Riftworm

If I could cast the spell of disparity on the devs I probably would. btw: 50 Reasons Why NWN1 is better than NWN2 Just in case you don't feel like typing out a 500 page memorandum to the question "what is it you don;t like about NWN2?". Or the 101 list by Mortis Nai is fairly comprehensive. But feel free to add to the list

That's your right to not agree with my approach. Though I'm upset, and you are not. I get enough "support" and "allies" from actual friends on the issue to care if you personally don't feel my list or anger is "effective". I don;t know that I was aiming to be "effective" rather than simply pointing out what I feel is better about NWN1. There were plenty that freely admitted to agreeing with many points in here to validate they aren't "ineffective"..enough for me anyways. So while I understand what you are saying, I'm not entirely sure I see where I was so outrageous and off the wall.

Then your earlier statement about $2k was needless hyperbole designed to support a sense of injustice. Thanks. This in no way is relevant to what Caliban said. As I said, if what you really want is for Obsidian to use patches and expansions to rectify what you see as flaws in the game - and many of us agree with quite a bit of those points - then why didn't you just say so in the first place and have a coherent front for a wishlist? Making silly comparisons and laying your opinion thick as sauce over everything is not the best way to persuade Obsidian or other forumites to join your crusade. Rather than you being right or wrong, I think you went about just the worst way to preach your stance to people. Perhaps now you want to drop the other stuff and get to the core - NWN2 is good, let's pressure Obsidian to maket his better in X and Y ways - but others won't let you, because you've started off like this. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't think you get it yet. I don't like this game the way it is right now. I think NWN1 is "better" for many reasons. I enjoyed playing NWN1 more than I did playing this game. I am tired of Neverwinter Nights 1 now. And God knows I played it till I dropped, and even came back after a break and played it some more. (5 years!) It's done now. I'd like to see NWN2 include many features and options that I and friends so enjoyed in NWN1. I made a list pointing to the ways I feel NWN1 was better and feel the list and it's title best illustrated that point. I was and am pretty upset at the state of the sequel. It wasn't to make friends lol - I have plenty of those that share my sentiment already. If you want to make a list and title it something else and feel it's less abrasive and more "warm and fuzzy" and want to make friends, more power to you. As for Maria, Yes I did get her point and she held the misconception that I popped into NWN when it was already long developed and patched with an existing community. I pointed out that was not the case, and I've been with the original since its inception.

I'll assume you just didn't read this part : "After 5 years of being a modder, a guild general, a faction commander, and a dm in the original NWN series, I did have certain expectations for this game. " I was on NWN1 from day 1. Well there were a great many things I needed my new PC for outside of gaming, including rendering out Maya scenes, working unhandcuffed in mudbox and Zbrush and multtasking between the Adobe CS2 Studio and Macromedia MX Studio. So the computer wasn't entirely purchased for NWN2, but it factored into the reason I decided "it's time to upgrade". You want the hard truth? It's isn't some farfetched zealous and obscure thing as so many seem to want it to be to expalin away my discontent. It's simply I expected what many did : NWN1 with better graphics. That's it. Is that fair to Obsidian or realistic? Probably not, but is it to be expected? I think so. I still maintain all of the same gripes with NWN2, I wont "go away" or fold in that sense, I'll still campaign for the sake of future patches and rally the protesters to lean on Obsidian for a unified wishlist, but for now I'm content to toil away at editing 2das, hacking the f out of character files, and helping enterprising programmers in the mod scene design 3rd party ways to break this game open so we can all rebuild it to our liking. -

Well now that I'm thoroughly depressed that seemingly nothing can be done about existing weapon models, armor models, skin, or game linearity, I'm basically reduced to grumbling about how I hope better animations, more monsters and weapons and armor options can be added at some point via patches. After 5 years of being a modder, a guild general, a faction commander, and a dm in the original NWN series, I did have certain expectations for this game. Maybe some were unrealistic and unfair, but I don;t think many were that far out of the box or out of line with what my friends thought. It's kinda sad that Hasbro would end up being the reason for so much of my frustration with the sequels state currently. Seriously I did spend nearly 2 grand on new computer in anticipation for this game. I suppose I can try to make the best of it until Dragon Age comes out. One thing is for certain I'll be in the thick of custom content to reverse everything I hate about what they restricted, in that sense, I'm still not helpless..because after all they included a toolset! ha!

