am giving examples of how people who don't necessarily devote themselves to scientific fields still utilize science to supplement their own. Logically, it would carry over that if Magic is a kind of science in this world (which is how you are treating it, given your comparison to the field of medicine), it would result in similar utilization by those not necessarily devoted to the craft. So, using your argument, do you think when you operate a cell phone or car you are practicing science? No, you are using an object that a practitioner of science specifically made for you, a layman. You are no more using science than a rogue who uses a scroll or poison given to him by a wizard. As for the rogue making the poison, he followed a simple recipe given to him. Mixed a few ingredients together. He has no knowledge of how any of it works or how to apply it. That is a far cry from teleportation, turning invisible, flying, and throwing explosive magical weapons that you conjured in thin air....

Well, I think he also ignores any posts he can't respond to using his same three tired arguments. I think I have 7 posts in this thread, and he has responded to approximately 1 of them. Loren Tyr brought up similar problems with his analogies of magic to science, and how they actually contradict his own argument, and they were summarily ignored. Elerond broke down the flavors of magic for each of the classes, and they were ignored. And so on, and so forth. You are probably right, and Darkprince048 is probably only doing this to bolster his esteem of his own intellect. However, I would be more than happy for him to prove me wrong and actually respond to these criticisms, because I want this to be an actual discussion rather than an egotistical vanity project (and thus, ultimately, a waste of time). Also, @Darkprince048 Talk about hyperbole When it comes to communication, you tend to get what you give. I have responded to several of your arguments and Loren tyrs. I suggest you do some scrolling. I have already clarified the difference between "folk medicine" and actual medicine, and how little the public actually knows about medicine. Medicine, like most concepts of magic in lore, requires years of study and training. Or do you think your gramma can diagnose atrial fibrillation, and treat it appropriately? How about neurocysticercosis? Think shes got that handled too? Not just anyone can practice medicine. There is a reason you have to go through years of study to do so. It has taken me years of study, research and training to be able to identify and learn to treat these various conditions. You don't come out of the womb knowing these things, despite the many web MDs out there. As I said before, if medical knowledge was so common the black plague would not have almost wiped out the human race, and bacterial infection would not have claimed countless lives prior to a SCIENTIST discovering that a strange growing mold could kill microorganisms. So, what were you saying about medicine not being a good analogy? Please bless me with your vast knowledge on such a common concept as medical practice... P.S If any of you bring up "first aid" as medicine again, I am going to have to laugh at you. First aid is placing a fking band-aid on a wound....

So you think adding some flashy special effects to the same boring animations and calling it "soul magic" is more interesting than using a bit of imagination to make some real abilities that fit with the archtype? How about the rogue using flips and rolls, explosives, grenades, throwing daggers, grappling hooks, and other gadgets? How about turning their stealth into a smoke bomb. And clarifying that is what it is, rather than suggesting its soul magic. How about giving the barbarian some cool animations with cool attacks. Kicks, normal leaps without magic flames. You know, use a bit of effort to make unique skill sets. But I guess I am just crazed. How about just a weapon throw that doesnt explode into a nuke? Rather than put some effort into animation, they slap some magic effects onto it and call it soul magic.

