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Knights&Darths
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yes, big difference. i don't really understand what it is that went wrong with TSL, i think they had to do a better job on the Ravager, the Nihilus thing was resolved way too quickly, i think that was meant to be the real ending, the rest was just settling things with Kreia and a say-goodbye thing before making for the unknown regions. what was indeed bad, very bad, was Malachor's surface, what happend to the party? are they injuried or something? how did Mira end up ko all alone on the surface all of a sudden, maybe she went after you as soon as she regained consciousness? they had to show all that stuff.The ending was never meant to be epic ever, cut content or not. Big difference compared to K1. -
no, he would have taken her as his new slave
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Carth did play a role in defending Telos, he is a republic admiral not a jedi. Bastila probably arrived on Citadel Station shortly after the Exile made for the Ravager, it was a sudden attack and she was probably in hiding like the oder jedi.
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when she speak about them she refers to them as echoes of malachor, she imply that all the 3 knows this technique and all 3 are a menace to the galaxy that will destroy/consume it.we see Nihilus as the greater menace and the one that explored this technique more than others, but this doesn't imply that other ones doesn't know it or will not become as Nihilus with time. so, another reason she had to die is that by herself she was a menace to the galaxy, when Kreia "is happy" because the exile stopped the siths she is speaking even about herself.
"It may be whatever pain he experienced in the past was so great, that the technique he used to recover from it... and sustain himself... also gives him an incredibly high pain threshold."
--HK-47, talking about Sion
as i have said, it is suggested that Sion used his own ability to survive the MSG, not Nihilus'. Kreia does say that Nihilus taught that to those who chase the Exile, and that what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve but Nihilus himself learned how only after the MSG (as it is something you have to endure in order to learn). because he learned from the Exile how to bond with others, he too was wounded on Malachor (supposedly he was bound to a number of jedi who died there) but he used that ability (touched by the dark side) to feed on others and survive (hence the "died and reborn" metaphore.) Kreia says that all of the Sith Lords are a threat for a reason though, Sion's technique draws from pain and he must forever inflict his pain on others as he says in Trayus Accademy, these are the teachings they learned in that place.
"One bathes in pain, feeds on it for sustenance."
--Kreia
it is quite possible that Nihilus (like many others) knew the Exile, yes, even so Nihilus was the only one who harnessed that ability.Nihilus (and other sith lords too) learnt from the exile to create connections... when? where?
Nihilus became a hole in the Force because he harnessed the Exile's ability with the teachings of Trayus Accademy (as it is said that he learned his hunger in that place), in time he kept using it to become more and more powerful until he became a slave to it, only then he became something figuratively resembling a black hole in the Force threatening to draw all life into it. Sion is spoken of as something else, nonetheless to be stopped.this imply that if Nihilus is an hole in the force, he is an hole because of the exile. now i'm not saying that the Exile consciously used that technique on Nihilus, my theory is that when the exile cut her bound with the force and the force was wounded by it... even the people "near" the exile, who had the strongest bounds with her, suffered from this loss and where wounded too... this apply to Nihilus but in a minor part even for Sion.with a female, canonic, exile... i'd say he love her
yes, i liked that little thing between Sion and the Exile, indeed, it is possible he knew her, or maybe he thought to know her as he chased her, difficult to say.
it is something i strongly believe though it remains in the realm of speculations (as does most we've been talking about.)and also Kreia know the exile even before they meet -
the way this Echo will spread will be not a be deaf to the force or die...
i wouldn't say that. about the Exile, the only thing they missed is that she was everything that standed in the way of the Sith Lords, but that was because they kept feeling nothing in the Exile, like on Coruscant, like Vrook says in Khoonda. it is because the Force was stripped from her, same reason it was so easy for Kreia to remain unnoticed by Atris and the others, this Atris said when the Exile met her in battle. perhaps some quotations are needed.Jedi masters, and Atris in particular, have no clue about the exile, her importance and the plan of Kreia... they are blind by the force (as Kreia will say)"But I have reestablished my connection to the Force."
