Mysh

Well I went past Gorecci street and the Drake on level 4, and she tanked everything good. Only think I noticed was the luck of HP, but I hope this won't be an issue after a couple of more levels.

Thanks for your response. We can certainly make it more defensive, but I feel this may be excessive or even less effective in certain situations. I am trying to find a more balanced build that has multiple roles in combat without being all-out attacker or all-out defender. The current build is about 2/3 defensive and 1/3 offensive.

Many thanks for your thoughtful response. Frankly speaking I do not like the role-playing aspects of Goldpact paladins. On top of that, I feel that the +5 armor bonus is only lasting for a few hits, and "white flames" will cover the difference while also healing the party around you. In principle once you knockdown someone, you may switch the shield for an off-hand dagger and cast FoD. I am also thinking whether or not intelligence is enough, but I could perhaps boost it a bit with items and training. I will definitely take your advice and go for disciplined strikes instead of 24+25. I am thinking enabling two fighting combat styles could give greater flexibility to the character, but I am not sure what to drop. Any other suggestions are welcome.

Hello, I am working on a tank/off tank build and I would appreciate if you could please tell me what you think about it. I am worried it is too much defensive though. Could you please give me some input? Race: Human (Wood/Pale Elves, Orlans, and Moon Godlikes would be quite good as well) Class: Crusader (Fighter / Paladin) Fighter: Unbroken Paladin: Kind Wayfarer MIG: 13 CON 8 DEX: 13 PER: 17 INT: 10 RES: 17 Fighter: Knockdown Paladin: Flame of Devotion + Lay on Hands 1. Deep Faith 2. Retribution 3. Weapon and Shield --- 4. Divine Purpose (+20 RES, DEX, MIG) 5. Determination (+20 INT, PER, CON) --- 6. Weapon Specialization : Warhammer (Last Word: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Last_Word) 7. Uncanny Luck 8. Overbearing Guard 9. Armored Grace 10. Stoic Steel 11. Unbreakable 12: Mule Kick 13: Eternal Devotion 14: Greater Lay on Hands 15+16: Zealous Aura + Exalted Endurance 17+18: Sworn Enemy + Sworn Rival 19+20: Vigorous Defense + Refreshing Defense 21+22: Fighter Stance + Guardian Stance 23: Into the Fray (for aggro in case someone escapes) 23: Practiced Healer (?) 25: Lasting Empower (super heal?) It will basically have 5 (6 with weapon) engagements, heals and survivability. I was thinking if I could give it a bit more offensive power, and maybe drop Mule Kick for Disciplined Strikes(?) and 24+25 for something like Confident Aim and Weapon Mastery, or Improved Critical. Another idea I had was to drop 24+25 for Exalted Focus and Conqueror stance, so I can switch to more offensive stance depending on the situation. I could also thinking to exchange unbroken for devoted, but this would sacrifice a lot of flexibility (eg. shield modal). Thank you.

@ Rheingold Crossbow qualifies is a heavy hitter and of course arbalests. I would go dexterity over might for these two; 4-5 points not more. For a Warbow you could go 1-2 points higher DEX. For hunting bows, I would go balanced. If you give me the input conditions (eg which weapon, attributes available, abilities, talents, perks, mods, etc you will have on) I can run a simulation against all enemies, for each bow and tell you the optimum stat distribution as an average in terms of DPS, or if you wish I can focus only on harder type of enemies.... EDIT: For a Warbow you could go 1-2 points higher MIG DEX.

I've studied one-handed weapons mainly, but once you can stack four or more sources of damage dexterity becomes more important than strength. This due to the fact that weapon damage multipliers are all additive. Early game benefits from high might, while end-game from high dexterity. Tougher enemies favor might more due to DR. This though certainly does not mean max MIG and min DEX, as people often think. On the other side for 2-H and high damage output weapons, dexterity is more important than might. When I see people posting Estoc builds with 20MIG and 3DEX... it's so funny... Overall, I would say stick to balance between might and dexterity for strong late game DPS for 1-handed weapons. Go a bit higher for DEX than MIG for 2-H weapons. If you are interested I can share my MATLAB scripts with you, so you can do the math analysis yourself. I do not have the courage to post all this stuff here, but you are welcome to show you how it works. Be prepared though, it's not a one-click thing.