I don't think those are silly complaints. Freedom to explore and freedom to be a bloodthirsty idiot (no, seriously) are both very valuable in CRPGs, I think. I wish the NWN2 OC were more "open" on many fronts. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm glad you agree. Does that mean it's too late to make either of those happen?

Blizzard games are visually appealing as well, and however "fantastic" the content, it never leaves the arena of what a person can relate to in terms of reality within the genre of fantasy. Admittedly I'm no big fan of WoW though, and that should be noted. I'd rather be playing what I perceive with my senses as a type of LOTR the movie trilogy in a gaming format. Cinematic reality in that sense. -

...is this game set in reality??...no...your answer, quick an' painless-like...in e'ery cRPG e'er made ya has a predetermined path, some jus' let ya explore a bit o' it more than others...again, yer answer...any other brainteasers ya wish explained ta ya??... :joy: ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ok so by your logic, It would be acceptible if your PC's were flying pink pixel monsters that spoke Klingon? ... You know what I mean, within this world or any RPG/Action game there needs to be some kind of semblence of reality (sans the spells or magical feats). That's why they strive for because that's why the gamer relates.

...couldna said it better meself, lad; well done...NWN2 ain't perfect, by a long shot (but, then again, what game is?)...a few o' yer points 'ave alot o' merit, if'n ye'd stick to 'em an' lay offa the sauce wit' the whole skin issue an' things like that, ye'd be makin' headway instead o' runnin' 'round in mindless circles...think 'bout it, lad... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ok let's forget that Obsidian was forced to Disney-ize a largely adult demographic game like NWN2, and continue with my previous thoughts "The same can be said about the NWN2 campaign where it's more restrictive on two fronts than the NWN1 OC, I both cant freely explore, nor can I attack a villager. These things may seem childish or corny or stupid to you, but they seem "free" to me. And ultimately far more immersive. Is it reality that people walk around plotted in god mode when they have no integral use to the story? Is it realistic that I have a predetermined path I cant wander from?" ^

They have clothing options that are far more revealing than those of this game. I'm sure a poll would reveal that game has way more "kids" playing it as well.

Yet it didn't apply to Bioware, or Turbine, Inc. for DDO...??

I already responded to him seeming to think I called him a "liar" in some way. I was confused as to why the actual D&D 3.5 source material contradicted what he was saying. Here was my response in case you missed it. "I didn't call you a liar ever. I found the actual D&D 3.5 material to differ from your statements and found it curious. Thank you for the explanation. Though I'm still confused as to why WotC would change their standards so profoundly for a PC game utilizing their rulesets, and additionally have so much say over the look of the game itself. How much of that is negotiated, as I can tell from your responses they seem to have a great deal more influence over your basic design decisions than Bioware ever faced. Something I'm interested in speaking with them about." Actually Vaclav pointed to some very specific comparisons of actual armor from the fourth century that NWN1 matched closer. And if I remember correctly he pointed to weapons as well, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since he seemned to know what he was talking about with armor that if he says NWN1's weaponry closer resembled realstic weapons I'll buy it. I can't respond to you calling certain opinions "nuts" simply because you don't agree with them. If youd like to be more specific and more diplomatic then maybe we can continue. -