"Perhaps it is Dantooine, but I do not feel such from you - I feel nothing but what I felt in the Council judgment chamber on Coruscant, so long ago."
--The Exile and Master Vrook in Khoonda
"That's impossible. How could I not tell she was Sith?"
"Because the Force had been stripped from her... as it had been torn from you."
--The Exile and Atris
however, besides Atris, Kreia herself speaks of what she has in store for the galaxy, and the Exile. even if it is all a misunderstanding as you say, what manner of "example" would be killing Kreia, that it would somehow "spread to others"? i cannot help but feel unconvinced by this theory.
"She seeks the death of all Jedi, all Sith... and the death of the Force. It is madness, it is impossible - but she believes you are the key."
--Atris
"The apprentice must kill the Master - if you do not, I will kill you. If I do not, then all you have achieved will be as nothing, as empty, and as violent as Malachor itself."
--Kreia
before Malachor it would have been useless. the masters spoke of force bonds as of something the Exile was gifted with, and it was quite evident, Kreia used the Exile to twin their lives and trained her so that she would become strong, that the connection would become strong. the stronger one is in the Force, the stronger the connection, and the echo it leaves when it is wounded.and about the fight between the Exile and Kreia... she had tons and tons of situations where she where able to kill the exile..."Yes, always. From the moment you awoke, I have used you. I have used you so that you might become strong"
--Kreia
"The stronger your connection to life, to the Force, the stronger these echoes can be made - and the stronger they are felt."
--Kreia, ruins of the jedi enclave, cut content
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hello there, i'll try to explain.
- Revan dark = Carth is dead so you can't see him
- Revan light = you meet Carth (and Bastila if Revan was male) after the Ravager
- Revan male = T3's holorecord shows Bastila
- after the Ebon Hawk crashes on Malachor Atton has to stay onboard and make repairs so that when the ship gets free of the rocks Atton flies her to the Trayus Core and picks up the Exile
- Revan is long gone to the unknown regions, to fight the old Sith Empire, supposedly the remnants of Naga Sadow's forces
many found the ending disappointing but some change their mind after some playthroughs
- Revan dark = Carth is dead so you can't see him
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that is an interesting way of putting it thought it wouldn't really be "killing the Force", more like denying the "will of the Force", even so how would that cause people to be deafened to the Force? or die?the way Kreia want to "kill the force" is by an axample for people and the exile is that example, is a model or an "ubermensch", someone that can act as a model and insipre the others around him showing a path, a life free from the force.
Atris didn't think so, when the Exile met her in battle she spoke of Kreia's plans for creating an echo in the Force powerful enough to travel forever throughout the galaxy never reaching its destination, leaving in its wake dead spots in which the Force cannot be felt, on Malachor Kreia herself confirms as much, threateing to kill the Exile would she not kill her, because one of them has to die for the bond to become a wound and create the echo.the way this Echo will spread will be not a be deaf to the force or die...
here we go deep into suppositions, it is suggested Nihilus learned the Exile's technique to bond with people and that is what in a way explains why he is similar to the Exile and why he suffered the same fate on Malachor. Kreia says that the technique he uses to feed on the Force is something learned instinctually by experiencing its effects first hand, supposedly he used that technique to survive the MSG and preserve his power, then he flew Malachor with the Ravager. Sion is different, he learned to draw his power from pain and kept himself alive, like he does when he battles the Exile.he is very similar to the exile, its a sort of antagonist and it was created/"drained" by the exile herself (same for Sion and eventually, at the end, even Traya) so yes is an hole in the force as the exile...