Thanks, it's always great to receive feedback from you. You may want to consider replacing envenomed strike with superior deflection for higher deflection without sacrificing attack speed.

Please be so kind to reconsider Sanguine Plate's Retaliate mod. It was really a bad-ass armor that stood for its cool looks. Frenzy is really not what we would like to have. Please keep it as it was... Savage Defiance would have been better as previously suggested in forums. It seems many people at the forums have already complained about this change. Please reconsider.

Tea Time for Sword and Board Story: It is the story of an aristocrat elven girl, who left the unfriendly lands of White that Wends to help her order. Truth is she could not stand the pressure of her father, a baron in title. When she reached the age of 20, she joined the order of Kind Wayfarers and left her town to explore the word and make new friends... Role: Tank, Support, DPS Advantages: High survivability, sustainable DPS, strong role playing aspects, minor support, easy to play Disadvantages: Lesser support options Paladin Order: Any you wish, Kind Wayfarer fits our story... Race: Pale Elf (elemental resistances; Why? Ask Mr. Dragon) Attributes: MIG: 13 (matching might and dexterity yields the best DPS with this build. I won't elaborate here, since it's too detailed. Let me know, if you need further explanation on this. The choice is based on calculations analysing for DR&deflection, weapons, weapon mods, skills, talents and atribute combinations) DEX: 13 (as above, but also helpful for casting support abilities timely) CON: 8 (the build is tanky even with 8 CON, but wouldn't suggest to go below) PER: 17 (Deflection is needed for tanks. Awesome in RP) INT: 10 (This is all you need to cover the frontline with your endurance aura) RES: 17 (More Deflection. Essential in RP) Background: White that Wends (the Pale Elf land), Aristocrat (+2 lore) (Consistent with RP) Skills: Lore 10 (XP and RP reasons), Athletics 9 (nice for a tank), Survival 4 (potions) Weapon sets: Mace and Rapier (Noble) and Shield Abilities: Level 1: Lay on Hands (Guaranteed moderate heal; the way to go on PotD) Level 3: Zealous Endurance (DR; fits nicely a medium sized aura. Our goal is to extend the aura enough to reach a second frontline fighter. Not hard to do with items and 10 base INT). Level 5: Sworn Enermy (together with your modals, will pull out damage in tougher fights. Switch to rapier before casting) Level 7: Reviving Exhortation Level 9 Righteous Soul (Last thing you wish is to have your front line turning against you). Level 11 Hastening exhortion opens a useful support ability (this can turn your dual wielding DPS into a killing machine.) Talents: Level 2: Weapon and Shield Style (Absolutely vital for a tank) Level 4: Vulnerable Attack (It stacks as a modal ability with zealous endurance and savage attack. Should be always on) Level 6: Savage Attack (Increases damage output. Should be always on) Level 8: Weapon Focus Noble (Maces and Rapiers are the best one handed weapons, read below. It is also fitting our Aristocrat background.) Level 10: Envenomed Strike (Boss killer) Level 12: Deep Faith (Higher saving throws, Minor Deflection) Comments: 1. The combination of Strength, Dexterity, Mace, Vulnerable Attack, Savage Attack and Weapon Focus brings sustainable damage. Envenomed Strike adds versatility against bosses. 2. The weapons you should aim for are the Ravewing (mace) and the Sword of Daenysis (rapier). The first is more useful against tough opponents. The second yields higher DPS against easier opponents and offers an amazing casting speed. 3. Paladins don't have the best accuracy, therefore stick to outworn buckler (and later little saviour) to avoid any penalties. They are awesome anyway (and look girly too). ^.^, 4. High dexterity becomes important in the endgame. When you can stack 4 or more sources of damage (eg. superb weapon, coordinating (Ravewing), Savage Attack, Sworn Enemy, Vulnerable Attack, Slaying) dexterity takes over strength in importance. I am able to support this with in-depth calculations. I believe it is way too detailed to post here, but will do if asked. 5. Before casting support spells switch to rapier. Exchange weapons to mace after. This is especially true for Envenomed Strike. You want to ensure a hit and the +5 accuracy rapier bonus helps. 6. The build works best together with a second front line character, such as Eder and moderate support (eg Cleric, Druid, Chanter etc). 7. Faith of Conviction, Weapon and Shield, Zealous endurance, heavy armor, high resolve and perception, righteous soul and deep faith are enough to tank even in PotD. 8 CON is sufficient,t my experience is that adding more would be uncessecary. The art of building is not behind min/maxing, but knowing where to stop. 8. Any +2 lore background would yield 10 lore, 9 athletics, 4 survival. The other alternative is Mercenary, which can achieve 10 athletics, 9 lore, 4 survival. 9. Things you should avoid like plague are flames of devotion and any order related talents. FoD is just not reliable in PotD; chances are it won't land. 10. Hold the Line is awesome on paper, but never worked in relaity. It seems far more stable to employ a second frontline fighter to hold the line... 11. Deep Faith can be traded for cautious attack. If you do so, you will have to switch between cautious attack and savage attack when necessary. In my opinion, it kills your DPS for no real reason. With moderate support you can tank anything. Feel free to dip in and comment. Thanks for reading. PS I will also post a Solo Paladin build for PotD in the near future.