This is a fairly bizarre example to be honest, because it pretty much proves my point: in a general sense, practicing medicine is quite widespread. As you get to the less common and more specialized stuff, you really start to move to the exclusive domain of doctors. But basic first aid, cures to common ailments, suchlike. Quite a lot of people know that, and probably more so in the past when people had to rely more on themselves (and still now, in areas where there isn't much modern medicine available (at short notice or at all)). That certainly doesn't require years of training, part of it is really just stuff many people will just pick up as they grow up. And there is also a whole range of people between doctors with years of medical training and the average person: nurses and EMTs obviously have a fair degree of medical training and knowledge, as do many other non-doctors who are working in or adjacent to the medical field. Any larger company will have a bunch of people with extra training, people spending a lot of time for job or leisure away from direct medical care will as well. And talking about fighters: I would imagine modern soldiers are given additional training in first and such as well, seems like a rather pertinent skill on a battlefield. So yeah, medical skill and knowledge seems like fairly common thing to me; distributed across a continuous scale. So how is this in support of your argument exactly? As a paramedic, allow me to elaborate. Superstition and wives-tales to "treat" various conditions, is hardly practicing medicine. If I were to drop a patient in your lap in respiratory distress and tell you he has a tension pneumothorax, without doing a google search, would you know what the hell was wrong? Let alone the method of treatment? And even if by chance you watched a movie once that mentioned it, would you have any clue how to actually perform a needle thoracostomy? Would any person without significant training? Of course not. So please don't conflate "an apple a day keeps the doctor away" with actual medical knowledge. As a provider that works with the public everyday, I can tell you assuredly, the public does not know the first thing about medicine. And while I am not a doctor, I have gone through many years of medical training. So, if you were to compare me to the fantasy equivalent, I would hardly be classified as mundane. I have no issues with multi-class classes like warlocks and battlemages, which I suppose a nurse or paramedic would qualify as, but I do have an issue with a class with no skill or training in magic, using magic. Similarly, a martial artist or weight trainer may be able to prescribe routines to someone that will make them stronger without necessarily knowing the exact anatomy of why, or only having knowledge of the basics. An assassins may know how to mix a specific type of poison and how to deliver it, and what it's effects on the body while still only having a rudimentary understanding of chemistry and biology. A sniper has probably learned all the necessary calculations to aim their shot and account for all the variables involved in that, but place them next to a dedicated mathematician and they would find themselves hopelessly outmatched in regards to actual knowledge about math. Take a pilot or a sailor and look at all the information they need to know basically on an intuitive level in order to operate their respective crafts. They may fully, or at least somewhat understand the physics behind all of that, but that doesn't mean they could explain quantum theory to you. You are treating Rogues, Barbarians, and Fighters as though they are children when they are in fact highly skilled practitioners of their profession. Yes, rogues and barbarians are masters of their craft. But their craft is melee combat, and subterfuge. Not sorcery. I am not complaining about mixing poisons and using tricks and gadgets. I am referring to the barbarian ability "instrument of boundless rage" where the barbarian lights his weapon up with magical fire, throws it and it explodes in a massive fireball. And I am referring to the rogue who waves his hand turns invisible and teleports across the screen using magic. I don't think those are included in the skill sets of barbarians and rogues. Maybe a multiclass rogue and wizard. Or warlock (wizard and barbarian)

Talk about hyperbole

This is a fairly bizarre example to be honest, because it pretty much proves my point: in a general sense, practicing medicine is quite widespread. As you get to the less common and more specialized stuff, you really start to move to the exclusive domain of doctors. But basic first aid, cures to common ailments, suchlike. Quite a lot of people know that, and probably more so in the past when people had to rely more on themselves (and still now, in areas where there isn't much modern medicine available (at short notice or at all)). That certainly doesn't require years of training, part of it is really just stuff many people will just pick up as they grow up. And there is also a whole range of people between doctors with years of medical training and the average person: nurses and EMTs obviously have a fair degree of medical training and knowledge, as do many other non-doctors who are working in or adjacent to the medical field. Any larger company will have a bunch of people with extra training, people spending a lot of time for job or leisure away from direct medical care will as well. And talking about fighters: I would imagine modern soldiers are given additional training in first and such as well, seems like a rather pertinent skill on a battlefield. So yeah, medical skill and knowledge seems like fairly common thing to me; distributed across a continuous scale. So how is this in support of your argument exactly? As a paramedic, allow me to elaborate. Superstition and wives-tales to "treat" various conditions, is hardly practicing medicine. If I were to drop a patient in your lap in respiratory distress and tell you he has a tension pneumothorax, without doing a google search, would you know what the hell was wrong? Let alone the method of treatment? And even if by chance you watched a movie once that mentioned it, would you have any clue how to actually perform a needle thoracostomy? Would any person without significant training? Of course not. How about hemochromatosis, or chorioamnionitis, or a thousand other conditions that nobody even knew, let alone how to treat. Medicine, real medicine and years of training to identify and treat, solved those issues. Not gramma Sue-bob. So please don't conflate "an apple a day keeps the doctor away" with actual medical knowledge. As a provider that works with the public everyday, I can tell you assuredly, the public does not know the first thing about medicine. If they did, the black plague would not have wiped it's way across the world almost exterminating the human race before they realized it was their disgusting living conditions and the fleas on rats that spread it. And while I am not a doctor, I have gone through many years of medical training. So, if you were to compare me to the fantasy equivalent, I would hardly be classified as mundane. I have no issues with multi-class classes like warlocks and battlemages, which I suppose a nurse or paramedic would qualify as, but I do have an issue with a class with no skill or training in magic, using magic.

