Zelean

How do you explain that you find them both on Malachor V, then? Kreia might have been at his mercy on Peragus, but she knew quite well Sion had no desire/strength to kill her. Sion who I think is the most troubled antagonist in a game, never wanted Kreia dead. He wanted her to love him, approve of him, commend him. Sion would never have let go and died if he didn't grow to love and respect the Exile either. DS Exile at least. I wonder if Atton's sacrifice was meant for LS Exile, which would be relevant only if Atton was to Sion what Visas is to Nihilus. I think Sion is very well described by the following (his Ring being immortality given to him by the force, btw.): "He will never be rid of his need for it. He hates and loves the Ring, as he hates and loves himself."

Atton may not like Jedi, but he doesn't freak out when near one (Exile, Kreia, the masters). Extra-careful, pretentious, deceptive, yes. It is interesting that he does freak out on Telos, though, where we begin the journey of learning his troubled past. a) Perhaps because he was caught off guard since he didn't know of Atris and her academy? But then, why would just-another-jedi-more matter to such a simpleton he pretends to be? b) What was there something about a defensive stance? When asked about his Echani training, Atton freaks out more than in any other situation I can remember. I suppose this is just another glimpse in Atton's content that was cut. Still, I believe it was to be an important arc in his troubled past storyline. Hmm. I wonder if this was supposed to be funny : "{X-Box Live}I'm Atton. I actually wasn't supposed to make it into the final game, but I was created at the last minute. Blame my agent. I was actually slated for a spin-off to Jedi Knight, but I don't want to talk about what happened there." c) Considering that we then learn that his specialty was assassinating jedi, it's just too convenient (for me) to believe that he just happened to be on Peragus. Frankly I find it silly to believe that the emergency lockdown would keep Atton safe from HK. Personally I like the idea of Atton working for Sion best. Honestly, both characters represent ambivalence (wanting the force to live vs. to die). I mean, just look at Sion: his very flesh is torn between living and dying.

Hihi, cackle, cackle

So that's what's dripping out over the topic... Ewww.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Charges forward to defend Revan_Returns. Haaargghhh! Steps into something disturbingly gluey. Ooooghh. Dumps the shoes and walks away in shame.

Sounds plausible to me. We must not forget however, that Atton plays the fool card once too often. I have a feeling Atton was after the Exile from the start (and not the money driving him to it), but I forget if it was actually mentioned in game. Why else would he pretend that he didn't know it was the Exile he was talking to? 'Oh, wait. You're that Jedi, aren't you?

To both, Mellypie and Hassat Hunter: Thank you! I guess

Yes, those be the problems I was referring to. Crippled yes, but disabled? I at least, understand the word as 'not moving at all'. Harbinger intercepted the Ebon Hawk as well? Hmm

Kreia is disgusted by anyone who is not aware (of the Force), because that sort of a person is the most prone to be manipulated (by the Force). Also, she loathes machines, because they are unnatural (and she cannot understand them). Of course Kreia learns a thing or two of herself in the process too

Kreia: Ah, with the fear... is mingled guilt... it squirms in you like a worm. And the why... ah, and there is its heart. You surprise me - I could not feel it before... your feelings are a powerful shield, indeed. Do not worry, "Atton." {Taunting at 2nd sentence, knows its not that simple}If she is Jedi, she will forgive. And if she is not, she will not care.

I don't see how this contradicts what I stated in my post. Does Revan strike you as a person who would jump blindly in a situation? I have no doubts that she was doing much spying in the unknown regions. So she'd been there, but when realized her usual strategies would do her no good, she left them (strategies of course meaning people and machines) behind before building an attack. As for T3's hologram: it only shows Bastila was worried and that Revan took T3 (machines) with her, but not any people. As I said, Revan got rid of machines only after the spying part. Why did she return to Kreia? To tell her a) to find the Exile; or b) to tell her that an Exile exists. Both would result in the same thing. As a side note: I made Revan a she on purpose. I see no reason (a he) Revan would fall in love with Bastila. Revan never liked people, s/he did love machines though. Notice how Kreia mocks Revan a lot because of it. I so like this. For two reasons actually. 1. There's truth in it. (the reason I use "misinformation" instead of "lie") 2. Because of the percentage you distributed. Jediphile the manipulator, you so remind me of Kreia!

What makes you believe Harbinger was disabled? Just before Sion pops out the recoding shows no alarms. And if I remember correctly the captain only reports certain problems. Another interesting set of coincidences, isn't it? I happen to completely agree with Kreia on coincidences, really. Notice how only Kreia and Sion have no lackeys in the game

Are you sure you are not talking about HK drugging on Peragus? Because I would like a quote that it was on Harbinger. I went through the prologue again. It says that the Exile is in medical room in critical condition due to severe injuries. (drugs are not mentioned) HK also clearly states that he drugged the Exile days later on Peragus (when populous was eliminated). Are you saying he did it twice? Also, wouldn't the medical stuff on Harbinger have a general idea what happened to the Exile and give him the antidote? Don't forget that the Exile was Harbinger's prized "shipment". Do you think that Goto would attack an important Republic ship?