Here's a formula to calculate the average damage mod based on your accuracy: =IF(Acc+WAcc>=100;1+DmgMod+CD+WCD; IF(Acc+WAcc>49;1+DmgMod+(CD+WCD)*(Acc+WAcc)/100; IF(Acc+WAcc>14;0.75+DmgMod+(0.5+CD+WCD)*(Acc+WAcc)/100 IF(Acc+WAcc>0;0.675+0.85*DmgMod+(1+DmgMod+CD+WCD)*(Acc+WAcc)/100; IF(Acc+WAcc>-50;0.675+0.85*DmgMod+(1+DmgMod)*(Acc+WAcc)/100; IF(Acc+WAcc>-85;(0,5+DmgMod)*(.85+(Acc+WAcc)/100);0)))))) where Acc = player accuracy - monster deflection WAcc = base accuracy of the weapon (-5, -10 etc. for firearms) DmgMod = damage bonus you have CD = critical damage mod (0.5+any bonuses you have) WCD = base weapon critical damage mod (-.3 for firearms) Maybe you could use it on your sheet to calculate the average damage based on a distribution around a targeted accuracy value, like for the damage reduction. PS. In your sheet I think you can't go over 20DR, maybe your tables should go until 28DR (for people to be able to see what are the best weapons against the adra dragon). This works quite differently, what is the source of this code? Where is DR substracted in the end? This isn't the final damage, it's just the average damage modifier based on the accuracy. If you want to find the final damage you should multiply the result by the average base damage of the weapon and substract the DR. All that should be divided by the speed to find the dps. So where does might go? Does it modify the base weapon damage, and multiple the whole thing? Is it possible we can hold an AC to discuss a couple of details on skype? Everything is added together (weapon bonus, strength bonus, talent bonuses, critical/graze bonuses...) and multiplied with the base damage of the weapon. That's what I had with the exception of graze and crits. However your formula does not include might bonuses, and does not include graze to hit and hit to crit accuracy bonuses. So needs modifications. So would graze/cits substruct/add a base value from both base and elemental damage, or only once? Could you please source your information? The DmgMod from my formula includes every mod affecting your damage (if you have 20mig, superb weapon and 20% bonus from some talent then the DmgMod is 0.3+.45+.2=.95) and of course includes grazes, crits (see CD - which is the critical damage bonus). Like I said, it has just to be multiplied by the base weapon dmg and then apply the DR to find the final average dmg. The lashing dmg does a 25% of your total dmg against 25% of the DR of its type. But to simplify you just multiply your final weapon dmg (after DR) by 1.25. I was talking about hearth Orlan bonus and one-handed bonuses. These are not included. Also distributions in your excel are Gaussian, die distribution should be rectangular. Did not understand MIG was covered by dmgmod. Anyway, do you have time to review my scripts?

OK updated the formulas, I am not so sure how to handle elemental damage though. Since, it is considered seperately. The situation though has not changed much, late game favours dexterity builds. We still need to verify the origin of these formulas.