Have to chime in here on one point (because I feel it's quite significant): Perhaps, then, the mechanics of the game should be taken at face value. Whether this is a good or a bad thing, I haven't decided. So I am starting to get it now. The people in this world are all basically gods. Able to do all kinds of magical things. Wizards just sit behind their books and study the various effects that everyone else is able to do, and when they want to peform these same abilities, it takes them half a year and a fancy book to cast the spell. Gotcha. Totes makes sense. Bunch of genius writers came up with this story, all so everyone could be equal! God forbid if the classes aren't all capable of doing the same thing! We might offend a social justice warrior!

Final point, an anaology to the real world. Everyone technically can practice medicine. Ignoring the fact that being successful in medicine requires a certain intellect, anyone can practice the basic concepts. So does that mean everyone is a doctor? No, because learning medicine and all the advanced concepts takes years. Even though nothing is stopping a person from doing it, physically. It requires years of study to understand the concepts to put any of it to good use. The concept is the same here. Even if everyone is ABLE to use magic, does that mean everyone is going to go around using it? No, because it requires the knowledge to go hand in hand, and that knowledge takes years of study. So it makes no sense that some fighter or barbarian with no education in magic, would be able to use magic. And if they did have education in magic, they would not be a fighter. They would be a battlemage or warlock. Hence the multiclasses.

Firstly, even though PoE is a high magic setting, it's hardly like everyone's throwing fireballs around. Many of the abilities on non-caster classes can easily be explained as mundane or mundane-adjacent (eg. maybe tapping into something slightly magical, but nothing on the level of proper spellwork), in conjunction with the constraints of having to present it in a practical way. For example the Rogue's Escape ability can simply be seen as a mundane skill, an ability to maneauver quickly through a melee situation without being hit; with the visual effects there simply to make clear to players what is going on, and the 'teleport' aspect merely a convenient game mechanic (clearly what is shown on screen is not meant to be literal anyway). But secondly, why would a reality where everyone has magical abilities to varying degrees be less believable than one where only some people have magical ability, exactly? Certainly one can think of scenarios where only a few people have it (eg. it's bestowed by divine favour from some deity), but there is no particular reason to see that as the norm. And even if it were the norm in fantasy settings, that still would not make the alternative not believable. Looking at our own reality, human abilities and dispositions and such are almost invariably distributed along some continuous scale (and usually well-modeled by a normal distribution as well), in particular if they are inherited (and many of the ones that are not are of the sort you really don't want). So I would argue that if anything is the more believable default scenario, it would be the one where everyone has some level of magical aptitude. Fine, if everyone has magic, why the need for the wizard class? Everyone is a wizard. Remove the name. Remove the class. The name itself refers to a person who uses magic. If everyone uses magic the class no longer makes sense. Problem solved

You hit the nail on the head. I think many of these objectors understand exactly what we are saying, but because they enjoy the game, they will defend it as if they have no idea what we are talking about. Look guys, it is very simple. If you are going to have classes in your game, and you are going to name them by classic archtypes, you have to make them different and fit those classic archtypes. What is it about the wizard that most people find interesting or makes them want to play one? MAGIC. If you give that magic to every class, it makes the wizard a whole lot less fun to play, because he loses what makes his class special. If you relegate the difference to "wizards cast ranged magic and fighters cast spells to augment their bodies" you enter into the realm of making magic utterly mundane and it totally loses its cool factor. This really is not rocket science. To move on to the lore, and how it doesnt make sense that just anybody can use magic: If such a world existed where magic was everywhere and anybody could cast spells, what purpose would there be of a wizard? The name would not exist, because anyone could use magic. Everything we did would be based on magic. Nobody would bother making swords, or weapons. Why would you need weapons if everyone can summon lightning bolts and fireballs? Furthermore, the concept of magic, whether you take it from tolkien, or wherever, is that it is generally rare. Whether the story dictates that only a select few are born with it, or that it requires immense study, or it is occult and guarded knowledge, magic is rarly spoken of as ubiquitous. These are concepts that have been passed down from story to story. While its fine if the creators want to make a different story where magic is everwhere, but then change the class names. Or remove them entirely, as they no longer make any sense. I understand that the average gamer doesnt put much thought into these things, and could care less what they call their character. They just want to play and blow stuff up. But those of us who like to immerse ourselves in a world, need to have things make sense. That is all I am saying.

