[Azzuro the merchant]

With hirelings it all comes down to net points. If somebody has +6/-6 he's worth zero. There are so many hirelings that have +1, +2 or even more net points. You're always better off if you take those. The noblewoman is great for example. You need Prestige so that these guys visit more often so you can hire them. Same with the visitors that you can't hire but who still give you points - Lord Sidroc for example.

Strictly speaking, this isn't true. If you prefer security to prestige, then you go for the highest net security. If prestige is your game, then you place prestige higher. I would imagine, at a certain point, you could probably do with a minimum security threshold and then only game for prestige.

 

Since that's my gut instinct, Kograk probably isn't worth it. On the other hand, even if he were a liability, I'd still keep him for the exact reason Sking cites. Namely, because I've agreed to do so. However, in practical consideration, it doesn't really matter. In my current game, only playing on hard, I've hit the level max with the last act to go, I have good enough gear that anything I find will by and large be a marginal improvement at best, and I have enough money to buy whatever I want. I have never sold, even in leaner times, a single unique piece of equipment. I've even kept blue items that are in fact unique even if they don't have the gold border, such as the Engwithan scepter I had made. I have every intention of doing the same thing when I play on Path of the Damned my next run.

 

So, I see your point about balancing net points, but I prefer to try to take a more RPG approach and have the PC do what he or she would want under the circumstances.

[Azzuro the merchant]

Yeah, but my godlike priest of Eothas wouldn't make an agreement and break it. The best I could do is let him live there without hiring him, which, from a role playing perspective, wouldn't increase the castle prestige, merely lower security since he wouldn't be on staff. Being the good guy can be a real bitch, but that's the way the castle crumbles. Anyhow, the six security he grants allows me to eschew other high security people and hiring high prestige folks, like that noblewoman visitor I placed on staff immediately and my crucible knight man at arms. Of course, the crucible knight is good for both security and prestige. Plus, he and the ogre like playing cards when on liberty.

[Azzuro the merchant]

So maybe I should dump that ogre. Really high security, but a big prestige negative.

[The Pillars Hype Train Tyme]

Oh, I didn't understand that. My post was just goofing off. It wasn't meant to be a submission. I guess you guys could delete it and this one so it's not as cluttered.

[Max Level]

Oh goody...I'm level 14 and can't get any higher...

 

WELP, THAT'S IT FOR MY SIDE-QUESTING.

 

Seriously...14?  Did the devs actually want us to BOTHER with the side missions near the end?

I was poking around because I wanted to find out the max level in the White March out of curiosity. I think you are wrongminded, Bamboonga. Apart from the fact that you might get some good rewards in terms of items or rep for doing side quests, there's always the silly idea that you might enjoy questing because you're playing an RPG. The quests are their own reward. Sure, getting levels is always cool, and I wouldn't want to feel like I wasn't making progress in the game, but it's not like I'm going to suddenly realize that my levels are maxed (they are) and therefore there's no fun in continuing in my side quest (there is). Side quests reveal things that are interesting to me, specifically as regards my companions.

 

I can see the argument about not wanting the level cap to come too early, but saying there is no value in side quests without the prospect of level gains could be extrapolated to reflect an outlook on the main path also. It's like the kill experience argument slid down the slippery slope to encompass everything. It would eventually end up being the argument that unless you get every type of reward for every type of action there would be no incentive to take any action at all. There's a line, I agree, but there's a difference between saying it's a bummer not to get any more experience and saying that the only reason to adventure is experience. Hell, my quest was already finished and I got no experience for killing the Alpine dragon, but I thought better of leaving a large evil monster lurking over the town and still went to finish it off. Even if there hadn't been a couple of cool items to be had, I would still have done it and felt rewarded by accomplishing the goal.

[Avian Godlike]

I don't want my stylistic choices to boil down to purely a function to differentiate characters. More stylistic choice overall would be good. Not ridiculously so, but some colors and other aesthetics would be good. Before someone pulls out the realism stick, I would remind him or her that my godlike can switch boots fully with a dwarf or a mechanical assassin.

[Avian Godlike]

None of the above. I want more roleplay. More stats, skills, class, background, culture messing with dialogues, scripted interactions, npcs, choices.

