NightRevan

I can understand someone not liking romances (though it is so intertwined throughout different aspects of so many stories and in so many different aspects you are going to have to go far to find stories in which there are not romantic and/or sexual arcs and relationships) and also not enjoying their implementation in cRPG games (but then they like most companion arcs were always optional even to the detriment of their integration into the wider narrative sometimes, so if you didn't want to have that in your game you didn't have to). But I can't take agree with the statement that romance is cheap writing, something that all the various mythologies so as s vital aspect of their stories, the Iliad and the Odyssey, Egyptian novels, Greek and Roman theatre and early novels involving these themes and giving them important space and focus, Hebrew Scriptures and even more so some later writings, the development of chivalric romances that developed the Arthurian cycle involving Arthur, Lancelot and Guinevere, Morgan le Fey and Arthur, Merlin and Nimue, Lancelot, Elaine, Guinevere and the Fisher King, Sir Gawain and the Green Night and the trial of Gawain's chivalric honour by the Knight's wife, Tristan and Isolte of even more ancient pedigree (as is the older suggestion of Guinevere's betrayal of Arthur with Mordred). For there through Chaucer and through Shakespeare and beyond, in his plays it plays such an important aspect through so much for good or ill. Where would Macbeth be without the push of his wife, Othello without his love for his wife would never have fallen, the Merchant of Venice, comedies such as Midsummer Night's Dream, Taming the Shrew, Much Ado about Nothing, before we even get to such works as Romeo and Juliet. And onward through the novels of the nineteenth century, Jane Austen, the Bronte sisters etc, the works of Tolstoy. It became part of most other literature genres, thrillers, horror, drama, of Tolkien's Beren and Luthlien, the dark tragedy of Turin, Finduilas and Nienor, on to Aragorn and Arwen, and has been part of nearly all fantasy novels I've ever read, from the great to the terrible, such as George RR Martin's work to take a popular example. Writers have down the ages to be essential part of describing the vast landscape of human experience, expression and meaning, from the base to the sublime, the trivial to the grand, the ridiculous to the deeply moving, loyalty and betrayal, the heights of joy to the depths of tragedy. So are there romances and stories with romances that are cheaply written, sure, are there allot that are cheaply written, I'll happily agree. But the same is true of every type of genre, narrative and characterisation you can think of, in all mediums including games. There is nothing particular to romances in terms of being susceptible to cheap and terrible writing, it's a danger with all writing. So while disliking romances in general is something I'm perfectly fine with, and not being an aspect of RPGs you want or desire, and that is fine to, people like different things and PoE doesn't have them so bonus from your point but to say romance in literature is cheap as a whole I can't agree with at all, because I don't think it's true.

Good post. But why would you favor a pre-written background, for a character like that? Does it have something to do with having more distance to the subject-matter..? Fully agree that you would have to be extremely careful with this, though. That I would want to write something like this, for example, is because I know people who have experienced serious abuse, and know them well enough that I can describe the way they act and exaggerate the types of traits they've acquired afterwards, so it's easy to spot the consequences. That's also why I think it would work better to tempt a player with those options if they created their own story along the way, to make it more personal. But.. yes, not a very easy thing to do.. The reason I thought a pre-written PC would be easier for that kind of story arc was more from the writer's angle than to give distance as the paths being all pre-written and unlike say a PnP campaign being unable to adapt to the specifics of a player's creation of the PC and for character, background and reasons for their abusive behaviour. So the options would be more generalized to the situation as a result and might not be able to give the depth of focus and attention that would be needed, whereas with a pre-established character the arc could be more tailored and specific. It could be done with a blank slate PC where we have the freedom to create and develop our own PC but it would be more difficult and more likely to fail. At least that is my initial thought. I agree that if done right it could be a powerful, thought provoking and disturbing (in the right way) story that could examine the disturbing dynamics of power and abuse that happen. I suspect though that unless it were a game built around the concept it us more likely to continue to be something the PC will encounter in a set situation of npcs and possibly in companions history, situations and/or quests (I'm thinking of certain mod companions, drow society with Viconia in BG2, Visas Marr and Kreia in KOTOR 2, some characters from DA:O. But with the right attention it could be done, possibly including an origins start idea to the PC which could then be wider character arc and narrative that will be a part of the wider PC's story that would play out in a number of areas including their romance arc. How the player establishes their character and how that character responds to the situations, history and relationships they find themselves in could then be quite different.