Here's a formula to calculate the average damage mod based on your accuracy: =IF(Acc+WAcc>=100;1+DmgMod+CD+WCD; IF(Acc+WAcc>49;1+DmgMod+(CD+WCD)*(Acc+WAcc)/100; IF(Acc+WAcc>14;0.75+DmgMod+(0.5+CD+WCD)*(Acc+WAcc)/100 IF(Acc+WAcc>0;0.675+0.85*DmgMod+(1+DmgMod+CD+WCD)*(Acc+WAcc)/100; IF(Acc+WAcc>-50;0.675+0.85*DmgMod+(1+DmgMod)*(Acc+WAcc)/100; IF(Acc+WAcc>-85;(0,5+DmgMod)*(.85+(Acc+WAcc)/100);0)))))) where Acc = player accuracy - monster deflection WAcc = base accuracy of the weapon (-5, -10 etc. for firearms) DmgMod = damage bonus you have CD = critical damage mod (0.5+any bonuses you have) WCD = base weapon critical damage mod (-.3 for firearms) Maybe you could use it on your sheet to calculate the average damage based on a distribution around a targeted accuracy value, like for the damage reduction. PS. In your sheet I think you can't go over 20DR, maybe your tables should go until 28DR (for people to be able to see what are the best weapons against the adra dragon). This works quite differently, what is the source of this code? Where is DR substracted in the end? This isn't the final damage, it's just the average damage modifier based on the accuracy. If you want to find the final damage you should multiply the result by the average base damage of the weapon and substract the DR. All that should be divided by the speed to find the dps. So where does might go? Does it modify the base weapon damage, and multiple the whole thing? Is it possible we can hold an AC to discuss a couple of details on skype? Everything is added together (weapon bonus, strength bonus, talent bonuses, critical/graze bonuses...) and multiplied with the base damage of the weapon. That's what I had with the exception of graze and crits. However your formula does not include might bonuses, and does not include graze to hit and hit to crit accuracy bonuses. So needs modifications. So would graze/cits substruct/add a base value from both base and elemental damage, or only once? Could you please source your information?

Here's a formula to calculate the average damage mod based on your accuracy: =IF(Acc+WAcc>=100;1+DmgMod+CD+WCD; IF(Acc+WAcc>49;1+DmgMod+(CD+WCD)*(Acc+WAcc)/100; IF(Acc+WAcc>14;0.75+DmgMod+(0.5+CD+WCD)*(Acc+WAcc)/100 IF(Acc+WAcc>0;0.675+0.85*DmgMod+(1+DmgMod+CD+WCD)*(Acc+WAcc)/100; IF(Acc+WAcc>-50;0.675+0.85*DmgMod+(1+DmgMod)*(Acc+WAcc)/100; IF(Acc+WAcc>-85;(0,5+DmgMod)*(.85+(Acc+WAcc)/100);0)))))) where Acc = player accuracy - monster deflection WAcc = base accuracy of the weapon (-5, -10 etc. for firearms) DmgMod = damage bonus you have CD = critical damage mod (0.5+any bonuses you have) WCD = base weapon critical damage mod (-.3 for firearms) Maybe you could use it on your sheet to calculate the average damage based on a distribution around a targeted accuracy value, like for the damage reduction. PS. In your sheet I think you can't go over 20DR, maybe your tables should go until 28DR (for people to be able to see what are the best weapons against the adra dragon). This works quite differently, what is the source of this code? Where is DR substracted in the end? This isn't the final damage, it's just the average damage modifier based on the accuracy. If you want to find the final damage you should multiply the result by the average base damage of the weapon and substract the DR. All that should be divided by the speed to find the dps. So where does might go? Does it modify the base weapon damage, and multiple the whole thing? Is it possible we can hold an AC to discuss a couple of details on skype?

Here's a formula to calculate the average damage mod based on your accuracy: =IF(Acc+WAcc>=100;1+DmgMod+CD+WCD; IF(Acc+WAcc>49;1+DmgMod+(CD+WCD)*(Acc+WAcc)/100; IF(Acc+WAcc>14;0.75+DmgMod+(0.5+CD+WCD)*(Acc+WAcc)/100 IF(Acc+WAcc>0;0.675+0.85*DmgMod+(1+DmgMod+CD+WCD)*(Acc+WAcc)/100; IF(Acc+WAcc>-50;0.675+0.85*DmgMod+(1+DmgMod)*(Acc+WAcc)/100; IF(Acc+WAcc>-85;(0,5+DmgMod)*(.85+(Acc+WAcc)/100);0)))))) where Acc = player accuracy - monster deflection WAcc = base accuracy of the weapon (-5, -10 etc. for firearms) DmgMod = damage bonus you have CD = critical damage mod (0.5+any bonuses you have) WCD = base weapon critical damage mod (-.3 for firearms) Maybe you could use it on your sheet to calculate the average damage based on a distribution around a targeted accuracy value, like for the damage reduction. PS. In your sheet I think you can't go over 20DR, maybe your tables should go until 28DR (for people to be able to see what are the best weapons against the adra dragon). This works quite differently, what is the source of this code? Where is DR substracted in the end?