I took the lore idea as being for more RPG elements, but I guess it's not exactly the same. I voted also for more customization. I don't mind them choosing the look of the gear, but I'd like the opportunity to have at least some impact on the characters' style. If not the haberdashery that PJ cites, at least something.

[Finally got to Durgan's Battery]

I'm going to do Potter when I'm done. Probably after WM2 is released. I'll have other NPCs then anyway because I want to try them all. Just like Pokemon.

[Finally got to Durgan's Battery]

The Devil of Caroc is a completely man made monster. Her monstrous nature is forced upon her for her very survival and, when that nature draws her to her imminent demise, she is once again transformed again into a different monster. The skill set she needed to survive is completely different from the physical characteristics that grant her new life, but balancing her physical characteristics with her old skills creates a powerful fighting machine in every sense of the word. What makes her compelling in both gameplay and in story is that she is so weirdly built.

 

I get you, though, Jerek. She's weird and yet I find I enjoy her. If my PC encountered her in other circumstances, the party would have captured or killed her, I'm positive.

 

There's certainly a lot to praise about the White March. Like I said, it all culminated in Durgan's Battery for me. The White March is like eating the cake, getting to the icing, and finding another better cake underneath. I can only hope that the White March 2 will be the icing on one huge heavenly cake.

[Finally got to Durgan's Battery]

I've been slowly playing through the White March part one and I just tonight got into Durgan's Battery. This is the Durlag's Tower or, just as good, the Severed Hand I was hoping to find in the Endless Paths. I enjoyed playing through Od Nua's old haunt plenty, and the part

where we talk to Od Nua and he tells us about his son is one of the reasons this game is a classic for me already,

but I find Durgan's Battery much better paced.

 

I haven't even been to much of it yet and already the backstory is compelling. It reminds me so much of the severed hand with

barricaded doors and ghosts giving nice little story tidbits with floating text wrought with implication of the impending doom.

 

 

The Severed Hand is one of my favorite "dungeons" of any game, and I'm really hoping to find some of the same opportunity for story driven side quests and cool flavor here. The outlook is quite sunny (maybe I should say stormy instead) in that regard already. The clues I've found are interesting, fun, and above all pithy.

 

I'm only playing on hard this time, but it seems to me that each encounter has a good variety of enemies with interesting abilities. This isn't just slogging through tough encounters filled with forgettable foes.

 

Overall, I would definitely say that the White March shows a tremendous improvement in design as the team learns how to use the engine better, but I didn't sign on to say it until I entered Durgan's Battery. Hell, even the animation when I put all the components together in order to gain entry was cool. Enough to yield a "cool" factor without being so drawn out that it's irritating.

 

There were two dungeons in the old Black Isle Studios/Bioware games that I thought were genuinely tragic, Dulag's and the Severed Hand (the story of which completes in Dorn's Deep). They are my golden standards and I thought I'd venture to heap some praise on Obsidian for approaching (and hopefully matching by the time I'm done) those two examples of great side story design.

[The Pillars Hype Train Tyme]

Looks like someone took a pic of an Obsidian corporate team building exercise to me.

[Chris Avellone says Pillars of Eternity was too linear and that he had little impact on the story]

I'm not sure the real issue is people deifying Avellone.  I know some people do, but the real issue is that he's one of the founder at Obsidian and it's jarring when one of the owners leaves the company with harsh words left behind.  I agree, reluctantly, with Karkarov.  I consider myself one of Avellone's fans.  I've enjoyed the work he's done and I'll always be grateful for the part he played in creating what is still probably my favorite all time game.  Nonetheless, I can't help but believe that there is something unsavory about bashing the project or damning it with faint praise, back handed compliments, or even jibes.  All this will pass.  Obsidian will hopefully make many more games.  Avellone will hopefully find something that helps him grow as a person and satisfies his creative needs.  I hope to be able to enjoy his work as much as Obsidian's.  In the meantime, it's too bad that his departure has gone from merely sad and nostalgic to sniping and bitter rancor.  That doesn't serve anyone, least of all Avellone.  Still, everyone has the right to vent embitterment and that venting has, I suppose, it's own therapeutic value.  I don't know.  I'm not a psychiatrist.