It's not really about justifying abuse (while you can create a narrative or character whole will attempt give justifications of some form or another to such behaviour, even if it's just exulting so doctrine of strength/superiority or in 'being evil' is still giving attempting to justify their own problems and weaknesses, it can be can be a character you could create or write) but acknowledging the gravity of the narrative and situation to be considered. After all, it's possible to create the scenario set in our own world (and many real life examples of such in a number of forms) in which the character would have to them reasons and justifications for their actions, it's far more common and happens far more often than most people realise, And of course there are many genres that deal directly in these issues, dramas, crime thrillers, and so on (and a number of fantasy novels, with Game of Thrones a popular example that springs to mind), but there as with this idea, it can't be separated from the reality of such situations in our world and to make sure to do it justice. And in that sense can't be separated from the issues we struggle with the fact that such behaviours happen right here, but must attempt to deal maturity, insightfully and respectfully with the issue even when characters involved might be given, coming from an life of abuse themselves, or whatever, the whole narrative and experience has it deal or enable to situation to deal maturely with the situation, recognising the gravity of the scenario they choosing to explore, as is the case with any narrative and media. When you choose to comment in your medium on such issues and to say something about them in art, story or in this case within a game as an interactive narrative you have to do so with care, understanding and make sure you are not trivialising the issue or just doing to have a dark moment, or just to make a claim at being 'mature', because in that case I think you would completely miss that objective and just be a trivia moment that would come off as trying to be 'dark and edgy' as I said but being anything but. For me it's the difference between attempting to just look mature in writing and actually being mature in writing and context. That doesn't mean it can't be done but it's something that requires I think allot of thought, care and work, and would I feel in some respects easier to do with npcs other than the PC than attempting to write a story in which it could involve the PC (as it couldn't be a side thing or just part of a companion interaction, but rather would be the defining aspect of that story and characterization and character interaction). It would also be something that would have far-reaching implications, both for the characters involved and the PC, with definite consequences of that behaviour and action for the PC, and his narrative, including the larger narrative itself. And it would be a defining trait of the PC, not just a minor side-aspect, or side-quest or arc that would have little functional impact on the rest of the narrative, again to do that risk trivialising such issues. This might even be more the case if we think of a Watcher type using their power to abuse and even rape the soul of their loved one, an assault not possible here but bringing that kind of abuse very much into the narrative and should be dealt as such. I feel it would be something that could be written but would be difficult to do well and sympathy, knowing it is attempting to comment on such things, and would need to be written well, deeply and integratingjy with that in mind, or not at all, as it would come off as seeming crass and meaningless. That said I think it could be done, though it might be at to great a cost of player freedom to define their own character to make it work well and I imagine would work better in a pre-written and defined character rather than one we create ourselves (PnP would offer freedom to do this, but unfortunately that isn't possible with cRPG) or with an set of npcs the PC can interact with. That has already happened and can work well enough the difficulty would be the PC interaction in such situation I imagine and making only a possible choice of character and narrative arc work well where we define our character and their reasons for the way they are and arrived at the place were they would both abuse their loved one and what justifications they would give for it, and bring in the consequences for that. As for other things that aren't involved with direct abuse, I think those are much more easier to do and more likely to be done and done well, such as unrequited love, being used by another or manipulated by them for some other agenda (perhaps attempting to seduce your character and use your power for their own ends, or to betray you, or they just don't really love you but find you attractive and/or powerful and attach themselves to you). Or the other way around, you use them, to some extent that has been in various romances arcs before, you could approach a number in this respect and could even at the last point completely break the heart of the other character if you wished, or use them, Visas Marr in KOTOR 2 is a good example of this, at least with restored content. You could sacrifice her to defeat Darth Nihilus, and manipulate and use her commitment to you to get her to do this, and depending on whether your Exile loved her or