Are you sure that grazes and crits are not multiplicative? If they are not do they also affect elemental damage?

My script actually works differently than your formulas. See below. Please, if you could give me some feedback. I am still looking for someone to review my scripts in MATLAB.

Here's a formula to calculate the average damage mod based on your accuracy: =IF(Acc+WAcc>=100;1+DmgMod+CD+WCD; IF(Acc+WAcc>49;1+DmgMod+(CD+WCD)*(Acc+WAcc)/100; IF(Acc+WAcc>14;0.75+DmgMod+(0.5+CD+WCD)*(Acc+WAcc)/100 IF(Acc+WAcc>0;0.675+0.85*DmgMod+(1+DmgMod+CD+WCD)*(Acc+WAcc)/100; IF(Acc+WAcc>-50;0.675+0.85*DmgMod+(1+DmgMod)*(Acc+WAcc)/100; IF(Acc+WAcc>-85;(0,5+DmgMod)*(.85+(Acc+WAcc)/100);0)))))) where Acc = player accuracy - monster deflection WAcc = base accuracy of the weapon (-5, -10 etc. for firearms) DmgMod = damage bonus you have CD = critical damage mod (0.5+any bonuses you have) WCD = base weapon critical damage mod (-.3 for firearms) Maybe you could use it on your sheet to calculate the average damage based on a distribution around a targeted accuracy value, like for the damage reduction. PS. In your sheet I think you can't go over 20DR, maybe your tables should go until 28DR (for people to be able to see what are the best weapons against the adra dragon). Actually, I am not the guy behind the excel sheet. I am running a MATLAB simulation. DR can have any number etc.

Thank you. Luckily it's very close to what we had. Will revise.

Personally, I've got no doubts - damage modifiers can only continue to go up as the series progresses, which only helps Dex over Might. It's a certainty to me that at some point - whether it be in the PoE 1 expansion(s) or in PoE 2 - Might will be completely and totally overshadowed by Dex for all auto-attacker builds. Casters obviously still benefit from Might to get more out of each spell. Looks like you've done some good work though - though I haven't checked your formulas over in detail. Looking forward to seeing what you can come up with. If you can produce some good graphs for communicating how the current system makes Might less and less relevant as the levels get higher, maybe we can convince Obsidian to change it - hopefully by just making Might multiplicative (the most obvious solution) or making weapon enchants actually change the base damage (the least intrusive and most intuitive solution). This is exactly what happens. Yes, I have graphs and I can show you if you like. High might is good early on and then it decays and dexterity easily takes over if you stack savage attack, vulnerable attack and a superb weapon mod. What people also tend to miss is that in cases if high DR, it is also better to have a fast hitting rate, because you still get 20% of damage going through anyway. So the high might may be advantageous in a very narrow window of relative high DR, but not too high. If you chech the foe DR distributions I plotted, you will notice there is no foe at all in this narrow window. So overall, stack savage attack and vulnerable attack all the time. Savage attack is a no brainer for all the time, vulnerable attack needs to be switched off if enemies have very low DR. So, I am waiting feedback on: 1. updating the attack speed formulas 2. on having a volunteer to go through my codes

OK, I tested myself using fraps/virtualdub how the reload time was calculated and everything is multiplicative like I suspected. Here are the numbers for the arquebus (used the reload time without the delay you have between actions - which is about 5frames): - 10dex, no other buff - 188frames (base) - 10dex, swift aim (1.5 x reload time) - 126frames (188/1.5=125.3) - 10dex, swift aim (1.5 x reload time), gunner (1.2 x reload time) - 105frames (188/1.5/1.2=104.4) - 20dex, swift aim (1.5 x reload time), gunner (1.2 x reload time) - 81frames (188/1.5/1.2/1.3=80.3) - 20dex, swift aim (1.5 x reload time), gunner (1.2 x reload time), chant (1.2 x reload time) - 66frames (188/1.5/1.2/1.3/1.2=66.95) The results are pretty spot on, with the differences within 1frame. I may have time to work on this again tomorrow. Could you please give me the full formula including the base value, so I can update my calculations?