 

I've actually lurked here a long time and I respect Infinitron's journalistic efforts, but this story has always seemed too much like gossip column stuff.  I guess it really is news and deserves to be out there, but it just seems so seedy.  One thing I can say about Avellone, Sawyer, Fenstermaker, Cain, and the rest is that I wish I had even a small sliver of their talent.  To say I'm a talentless hack would be to give myself credit I don't deserve.  So whatever their inner turmoil or backbiting disputes, at least I can always respect their ability to create games that I enjoy.

[Early next year]

Keep in mind they can divulge things based on arrangements with the people who own the property. Obsidian might not be free to do much more. They have a lot of stuff to weigh. It would be nice to see more news, but that's life. We'll keep entertaining each other with intermittent bitching and hopefully they'll have an announcement or maybe even a game soon.

[Early next year]

I can understand that, whoopdido.  It makes sense, but I also wonder why there isn't more give and take in from the devs.  I don't post here often because... well... no one posts here often.  If the forum seems abandoned by the devs, that's because it is in fact abandoned by them.  They should be grateful for us losers who bump old threads and keep posting new things in hopes of wheedling out information.  On the other hand, I can completely understand the frustration in thinking maybe there was some new information when you see a brand new thread only to find more kvetching about the lack of information you came here to find.

 

Personally, not that my opinion matters, but think vague hints and subtrefuge would be better than the complete dev blackout we're experiencing.  Then again, they're the experts and I'm just a chump who likes to play games.  For my part, I have a brand new Galaxy Tab S2 waiting for their product.  If they put it out this year, I'll be jumping for joy.  If they don't, I won't become a hater and boycott them or some other nonsense.  I'll still enjoy my tablet.  It's pretty cool with or without the Pathfinder game.  As a matter of fact, Pathfinder will just be one more thing that provides enjoyment on my tablet.

 

So, I get ya, but I still reserve the right to bitch every now and then.  I can only hope they don't ban me for complaining about how much I want to play the game they say they're going to release this year.

[Happy New Year!]

I have a bottle of Glen Moray waiting for midnight.  The wife and I went out with friends last night since we don't much care for travel on New Years Eve.  I made Lasagna and Lasgnizza to eat tomorrow because my crazy assed wife has some weird thing about not doing *any* work more than necessary on New Years day.  So, all the cooking is done.  Tonight, I plan on drinking a six pack of Newcastle and then, in one massive boiler makeresque drink, downing a significant portion of Scotch.  Huzzah!

 

Happy New Years everyone!  *something about playing Pillars of Eternity on New Years to make it forum appropriate*  <.<

[My love letter to Obsidian (PoE review/wishlist)]

The party banter thing also frustrated me, but I just started switching from combat to dialogue log and you can read it all even if you missed the voice over or floating text.

[Camping and Food?]

I guess this might actually support your view, Hawk, but there're many examples of leaders giving not only extra food but maybe wine or alcholic beverages the night before a battle.  Not enough to wake up with a nasty hangover, but enough to wake up mean and spoiling for a fight.  Then there's also a small shot or two of some distilled spirit given before battle.  I would suggest that this is not quite as useful for soldiers in a modern army as elan is simply not important as precision and training, but the relationship between alcohol and performance is widely misunderstood.

 

However, going into battle with an empty belly and low energy is not a good idea.  I guess I'm rambling, but I think overall your idea does support somewhat of a simulationist view if that's your aim.  cheers!

[Shame on you, Obsidian.]

I was reading some old threads about kill experience points and I guess that's a big can of worms that people have been kicking open the entire time.  I can feel for the people who like kill experience, but they're wrong.  Granting experience for kills means the game is balanced for kills.  It does, no matter what people say, force a certain attitude about kills in a game.  Conversely, I fight pretty much anything that starts out with a red circle in the game and have not shied away from engaging in or even provoking a fight if the PC would logically want to do so.  I can let a bandit get away, but I must be convinced he'll go on the straight and narrow.  A certain bad guy hanging out in the Od Nua's old joint?  As long as I'm convinced he's going to stay there and not cause problems for other people.  Cut throat mercenaries, undead, or other people that pose a threat to the country-side I don't kill.  So, for me, lack of kill experience has actually meant that I've engaged in fights that have yielded me very little in terms of loot and nothing else at all.  I much much prefer the game that way despite that.  I'm not punished for those fights, I'm just not rewarded for them, which is simply not the same thing.