":: You have taught them to bond with others, and then feed on others through that bond. ::" she doesn't mean the Exile taught them to drain the Force, if the Exile kills the masters she clearly says "I've never done anything like that before.", it is that Kreia sees taking strenghts from others and feed upon them much as the same ability, which it is but not in the common moral sense, the Exile always did form bonds with others and those connections granted strengths both to them and to the Exile, they never represented a threat to them. then again the ability to form connections is what Nihilus learned from the Exile and he used that ability much as a dark Exile would on the jedi masters: "It is a way that they fill the hollow places where the Force used to be." there is no evidence however that would suggest the Exile and Sion knew each other, quite the contrary, and we do not know the identity of Darth Nihilus so he could be anyone.i think they where actually quite close to the exile and that she had strong bounds with them... is interesting to see how Kreia (i think in dant academy dark side/killing master) say that the Exile tought them not only to "drain the force" but to extabilish bounds/links.
early dev no doubt, it featured Kreia's "redemption" and Atris taking up the mantel of Darth Traya, there is some evidence of this but much is missing and the story evolved to something too far from that for it to be a late choice.(also we have to say that maybe, in the uncut version, Kreia had not to die, but also we don't really know if and how that is possible) -
for Atris i don't agree... she alredy felt to dark side (she even meditate with sith holos and that is no good
) and Kreia explain that quite well.yes, on Malachor that sounded like "who, me? i didn't do anything
" she was already on that cliff, i just pushed her." i have to say it is quite arguable that she had no responsibility in Atris' fall, but it seems to be a matter of points of view. -
if that was the case he wouldn't be able to use the Force, Kreia even says he's more of a spirit than flesh and blood. it is because he learned that Force technique that he is able to act as a black hole in the Force, growing stronger and stronger in the Force even as his hunger consume him.Well, death of the force, black hole in the force etc. It is made so clear that force touches him in no way
that is an interesting way of putting it thought it wouldn't really be "killing the Force", more like denying the "will of the Force", even so how would that cause people to be deafened to the Force? or die?the way Kreia want to "kill the force" is by an axample for people and the exile is that example, is a model or an "ubermensch", someone that can act as a model and insipre the others around him showing a path, a life free from the force.
here we go deep into suppositions, it is suggested Nihilus learned the Exile's technique to bond with people and that is what in a way explains why he is similar to the Exile and why he suffered the same fate on Malachor. Kreia says that the technique he uses to feed on the Force is something learned instinctually by experiencing its effects first hand, supposedly he used that technique to survive the MSG and preserve his power, then he flew Malachor with the Ravager. Sion is different, he learned to draw his power from pain and kept himself alive, like he does when he battles the Exile.he is very similar to the exile, its a sort of antagonist and it was created/"drained" by the exile herself (same for Sion and eventually, at the end, even Traya) so yes is an hole in the force as the exile... -
I never really understood the echo thing in my opinion they kind of just forgot about it at the end. One thing is supposing if you kill kreia you were supposed to die too, but I never remember anyone explain why you don
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interestingBut Nihilus was anyway totally unconnected to force, so it still violates against G-canon what do you mean Nihilus was "totally unconnected to force"? i don't recall hearing anything like that about him, not once. could you please quote specifically? i always thought of him as a McGuffin character, he's barely mentioned though he's the greatest threat, he never speaks a clear word, everything about him has been gathered from Nihilus' mask, a loading screen or two, something more in Kreia's, Visas' and Tobin's dialogs.
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that's true of course, it is wrong to make choices for others but maybe she was willing to take that responsibility.A: Kreia is making a choice for whole Galaxy. A choice that may be wrong.
that is also true i suppose, there can be no proof that the Force atcually influences our path, nevertheless among the Jedi this is kind of an axiom.B: There is no proof that Force is insidious god that Kreia believes it to be.