not has a completely different meaning to the scene, as if you just used your influence and her love to defeat a rival, which is what Kriea herself advises the Exile to do and approves off and so on. I'm also reminded of the Dragonlance books for some reason and Raistlin using that cleric having drawn her to fall in love with him using her to try and become a god, until it turns out his pretence had at some point become real and he realised he did care for her after all. I can't remember everything of that novel as it has been a long time since I read the Dragonlance books, As for unrequited love I'd recommend the BG2 mod Yasreana, a drow female fighter who you would meet just at the end of the dungeon of Irenicus, and whom, if you a are a male Bhaalspawn the issue of unrequited love is a theme within that companion, though not the dominate one. It is something that your character can either come to terms with or not however, and if not that can come up more through the character's own arc, story and quest. Still not a bad one to have a arc in which the PC falls for someone who definitely doesn't return the affection in that way . Long post short, some things would be much easier to do than others, but it could be done, but would need allot of care and work I think, and done with sensitivity to the subject matter, and not something done just because it's shocking material (it needs to be better than a low grade shock horror in a poor movie , particularly when unlike that it isn't just a moment but a full and involved delving and exploration of that situation with a long character arc related through interactive role-play medium).

Well assuming there would be a PoE2 with potential romantic arcs (which is probably a big maybe, and again despite my personal preferences would not be something I would want writers to do unless their hearts were in it, as they wouldn't be any good and game would do better in that case without them) failure options as fine though that has happened with previous games provided you RP it like all other companion relationships and don't try to 'game' it trying to pick the 'right' choices . Choice what you think your character would say or do in that situation or relationship and let the consequences happen, it's much more interesting . That unfortunately is part of the problem with influence/approval mechanics is while a good idea in theory it practice it tends to lead gamers to try and 'win' the approval and game it to max out the approval/influence rather than treating it as mechanic that is simply part of an indication of the character's relationship to you. The abundance of gifts to potentially spam in DA:O didn't entirely help this perception, though of course you don't have to use them and sell them as loot instead. It is far more interesting to RP it in DA:O and just use the key gifts indicated in conversations you have with your companions there, and just let things happen as will. Some like you, some are indifferent but committed to the mission, some might hate and leave or betray you, it makes for great RP and narrative . And romances can fail, end tragically (Morrigan and Alistair in certain ways), and Bastila and Visas Marr from the KOTOR games were examples of that potentially, as is Viconia (at least in epilogue). And you could fail the BG2 as well if you focus less on giving as answers to win the romance (after all I've lost Viccy with some characters either being to sensitive, insensitive or being outraged at some things at different points in the romance and it all crashed and burned, and lost Arie to Hear'dlis ), on NWN Hordes of the Underdark play through had Nathyrra saying effectively she just wanted to be friends at the end of long ongoing romance arc, and in other games, so failures can happen as with non-romance npc relationships when RPing and gaming the dialogue options. It won't have anything like the freedom that a PnP setting gives for reactions to your RP but that applies to everything in cRPGs. As for abuse options it is something to be given allot of thought. Because even if it's using fantasy means physical and/or emotional abuse, damage and domination of others and such pathologies and destructive behaviours are all to real. If it is ever to be done it needs to proper care, attention and sensitivity to the situation. It shouldn't be something just put there to be 'dark and edgy' or thrown it to look mature but needs to be really mature and get into the consequences of such a relationship between the PC and character and for each personally and to have lasting effects and meaning. And I'm sure how ready the writers are attempt and risk to explore that in an RPG game successfully . But anything less would be vacuous, meaningless and insulting