@ peddroelm I am now travelling overseas, I won't have access to PoE for 2 weeks, but have MATLAB and my scripts with me. If you can send me data, I can do the scripting. @ iszathi Please private message me your email and I can send you the scripts. Thanks! Will be a slow horse for a couple of days.

Things are not simple, for sure. I continually get different peaks for different conditions. I am currently confident though that dexterity builds get the edge on late game, while might builds yield higher DPS early. Let's keep some doubts though, till we verify the formulas. Average_Foe_Base_Deflection=43.61 Average_Foe_Base_DR =8.85 They are also shown here: http://imgur.com/LS3n5p7 They are information for each foe are taken from prima guide. However, I did not use the average in my calculations, foes were weighted by their size (delfection * DR). This means that the DPS against Adra dragon will count a lot more than a Xaurip, when optimising. Again neither the average size was used, but the cumulative weighted DPS against all of them. The average foe size is highlighted by the red box in this image: http://imgur.com/Lm5kGNv It is indeed correct that slash will face the highest overall DR, this though is not a very significant effect. Slash will face on average +10% DR from pierce, and crush -10% from pierce. Crush is by far the best. The best combined DR is crush/pierce. The Sabre is pulling from the rest due to the impact on crits. I do not think you mean per 100 attacks, since number of attacks is depending in dexterity. I think DPS would be better. What you've asked was shown here: http://imgur.com/HoUexDH If you want something more specific, please give me specific input. However, if you want my advise for late game, do not think twice about savage attack + vulnerable attack + weapon focus. They are a must. If you want to optimize your build towards something like the Adra Dragon the one-handed talent is handy. However, this is the only case it's useful. I would prefer to go with envenomed strike as a counter for bosses, as it brings a lot more damage. I am happy to share my scripts, and desperately need a reviewer! ::wink::wink:: Thanks for your response.

Anyway, I also need to include the effect of armor delay to get a better estimate of optimum might/dexterity per weapon. Do we know, what how armor affects combat speed? Can someone give me the whole formula for combat speed? Attack_Time = ( ( Attack_Frames(Weapon_Loop) + Recovery_Frames(Weapon_Loop) * ( 1 - Attack_Speed_Mod ) + Reload_Frames(Weapon_Loop) * (1 - Reload_Speed_Mod) + 10 ) / (1 + Dexterity*0.03 ) )/30; or as Demonjack suggested: (attack_frame + recovery_frames + attack_delay + recovery_delay) / (1 + ((Dexterity - 10) * 0.0225)) Would armor increase recovery speed i.e. through attack speed mod?

Well, I think Paladin can make a formidable combination of DPS, tank and support. There are certainly a few things, I don't like with Paladins are: - Flames of Devotion and Lay on Hands: Neither of them has actually does anything, nor their follow up skills. I am aware people think that FoD+Shielding flames is good, but truth is it has a very small range to actually affect all the party under its umbrella. Wasting two skills for something that is worth half a skill is not so interesting. - Lay on Hands has a very slow casting speed. - Greater Lay on Hands is a joke. I will not even comment on it. - Sword and the shepherd does not heal the Paladin. So wasting two skills just to heal the party a bit does not worth the effort. It should have healed the Paladin by half. - Strange mercy does not heal the Paladin. It should have healed the Paladin by half. So basically, the best way to build the Paladin is to avoid all Paladin talents. They are garbage. Make use of their exceptional level 1 ability. Their DR aura, sworn enemy, revive,and hastening ability are just awesome. Take a combination of tank and DPS skills and you have a strong character.

I forgot to mention that all this is based on carrying a bucket shield on the off-hand. Dexterity increases when you add a quality mod. If you don't have a damage boosting quality mod, then having more might is more useful. At about 0.2 quality mod balanced might-dexterity yields the best results. Dexterity raises up when the weapon damage multiplier is 0.45. Weapon multiplier is not enough for dexterity you have to stack it with savage attack and vulnerable attack to start shine. Obviously this is mere theory-crafting. Anyway, any volunteers to help me?