I wonder how much you write in comparison when you do care lol.Care to explain how every classes' use of magic restricts variety in roleplaying?Sure, I can explain. So you want to role play a wizard. Great. How wizardly do you feel when that brute barbarian over there lights up his weapon in magical fire and tosses it at his enemy, exploding in a ball of flame as if he is Ares, God of war himself? And then that back alley cutthroat over there waves his hand and dissapears in a cloud of purple smoke, and teleports across the room to stab you in the back. All those years studying magic with your pretty book, and spells that take ages to cast, and any Tom **** or Harry can throw around spells like its nothing. Bet you are loving that "wizard". Heck, what good is going to medical school when some 18 year old is practicing medicine out of his garrage with a high school degree. Why go to school for nuclear physics if the tech is so easy to understand that my 12 year old niece could build nukes in the back yard. Are you getting it??

You are right and for that reason, I refunded that game in 5 mins. Trash as far as I am concerned. But people today won't think twice about it, because they put zero thought into a character beyond "how can i make this toon the most powerful I can" Because you know RP is for homos, even though the first two letters in RPG are..... Give dem big splosions, and cool effects, and they will love it... What happened to this industry?

Who are you even responding to? Also lol, blaming "this new generation of gamers." I was responding to several people at once. And if you notice, a lot of people missing the point, in that I was focused on lore, as they went on about gameplay mechanics and how to make their characters cool and powerful, irrespective of any deep thought process. Which is my point exactly. This generation lacks imagination.

You all took everything way out of context. I never said I wanted less magic, I said I wanted the wizard to have a role in lore. This is one of the issues with this new generarion of gamers. Nobody has an imagination, they just care about min maxing their toon to be uber OP. They put zero thought into the actual lore behind a character they are making. If any Joe shmoe can use magic, then what role does the wizard have? What makes the wizard different? Absolutly nothing lore wise. "Ranged vs melee" is a ridiculous argument. And if a fighter is just an up close spell caster, cuz dats cool dude, then we have really lost sight of things. The concept of magic is very similar to science in the real world. Not just anybody can become an astrophysicist. It takes intelligence, understanding of advanced concepts and years of study. The concept of magic is largly the same in most fantasy settings. I mean, why even have classes in the game? And no, its not just my understanding of a fighter and barbarian. The definition of a fighter or barbarian is pretty universal, and it doesn't generally involve the use of sorcery... How many UFC champions do you know that are scientists? How many front line fighters are scientists? Its rare. Why? Because the qualities that are involved with each of those professions don't usually match. Hence the concept of mage vs warrior. It really is not that hard to understand

Well yeah I already uninstalled, unfortunately there is a massive shortage of good and up to date fantasy setting rpgs these days, so it is upsetting.

So I should be denied my enjoyment of Paladin-style characters with flaming weapons to smite their enemies? Or of Barbarians that do super-human feats (Shouting to damage enemies, leaping into combat) through strength & willpower rather than waggling their fingers? Should fighters not get charge because moving instantly through all targets, while stunning them, to attack my targeted enemy behind all the bodies in the way is too magic-ey for your tastes of what martial classes should be capable of? Cause the Charge presented in-game is too super-human to be non-magical. Casters already have many more combat options & useful effects than most martial casters, especially in AOE terms. Why would you take away the options martial classes do have? You're basically advocating for other people's enjoyment of the game to be limited to promote your own. That sounds just like the sentiment you expressed in the end of your post to me. "Why do other people get abilities with fancy particle effects when only Spellcasters should be able to??? Wehhhhhhh, that's not fair! I want to be special!" It goes both ways. A paladin should have some magical effects because the nature of the class. But there is an overwhelming amount of magical classes in the game. In fact, the vast majority are magical hybrids of some type. On top of being able to multi class. Why is it needed to make the only 4 mundane classes magical? Not to mention, it breaks the concept of a fighter or barbarian to be leaping around in balls of fire, and using telekinesis. What separates them from a wizard then?

And my posts are being censored....

Nobody said anything about only auto attacking, but if you can't think of a move set that's unique and doesn't involve magic, you are lacking in imagination and have no business making games. How about different power attacks and charges that don't involve magical particle effects and surrounding yourself in flame? How about kicks, upper cuts, rolls, dives, shield bashes, etc? How about rogues getting various toys and gadgets, flips, and dodges? Why do we need to substitute all these equally cool moves with magical ones? Because its easy, and because this generation is unable to accept asymmetry. "Why cant my fighter throw fireballs like the wizard??? Wehhhhhhhn! that's not fair! Boring!!"