 

Kill experience causes a headache in terms of balance and other than rewarding murder hobo fantasies it doesn't serve any good purpose in a role playing game.  In an action oriented role playing game, which is to say something like Diablo, then kill experience makes perfect sense.  There is no moral question about killing monsters.  Once you leave town, everything including other people you meet is a monster in need of smiting.  In a game posing moral dilemmas, such as Pillars, there should be no reward for killing other than the loot you'll get and reputation you'll earn.  That might not be a good reward, but it will nevertheless be one.

 

There's no perfect system, but I think people should feel happy that there's a bestiary that yields kill experience of sorts.  That seems to be a great compromise and does reward people for killing but associates it with a task rather than the arbitrary act of killing.  The real error isn't taking out kill experience.  It's that they included lock picking experience.  At least, in that regard, they don't block off the experience reward for everyone other than the rogue.

 

As far as Durance goes, I thought the point of Durance is that you love to hate him.  <.<

[Camping and Food?]

I get you Hawk. Nothing wrong with old school or simulations. I just think you want to strike a so simulation doesn't turn into tedium. You food/camping idea doesn't strike me as particularly tedious.

[Camping and Food?]

This sounds a bit more old school to me.  I actually don't mind the idea of tinkering with food.  I don't think it's overpowered like some folks.  In fact, I think the fact that it isn't required means that the real downside of food, much more than any alleged resource imbalance, namely inconvenience, blunts its effectiveness for the majority of players.  That is to say, since players are not required to think about using food, they tend to forget about it.  If it were required on one hand and yielded a benefit, even small, on the other, players would spend less time insisting on going back to the inn for every rest.

 

Moreover, the fact that folks would get a better result at an inn but still opt for sleeping in the field for a smaller but still recognizable result would put paid to the power gamer gripe against resting in the game.  Most players, as I see it, are not gaming the system.  Most gamers are simply lazy.  Player laziness is the true heart of what players want, both good and ill.  Please don't misunderstand, sometimes the mass of players clamor for things that they'll end up hating.  However, snapping suspender game theorist come up with complicated reasons for players desires while overlooking the simplest, and I mean simplest, of player motivations:  laziness.  Getting them past that obstacle with a little finesse is the hallmark of a great designer.

 

Disclaimer:  all opinions my own, of course.  I would refuse to offer opinions in which I didn't believe

[Was the Adra Dragon in the process of becoming a god or a demigod?]

That dragon in the White March had soul twins (plural) and seemed to suffer from them.  However, killing/consuming them didn't seem to augment his power as such, although it did aleviate the suffering of their existence.  It's almost like a counter-adra dragon scenario.

 

As far as the gods go, I thought different gods had come in and out of existence.  Is Skaen even one of the origianl fabricated gods?  I followed the story, but I didn't pour over it.  Plus I'm old and dense, so maybe I missed something.

[What PnP classes would be a good fit for PE?]

I wouldn't say 'probably.'  I would say 'arguably,' which makes fine tension in the universe as a whole as people try to discern truths, and they always try, while trying to deny or disprove other people's truths.

[What PnP classes would be a good fit for PE?]

I can see doing a lot with different planes of existence.  It would be interesting and even daring to make soul magic peculiar to the exact plane in which Pillars of Eternity is set.  The idea of artificial gods would become a truly confusing but rich and interesting proposition if there are greater and lesser powers throughout the planes, some of whom might be genuine deities and some of whom might be truly godlike in scope but don't fit into the category of 'deity.'  The classes relationship with these entities and sould would be a good starting point.  When I see words like 'archtype,' I shudder.  If they're going to create pigeon holes with tons of splat book options that amount to nothing more than straight-jackets where you have to select these exact classes with these exact skills and perks just to have the 'freedom' to play this exact 'prestige' class, I'd rather they scrap the whole system and just go classless.

[What PnP classes would be a good fit for PE?]

I wouldn't go with standard PnP classes.  I would rather see something specific to the game world, like a soul hunter who is kind of the anti-animancer/cipher class or some such.  Explore the unique aspects of soul magic or the peculiar nature of artificial gods.

[Early Next Year]

Possibly 10 days away.

Right?

Gotta love an optimist!