That wasn't a response to my comments Gromnir. You seem more content on exaggerating my statements and answering your own exaggerations than responding to my specific comments. And nowhere did I say that was the only reason NWN1 was better than NWN2. The "skin" you seem so afraid of, is one issue out of 50. My interpretation of realism is realized and fufilled to my satisfaction in NWN1, but not in NWN2, for many reasons beyond the underwear issue. And what you consider ridiculous about my 50 reasons list, I do not. And the many others here that have agreed with the points in there I'm fairly certain do not either, or else they wouldn't have agreed. -

lol ..where did I even say I wanted nudity or "jiggly"? That's not me, and you misperceived my statements. I was referring to the basic underwear you see in NWN1 when you remove your armor. It's realistic to me, that's all. I'd like to know I have a body underneath my armor. You don;t have to be Artifical Girl 2 explicitness and porno ethics to show a basic model of the body clothed with underwear. I don't know if you hail from the bible belt areas or something but it's just normal to me to be able to see the models of a body when optioned to change armor in any RPG, I'm used to it as are others making the same complaint. Even family games like Sims are able to show this. Understand that there are more adults playing PC games than console. And even Console games walk that line more than NWN1 which reveals more than NWN2. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> you ain't asking for real. under heavier armour you typically has a layer of padding worn in addition to clothing, and we cannot thinks of any metalic armour we would ever want to consider wear without clothing beneath. what you want is unrealistic... and we suspect more voyeristic motives in any event. HA! Good Fun! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Was the Bioware team being "voyeuristic" in showing underweared models? I seriously doubt that was their motive. Mine is the same. Youa re correct in thaat underneath full plate someone would be expected to wear a padded cloth suit. Though I doubt there is any precedent for putting a padded full suit underneath a robe, light armor or 0 base armor clothing. In any case we're talking about fantasy where many here seemed to shoot down the notion that realism applied to armor anyways (I disagree int he grounds that they wouldn't be please seeing blue tights and a red cape ont heir NWN characters, so Medieval is referenced). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> will you make up your mind? you want realism or fantasy? and yeah, under robes, especially in a northern climate, we would expect full clothing to be worn. neverwinter ain't a city on the med you know. HA! Good Fun! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I prefer to see the models body in underwear when I change my armor. I prefer to see underweared models as an option for any host of reasons when modding. I'm no pervert for wanting to see that. To me the underlying principle is that this should be an option to me as a modder, not restrictive. The same can be said about the NWN2 campaign where it's more restrictive on two fronts than the NWN1 OC, I both cant freely explore, nor can I attack a villager. These things may seem childish or corny or stupid to you, but they seem "free" to me. And ultimately far more immersive. Is it reality that people walk around plotted in god mode when they have no integral use to the story? Is it realistic that I have a predetermined path I cant wander from? ..

lol ..where did I even say I wanted nudity or "jiggly"? That's not me, and you misperceived my statements. I was referring to the basic underwear you see in NWN1 when you remove your armor. It's realistic to me, that's all. I'd like to know I have a body underneath my armor. You don;t have to be Artifical Girl 2 explicitness and porno ethics to show a basic model of the body clothed with underwear. I don't know if you hail from the bible belt areas or something but it's just normal to me to be able to see the models of a body when optioned to change armor in any RPG, I'm used to it as are others making the same complaint. Even family games like Sims are able to show this. Understand that there are more adults playing PC games than console. And even Console games walk that line more than NWN1 which reveals more than NWN2. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> you ain't asking for real. under heavier armour you typically has a layer of padding worn in addition to clothing, and we cannot thinks of any metalic armour we would ever want to consider wear without clothing beneath. what you want is unrealistic... and we suspect more voyeristic motives in any event. HA! Good Fun! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Was the Bioware team being "voyeuristic" in showing underweared models? I seriously doubt that was their motive. Mine is the same. You are correct in that underneath full plate someone would be expected to wear a padded cloth suit. Though I doubt there is any precedent for putting a padded full suit underneath a robe, light armor or 0 base armor clothing. In any case we're talking about fantasy where many here seemed to shoot down the notion that realism applied to armor anyways (I disagree on the grounds that they wouldn't be please seeing blue tights and a red cape on their NWN characters, so Medieval is referenced).

lol ..where did I even say I wanted nudity or "jiggly"? That's not me, and you misperceived my statements. I was referring to the basic underwear you see in NWN1 when you remove your armor. It's realistic to me, that's all. I'd like to know I have a body underneath my armor. You don;t have to be Artifical Girl 2 explicitness and porno ethics to show a basic model of the body clothed with underwear. I don't know if you hail from the bible belt areas or something but it's just normal to me to be able to see the models of a body when optioned to change armor in any RPG, I'm used to it as are others making the same complaint. Even family games like Sims are able to show this. Understand that there are more adults playing PC games than console. And even Console games walk that line more than NWN1 which reveals more than NWN2.