life without the Force cannot exist, but it is possible to be deafened to it, that's what it means to be cut off from the Force: to be unable to feel it and use it (Odan-Urr explained the technique to Nomi Sunrider who used it on Ulic Qel-Droma in the Sith War), the Exile willingly let go of the Force, so did Sion in the end. my point is that you can let go of the Force only if you can use it, you cannot let go of something you don't even feel. like Kreia herself says: ":: And these echoes build, and all that can hear them shall become deafened... or die. ::"D: Canonically no life without force can exists, Kreia believes otherwise though. So Massive Echo = Apocalypse
the Exile was just deaf to the Force, Kreia helped her hear it again but it could only be done because of the Exile's unique ability to form bonds with anything touched by the Force (even Hanharr, lol), when Kreia helps the Exile feel the Force on Peragus one answer was "But it doesn't feel like it did... it feels like it is coming from across a great distance."E: It may be that Kreia was wrong when it comes to Exile's total unconnect to the force. Exile may still have minimal connection to Force, ie. his/her midichlorians surely did not die. Without those you can't connect back to the Force
the Jedi were all but extinct when Alderaan was destroyed by the Death Star, no Jedi was on the planet. as for Nihilus being reborn, it's just a figure of speech meaning that he fell to the dark side and assumed the identity of Darth Ninilus.Oh, and Nihilus thing. It is said that Nihilus died and reborned at Malachor V. Reborning stuff DOES NOT belong to Star Wars. Also, at Alderaan there died much more people than in Malachor V. However, it did not become place like Malachor V. -
there are some things to consider before answering:
- the echo relies on the bond. Kreia dies, the Exile is wounded, the echo travels.
- but Vash thought that if Kreia fell to the dark side the bond would go away, is the bond gone away? Zez-Kai Ell says something like that too, that to break a bond your feelings would have to change, if what forged the bond was some sort of kinship (born and grown as Kreia helped the Exile to feel the Force again) then maybe her turning on the Exile was what it took.
- yes but Kreia fell to the dark side because she thought she had failed, be defeated by the Exile proved her otherwise, in the end she says you saved her.
- oh but the Exile doesn't seem to be feeling pain or anything when Kreia dies.
- more than that, before the end she seems to realize something important, i think maybe she realized she was still a pawn of the Force, even in her quest to cut her off from the galaxy ("Atton is, as always, the fool. And the Force watches out for ones such as him, I feel. As it does for the old such as I.") and that the Force was to "survive" after all, she even goes as far as saying that your companions were in truth the Lost Jedi you had to gather and train for the new Jedi Order.
- but that sounds a bit controversial
- maybe she figured that out and started thinking about the things she could do something about: fighting the Sith in the great war that comes, now the Exile's training is complete, those Jedi jerks and the Sith Lords are gone, she's had proof that her teachings wrought the best Jedi in the galaxy and she can rest in peace.
- the echo relies on the bond. Kreia dies, the Exile is wounded, the echo travels.
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Kreia said she wanted to cause the death of the force - not conquer and rule the galaxy, not create a better order for things, CAUSE THE DEATH OF THE FORCE. She twisted and manipulated everyone to work toward her goal unknowingly in order to eliminate what could have been the source of all life in the galaxy. At a bare minimum, she would have "blinded" the thousands (millions ... billions ... more ???) of force-sensitive sentient (and not-so-sentient) beings throughout the galaxy ... and she's not the villian?
Nihilus was just hungry.
:D hahaha lol, i kind of agree with them though, her intent was to free the galaxy of the influence of the Force, the echo Kreia wanted to create on Malachor would harm just those who are aware of the Force and wouldn't give it up to survive, in a way the choice to die would have been theirs, not hers.
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i do like TSL better than Kotor (though i didn't really think so when i was still dealing with bugs, faulty quests, lame AI
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arguably can we call what generous Team Gizka is working out "original" or "intended", they're stating themselves that some things have to be invented, and though some other things may have been itended to make it to the final game, the arrangements that have been made make it difficult (as i'm sure Team Gizka is aware of) if not impossible for that material to be put back into place and make sense, or result in a more satisfactory less bashable story.