Tell me about it! And just when I thought you gave up

Personally I would like to see Revan dead in K3. No, -really- dead. As in became one with the Force. As for the Exile I would like him to continue Kreia's quest to destroy the Force. I wish I (the player) could help him kill it (as a part of solving main quest), but I am no fool to expect it possible. I agree that starting at level 1 sounds silly. I wouldn't mind not having XPing in K3 at all. Just acquiring/learning new powers and techniques on the journey that would really make a difference. Revan and Exile were unnaturally quick to gain xp because of the nature of who they were. But obviously K3 may not even happen. Anyone read press release on NWN 2 to feature SpeedTree RT? Usually I don't bother but here's something that caught my eye: "Obsidian Entertainment is currently working on two new titles, Star Wars

I can't imagine why people understand that being grey (SW) or neutral means being passive or 'apathic'. Yes, it means taking neither side A or B, yet it also does mean taking C side (very strongly). Want to start a war? A: Yes! B: No! C: Not -any- war! What do you think environmentalism is about?! PS: You can choose "neutral" ending in K2 by not following Revan.

Xard, I understood that the Force (!= SW) was a subject of metaphysics in SW worlds. So I thought you meant "god" since it is self-explanatory that the Force is not the God. I don't want to open the subject of 'canon' (again), but just watching the movies (which I did not long ago) I would hardly be here present, discussing anything. EU characher?! As in Finish, Polish, Greek, 22-other-countryman following in no particular order? :ph34r:

This is the part I argue, of course. If it is just a force, why only some "chosen" can sense it and manipulate it? To me it would make more sense if it were the other way around. (btw. The Christian god is usually referred to as "God".) No proof. The big question: dare you believe in god/God since you have no proof? However human progress is full of insane assumptions, you know. No wonder true revolutionaries are first burned on stakes then proclaimed as martyrs. Kreia may not be all-knowing, but she sure feels wise to me.

Oh yeah! Ignorance -is- bliss. For a moment there I thought you might mention supernatural deaths. Still, I am not any happier. Unnatural, how? Bleeding to death, dying in a car crash, of cancer, pneumonia, absence of the force, of old age, by a purpose hungry lion,

That's a circular argument. You cannot imply that it is oppressive just because the manipulation cannot be detected and then use that as an argument for destroying so you can be "free". That's like saying that I don't feel God's presence, so that's just because he's manipulative, and now I must destroy him, so I can be free. That's bad logic. It also sounds like paranoia to me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You must have misunderstood me. It is *because* it is undetected that people don't doubt it and are less if not entirely unwilling to give it up. It is just a reasoning of mine why you might refuse to kill the force. I am not trying to establish such practise. Have you seen Mononoke-hime? It basically deals with the same stuff. Give me an example of 'willful' death (as opposed to natural death), please. Huh?!

Excuse me?

So there is some truth in what I said. As I said, the best kind of manipulation is the one that is not detected. Only when rid of its presence you would know its oppression. Obviously I consider death as a part of life and you don't. But don't the Jedi say that they are not afraid of dying? Them (and Sith) probably being the only victims

Not really. I know -you- are also present. It wouldn't hurt, if you actually brought something fresh to the discussion. Giving your own thoughts on whether you consider Kreia's quest to kill the force evil or not (grey, if you like), and why you believe that way. Jediphile and I are discussing the nature of the truth itself since we take different perspectives and I think it's crucial to how we perceive Kreia' behavior.

It amazes me that people want to discuss that kind of stuff all the time! But, hey!, I let them have their fun and look out for people I feel healthy to discuss other kind of stuff with. There are obviously some who mind how and what others (namely the two of us) think and post. That's the reason I apologized

Uh, I remember this one! I just looove the self-reflection part. Where was this? On Peragus? Kreia.dlg? I'll play the devil's advocate and claim that by "means" she meant T3, which was legally in her care. See, no lies. Conjecture or not I think we all here have been debating ideas behind ideas the writers never thought of themselves. But such is the nature of interpretation... Now, I am truly surprised because it feels we agree on how much Kreia manipulated with people around her. Granted you understand her as a liar whereas I think she only uses the truth to her own end (!= gain). Consequently you think she is selfish, evil; I think she's hopeful and daring. Of course human creation cannot be perfect. I don't believe that the jedi believe the code is the only possible way, but that they don't dare to walk those other ways. After all they *may* lead to the dark side. And that is enough. As for Atris, I'm quite sure doubt and fear overcame her during and after the Mandalorian Wars and she was aware of that. So she desperately turns for help to those holocrons. She has no will to choose. The Exile can hint at this to her which knocks her out totally: E: [Awareness] Your anger... is it because you secretly wish you'd had the strength to follow me to war? A: {Surprised}What? What do you mean?" Also, I accept how you define the grey jedi above. It is something I relate to in life. Still, from the perspective of the Force there can only be Jedi or Sith. People do good or they do evil. So if you're saying that the grey Jedi are only outcasts from the order then you take Jedi's point of view which is legitimate. See, I have always had the bigger picture in mind. Which leads me to a question: shouldn't there be a gray Sith, then? Aahhh, but to break free of course! Even she

I like to compare the jedi code to the Bible and the order to the Church. They are all guidance, guidelines how to live and fulfill your life. Do good. In both cases you can go astray if that be your choice. Naturally the Jedi Knights are more likely to be tempted to fall to the other side, because they deal with stuff that are not meant for one person alone to experience (rem. Jesus). I thought the idea of "wounds" genuinely interesting. Power, fear and love are very powerful emotions for a human to control so it's quite natural to me that the jedi masters rave on and on: "Fear leads to the dark side" et al. Trying to understand something beyond your plane of existence