They are partially at fault here. Simply because Imoen has literally zero dialogue outside of Irenicus' dungeon and spellhold. She was literally an empty character and plot device in BG2 SoA. No banters, no quest interjections, no alignment objections. The mod literally spawned from that flaw. Depending on when you go to spellhold (remember: there's still the RP crowd that probably rushes for spellhold as soon as they collected the 15k GP), Imoen can be one of the very first characters you recruit in SoA. And this is where BG2 failed. Outside of the critical path post spellhold, she never talks. So actually, the Imoen mod is not really to blame for the missing characterization of Imoen in SoA. All her canon banter and personality comes from ToB content, after all. In that regard, the mod actually adds some quality content. It's not like you are forced to date her in the mod; as it also adds banter and additional quest dialogue. And to be honest: this is the strong point of the mod. The romance was mediocre. Funny trivia: the Imoen mod was originally thought to be for female PCs only - so much to the whole incest banging thing. Most of the dialogue is actually written for a female perspective. The creator just turned it into a "free for all" mod due to popular demand. The mod actually destinguishes between a male and female PC. It's harder to 'win her over' as a man than it is as a woman. That is interesting I didn't realise the earlier state of the mod and just felt it wasn't for me or any PC I would develop or wish to play as romance with Imoen and the Bhaalspawn just didn't seem right as I always felt their relationship was a sibling one from the first game on. But good to know it's wider context, sans the romance it does sound interesting, but on my initial read of the mods description it seemed to fall into the same zone as the Sarileth mod for me as just feeling not quite right for me personally. And I agree as to the lack of dialogue or content to Imoen outside of Irenicus's dungeon and Spellhold (apart from a few dialogue responses during the final confrontation with Bodhi, her soul being restored and Irenicus) in Shadows of Arm and if the writers did indeed originally intend to kill her off that makes sense, just a shame they didn't expand her context when they changed their minds. I do have the Imoen friendship mod installed which expands her dialogue and reactions post Spellhold somewhat between the PC and other characters which also adds in some of what you mention, and helps establish the sibling relationship a little.

Well the PC doesn't know Imoen is a fellow Bhaalspawn until after reuniting with her in Spellhold in BG2 so they didn't know they didn't know were related (to extent being Bhaslspawn made you related since there were allot of Bhaalspawn). However she and PC grew up together as wards of Gorien so they grew up as siblings and that is how the game presents the relationship . So I think the mod has a hard job trying to get around the incest implications and I don't think it can. To be fair I can't say for sure as I haven't and won't ever try it out, it is just to disturbing for me (much like a certain paladin companion mod I once came across). However that wasn't the fault of the BG2 writers as they nothing to do with the Imoen mod, nor is it in anyway representative of the majority of BG2 mods in general, or romance companion mods in particular

Just in reference to the discussion about a romantic arc between a PC and a NPC (companion or otherwise) that would not have them being (or desiring) physical intimacy (or both), for instance if one or both is a godlike which has left them unable to have this or due to some other traumatic experience or just lack of sexual desire shouldn't mean there could not be a romantic arc that would be possible with them, just that the arc would be a little different and focus on exploring the building bond, affection and attraction to each other as persons, of the growth of love and commitment between them (or it's destruction, betrayal or other more tragic elements etc depending on how you respond as a PC, the NPC and their reactions and the wider narrative). After all, even for those who can't or don't desire sexual intimacy doesn't mean they don't desire the particular romantic companionship and bond and the other kinds of intimacy it provides. Such s relationship is still romantic even though it is not actively sexual, and written well could be very interesting. And from what I remember there was just that kind of romantic arc in PS:T with Falls-from-Grace where due to her unique situation physical intimacy was off the table between TNO and her, but I remember really enjoying it as part of the story and game, and found (if I'm remembering right as it has been a while) her promise to wait for my TNO when he goes to his fate quite a moving and powerful moment ss part of the whole finale, it definitely added to the whole experience of that game for me. To some extent Visa Marr of KOTOR 2 features this in which at least the sexual aspect of the attraction and relationship between her and the male Exile is muted but was more connection and growing intimacy through the Force (leading to the mediating scene together as you go after Kreia), though I now not all the companion arcs, including romances, were implemented at the time so physical attraction may have been emphasized in what wasn't implemented But as it is I think both are models for approaching a companion arc with romance, that forms a definitely romantic relationship with various outcomes (with Visa it could at least with restoration mod, it could lead to redemptive or dark end, or to sacrificing her, which could happen through the non-romantic interactions of course, but impact when the Exile is in a romantic relationship and one of the above events or outcomes occurs has allot of impact and RP affect for the PC . Similar to KOTOR 1 where one PC of mine had romanced and was in love with Bastila, stayed loyal to Jedi, tried to save her in their