What you're "just saying" is that I'm lying. If you want me to explain things, I will, but come on. I have no significant personal investment in defending choices made on the project a full year ahead of when I took over as lead designer. I also have no personal interest in defending the licensors. It's their license, and they can do with it what they want. The standards for D&D licensees (computer or print) are not the same as WotC's internal standards. In fact, Ryan Dancey said that they were different several years ago (right around the time when Valterra's Book of Erotic Fantasy came out). WotC can show Loviatar as a dominatrix with butt-piercings in Faiths & Pantheons because it's their license. They can also publish Lords of Darkness (drug use) and the Book of Vile Darkness (lots of crazy things) as D&D titles because it's their property. In fact, WotC can apply different standards to different products if they want. They didn't want to be backed into a corner when it came to defining acceptable material (whether for branding or maturity of content). I also didn't say that all of our armor and weapons came out of source material. I said that WotC was very particular about what they wanted. For example, close to the end of the project, they requested that one of our wizard robes (which may no longer be in the game data) be replaced with something that looked more "Forgotten Realms"y. They did not point to a specific illustration and say, "Copy this," but they did outline the particular things they believed would make it more appropriate for the setting. The result is the sort of Jedi-esque outfit that wizards start with in the OC. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I didn't call you a liar ever. I found the actual D&D 3.5 material to differ from your statements and found it curious. Thank you for the explanation. Though I'm still confused as to why WotC would change their standards so profoundly for a PC game utilizing their rulesets, and additionally have so much say over the look of the game itself. How much of that is negotiated, as I can tell from your responses they seem to have a great deal more influence over your basic design decisions than Bioware ever faced. Something I'm interested in speaking with them about.

Right, so back on topic I'd like to bring to the attention of J Sawyer the actual illustrations of 3.5 at WotC. I'm not seeing these outfits, and they don't seem to paticular about "skin" in their own Dungeon Master 3.5 handbook as you pointed out. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20030711a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20030705a Note these are both 3.5 pages. I haven't seen 2/10th of these guys http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20030712a And weapons don't look much like these pages http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20050708a Just saying..

Nope, it wasn't exactly name-calling. It was more like trolling. But it's funny that you feel the need to defend the one person you seem to share your little brain with. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> We were all relatively civil before you guys showed up with the name calling. I'm not "defending" anyone, I'm pointing out the flaws in said arguments, and as Volourn emphasized we are doing fine until the name calling attempts at derailment.

Where did this supposedly happen? The reason I'm not seeing you as being terribly bright yourself is making things like this up. Baseless hogwash doesn't go far in revealing much aptitude.

No I see the rather weak claim to irony. But Soulthief never actually called him a name. Though kirottu did use name calling. Which brings into question your own mental prowess, or lack thereof. The better question is how is Soulthief "stupid", for disliking a screenshot? The truth is he isn't and that's just silly. The fanboyism is thick enough to wade through here.

I prefer options <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Too bad NWN2 has neither. <_<

Yeah, he's been cool enough to explain things. Though I'm more interested in hearing what Obsidian CAN do, and not what they can't. After reading all of his posts here and at Bioware you start to get an image of handcuffed incarcerated game developers. It's always some kind of explanation as to why they can't do this or that to make the game visually more appealing or play better ect ect. I think it's bullocks that they have to answer to the WotC concerning subjective things like visual design within reason. As long as it's kept within genre, you'd think they were granted a bit more leniency. I see tons of scantily clad ilustrations at the WotC under the 3.5 section. Since when did they ever get taken over by Mormons? bah.. Yep and Yep.