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only about Handmaiden as i recall, "if SHE leaves this place" means that if the ExileAh, but she threw you a little thing at the beginning, "IF they leave this place...".chooses to preserve Malachor she will remain there and train others there instead of Telos, and Atton is supposed to be on the Ebon Hawk making repairs anyway, otherwise when the ship falls whithout a pilot onboard
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its actually not the motivation reported in the article... "to avenge her betrayal", she doesn't blame the force for how jedi and siths "exiled" her... she want to destroy the force because it have no reguards for humanity and "use" it for its own purpose/balance.
but as said there are some mistakes, another one quite evident is that Kreia makes Atris fall to the darkside, that is simply not true, Atris alredy felt, Kreia makes her just "admit" it.
there is one statement is which the word "revenge" is maybe misleading but in the rest of the paragraph Kreia's resons are explained, that she came to regard the Force as an uncaring, insidious god, that she noted the tremendous loss of life throughout history
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i always thought of TSLRP as a big nice mod i'd like to see, nothing more. just personally i believe much of the cut content was already meant to be cut before the deadline problem. take the
DiscipleVSAtton/VisasVSHandmaiden cut content, it doesn't make sense, those people are the lost jedi meant to rebuild the order (jedi or sith) if they go all the way slaughtering each other
then things are over before they even begin. take master Vash,
if she told the Exile what she knew about force bonds and how the bond would fade out should Kreia fall to the dark side then what reason in space would have had the Exile to go after Kreia on Malachor V?? she could simply let Kreia suicide in the Trayus Core
and story is over, does it make sense? No (Chewbacca defense
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no, Disciple is not gay, Juhani was more than enough for lucasarts i fear.
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the pic is from wookiepedia, it's Kreia's conceptual art.
no, their characters ain't by any means alike, and she's human, i know that. i just saw some things in common, they do have some things in common, like in "Atton reminds me of Han Solo", they're very different but they do share a thing or two.
making a good article on Wookipedia is not as easy as one would think, you cannot write your own opinions, just stated facts, labiling anything else as speculation. even more so for an article about TSL, one who's played the game and read the chronicles would say they're not the same story. however:
there is little to discuss about Kreia's motivations, she clearly speaks her mind about that on Malachor, you can't miss it.
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she looks so cool to me!
Arca is male? well, if i posted that link it's fair to assume that i knew all that, isn't it? i just meant that Kreia has some abilities and traits that reminded me of Arca, maybe i was implying some lack of originality for those matters but not to the degree of letting it spoil Kreia's character, which i keep thinking to be the most interesting, boldly-created, fascinating sw character in some time, really.
and by the way, i'm a dreamy-eyed strong supporter of the Kreia=Kae theory, that story is probably 70% the reasons i like TSL. if somehow one day Obsidian disappoints me with a "no no" i'll be one very sad fan, with all the time i've spent crusading here and there trying to bring down the wall of speculations and come to an undeniable conclusion, if that'd be enough to state it as fact. Maybe one day that'll happen, here and here (and in the talk pages) you'll find the most accurate and serious big collection of evidence and conjectures on this matter, still that was not the topic, moderators will get mad, so
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At first Kreia reminded me a bit of master Arca, you know white eyes, white hair, i almost thought she was arkanian. Plus there is something i've been thinking about, the Battle Meditation, Arca knew it, there is no way of knowing if the Exile knew it before loosing his connection to the Force but that power was said to be a rare gift, yet training under Kreia the Exile can learn it. Just thinking, i'm not convinced, but it is a possibility that the Exile could learn it just because Kreia knew the technique, hard to say. Oh, oh, and there's also the ability to tame beasts! When Exar Kun went to Onderon Arca was riding a Drexl.
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i would've loved that cut ending with him fighting Sion and dying in your arms saying "i love you" and other sweet stuff
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yes, i liked that little thing between Sion and the Exile, indeed, it is possible he knew her, or maybe he thought to know her as he chased her, difficult to say.
) and Kreia explain that quite well.
" she was already on that cliff, i just pushed her." i have to say it is quite arguable that she had no responsibility in Atris' fall, but it seems to be a matter of points of view.
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bastila in KOTOR 2
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