fight, failed and had to kill her, I found it a powerful but tragic moment, as is succeeding in saving her or RPing that through the game your bond with her was holding the dark side at bay and so falling to it during the fight on the Rakatan temple). A little off track at the end there, but looking at how those games did it, I think romances without physical intimacy bring possible or a factor at least through the game can be done well and be powerful and effective as a character interaction and relational arc through the game and yield and powerful romantic aspect into the narrative giving just as strong an impact as romantic arcs where physical attraction and intimacy plays a stronger role in the narrative and interaction It possible has a benefit of focusing the writers on really focusing on the attraction and potentially growing love and bond the characters and how events affect that and how the relationship turns out. Of course whether there are romances in future games depends on whether the developers want them. I like the in companion, story-focused RPGs but if the writers felt forced to do them because maybe allot of players might want them in (assuming for the sake of argument that is the case, which it might well not be) that shouldn't happen. Because if it's not something their heart was in it in all likelihood wouldn't be that good and feel shoe-horned in, a little to how some view the stronghold in PoE (though I haven't gotten far enough I to making a judgment about it myself). But I do think romances without physical intimacy as part of the arc can be done and done well with the right writing

Well I want to first say that that I agree it very much is my issue, which I hope I made clear in the first post, as I acknowledged clearly this is a issue not many others were having with the game (and I just saw this thread a place I might ask for ideas etc for getting around it. It is entirely subjective to me and the wider content was just to illustrate why, to me, I find the firearms alongside the existing arms and armour without seeming to affect it (again in my subjective experience) was making it an implicit fourth wall breaker. If I didn't make that as clear as I should I apologize, and so this isn't really criticism of the game or siting this issue as a problem which breaks immersion as a general issue, since just looking at this thread and others, that clearly isn't the case. It's an issue mostly particularly to me, but I was hoping to gain some pointers for ideas ahead, which have gained a few, for which I'm grateful, as I would like to get immersed into the world. So it is indeed my issue, but on I was just looking for ideas around, and if it sounded like a blanket criticism it wasn't intended that way but rather an explanation of way I found it a problem as a route to inquiring to ways through, around and bypassing it altogether. If not *shrug* it's a shame but perhaps I will be able to enjoy more another time. I also acknowledge that many classic high fantasy settings actually take place in a kind of mythic early medieval/classical/early civilization mix that I quite like but most games tend to reproduce with elements for a popular idea of later Middle Ages, (though from what I remember of the Conan short stories there tended to be all sorts going on there depending which land or kingdom the indomitable Cimmerian was in, whether ancient Eastern civilisations like Zamora or a more or less popular idea of high medieval Europe in Aquilonia) but I don't mind so much which I also concede is probably entirely hypocritical but just maintains enough of the 'feel' of it I don't mind. Completely subjective, but than this all is, I guess the flavour matters as much as the substance, though that said I would love to see more set in a more early medieval or late Romanesque period that was consistent would be interesting to me. The mention of the Conquistadors/Tudor look is interesting enough exactly the kind of look I was looking for with the presence of such firearms (and to see castles designed with cannon in mind, for example such as those built by Henry VIII later in his reign which were quite different and built with resisting cannon fire in mind) which extents a little to the Civil War (English I mean, I live in the UK so it's just the Civil war here ) though that's a little later. But something akin to that look would have cool for me (though there some armour that fits such as the breastplate armour and padded armour which could fit with such a look and feel). I do see the point of seeing a more wilder mix of a period going on, though at the moment it just feels to me like the guns in question seem more widespread and advanced for that, but again as some have pointed out the 14th century onwards was increasingly complicated in this regard. Perhaps it would help to try and enter into in that manner, and the Engwithian angle is interesting, at the moment I'm not sure if it will help, if not I will see if I just do what I've always done with the aforementioned rapiers in pervious games and just ignore their existence and avoid obvious instances of them (as I did just getting rid of Kana's gun and giving him a crossbow instead). Anyway, thank you and to others for you time and posts, I have appreciated them, and I'll stop diverting the thread with my own immersion issues and let you all get back to your prior discussion .

I am aware that firearms began to appear in the late 14th century (1360's) which to be fair does date firearms to around the time of the completed forms of full articulated plate, and a form of cannon were around for a while . But I wasn't aware that effective firearms were developed or deployed in a major scale till at least the end of that century and beyond, and had the impression that kind of weapons roughly depicted in the game, pistols, blunderbusses etc were later. However detailed medieval and weapon history was not a focus of mine (I was more interested and read more ancient history when I was younger, and more in the various society, politics and philosophy of the Middle Ages). So you are probably correct, and it isn't so much the fully developed full plate but the transition period from Crecy to earlier, which is where (if anywhere I would technological site most high fantasy settings, through it also includes popular ideas of earlier periods as well and can accept full plate and few other things as okay anachronisms since they still feel as if they belong even when they don't fully as subjective as statement as that is). Perhaps it is just a hangover from more popular perception and I know RPGs have had the full combination of things from different times (warriors in full steel using shields, as you day the existence of rapiers which I've always disliked but was easily avoided or pretend they aren't there, and never as obviously present to me as firearms here). Still for me it still feels and odd mix, as though there should be more affect of the type of guns being that prevalent, that it remains an thing that disrupts immersion for me. Will have to see if I can continue and thankyou for the advice Khalid the bear I will see if something can be found on Nexus. Perhaps there will be, or I'll see if I can get over it. Otherwise I leave it, as I have been getting into the Spiderweb game Avadon 2 and will do that instead. And feel free to go into more details FlintlockJazz, maybe it will help and in any case it should be interesting to learn .

This thread gives me a place to ask a question I wanted to poise. I did donate (not enough to be full backer as I couldn't afford it them) back the game a while back but I didn't really keep up with all the details so firearms were a surprise. I'm afraid I'm one of those who isn't a fan of firearms in the game, or perhaps more accurately it's implementation. Though I have a preference for a roughly high fantasy setting it's more a general preference as I've enjoyed a number of good RPGs in very different settings in which guns are part, so in itself it isn't a problem. What I do find a problem is that just there in what is otherwise a medievalesque high fantasy setting without any effect on the arm, armour and combat elsewhere. Firearms are a game changer, once effective cannon and accompanying muskets and pistols came in it changed combat and arms and armour within a generation. And with such quite developed firearms in place and with fairly widespread use it should have changed and effected all other weapons and armour, how the guards look etc. Well at least for me, and as firearms aren't magic I can't waive it away to myself that way, full plate and shields should be redundant and archaic, and bows and crossbows largely gone as weapons of war. But it hadn't, the setting may be in a renaissance type period lore wise but it neither appears, looks nor feels like it. Everything seems the high fantasy medievalish theme except there are guns there which seem to effect nothing and haven't caused any change. Somehow people continue fighting as if they aren't there, and it for me every time it comes up it's an implicit forth wall breaker for me, where guns should have changed everything but arms, armour and seem completely unaffected. To have the guns just there anomalously alongside the high fantasy setting (or least in every way appears to be that) without having any effect on culture and weapons, arms and even some classes just keeps telling me this is a game world so the guns can be there without affecting anything else just because it's a fantasy game so somehow it just does . And for me as I said it feels like it is a constant breaker of the fourth wall to me, and removes any immersion and so rping in the game. I know reading this thread this is mostly just a problem for me but I'm having difficulty getting past it and getting on with the game (I'm still in the first act) and wanted to ask is there anyway to avoid them or a possibility of a mod to remove the guns. I sold Kana's immediately and gave him a crossbow but it keeps popping up elsewhere. And I just it removes any immersion I have and allot of enthusiasm to continue the game because it's so frustrating to have guns there but unconnected to anything else when to me (and stress for me) they should change and effect all other weapons and armour (and how some classes function). Anyway that's it, any ideas to avoid the firearms would be most welcome.