An Exercise in Tankiness (an untested Class Build-ish topic)

[Jojobobo]

How recently has it been tested that Wizard's Double is dispelled by other attack rolls (i.e. those targeting Reflex/Fort/Will)? Because I got hit by the Prone vs. Fortitude part of a wolf attack and Wizard's Double didn't get dispelled.

 

I suppose it could be because it's a roll on top of a roll (the wolf needs to at least graze for the Prone part to proc), and not an attack which is primarily targeting a non-Deflection defence. I'll find out through play I guess whether other rolls dispell it, but it's at least good to know that rolls from other rolls (all the Rogue strikes, that sort of thing) don't appear to break it on hits/crits.

[Raven Darkholme]

Prone's and the like don't dispel it, I just recently found that out myself, but as you say it's a secondary roll.

[Jojobobo]

Yeah it is only on the secondary rolls, it just had it dispelled by a Reflex targeting bolt from a Will-O-Wisp. Still, not having to worry about secondary rolls is something - a lot of enemies seem to have attacks target Deflection and then have an annoying secondary effect that targets a difference defence, so it's definitely a plus that these don't break Wizard's Double.

[Raven Darkholme]

That's why I love me some Coastal Aumaua, cause some of these secondary roll causing deflection attacks actually get defended by the +20 on the first, DEFLECTION roll, which makes Wizard Double quite good against those attacks early game, not only do you have +40 from WD but +20 from Aumaua.

[Dr <3]

Even a wood elf can be a good choice. You got +5 def and +5 ref vs about everything that is ranged. The +10 to all def from wild orlan is sure stronger, but is actually useful only against dragons/ creatures with fear aura. And You sill are a wizard, and a lot of spells will benefit from the +5 acc.

 

Edit: costal aumaua is super strong in early game, where only cc option of enemies is prone or stun, but decrese in efficacy as the game go on. Anyway is worth to remember that some of dragon attacks can cause also prone ( if you survive to the massive dmg) and are affected by aumaua racial.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Dr <3

[Jojobobo]

Expanding on my WIP, just got per encounter Wizard's Double and... it's good! Currently at level 9 with it active I'm hitting 140 Deflection. I just went through Teir Nowneth, and comparing it to a Dargul's accuracy we get (I love that the roll is high and it's still a miss):

 

 

This 83 deficit means that the Dargul has a 2% chance to graze me, and a 98% chance to miss. The Dargul scored a lucky paralysis against me (I think they roll against Reflex), and what I then got was:

 

 

Even while paralysed, he only had a 7% chance to hit me, 3.5% if I'd had Llengrath's Displaced Image active - and he didn't manage it. To put it another way for emphasis: with one of the worst possible Deflection debuffs in the entire game, an enemy still didn't succeed in hitting me.

 

A huge advantage of it being per encounter is also that now I'm free to use the infamous Eldritch Aim + Combusting Wounds + Chillfog + Essential Phantom + Arcane Assault combo to shear through enemies, all the while with huge Deflection. Other combos I've been using to great effect are Eldritch Aim + Curse of the Blackened Sight + Belt of the Royal Deadfire Cannoneer Torrent of Flame, as well as Eldritch Aim + Curse of the Blackened Sight + Deleterious Alacrity of Motion + Firebrand. With the latter, the Blind accuracy drop means I can still maintain Wizard's Double easily enough while pounding away with Eldritch Aim Firebrand on their sucky debuffed Deflection.

 

While (as has been stated a lot) a hit against any defence can disable Wizard's Double, as of next level (level 10) I'll have at least 100 in each defence and 140+ Deflection. When you couple this to accuracy debuffs like Curse of the Blackened Sight and Ryngrim's Enervating Terror, scoring a hit against these defences really isn't that trivial, and even if they do break Wizard's Double once then it's easy to spare another level 1 cast to try for another.

 

With regards to Confident Aim converting Grazes into Hits, while I've experienced this once or twice it's important to remember if I have even 50 Deflection in excess of Accuracy then the fighter will still only have a 35% chance to Graze and so a 7% chance to hit - close to 1/20 grazes resulting in a hit. If my Deflection excess is even higher, this chance for Graze to Hit conversion dries up pretty rapidly.

 

Before getting Wizard's Double per encounter, I'll say using it Act I with high Deflection is a godsend. Phantoms could not stun-lock me, as they weren't hitting often enough to get their stuns in, and when they did their durations were short with the high Fortitude from the Helmsman's Uniform. Using Eldritch Aim + Curse of the Blackened Sight + Belt of the Royal Deadfire Cannoneer Torrent of Flame, the Caed Nua throne room was easy - no need for any Stealth.

 

While Act II isn't the best barometer for difficulty, so far the build seems to be fairing extremely well. It's worth remembering that there's a fair few sections of the game that are melee heavy with few spellcasters, so I think giving enemies this much trouble to even manage a hit is pretty ridiculous. I think when I pick up Drawn in Spring (which I'll probably try for pretty soon) the build will start to become much more of a monster, as after dropping a load of spells on enemies' heads the Wounding lash should polish off the rest pretty easily.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Jojobobo

[Jojobobo]

Ugh, as another update it looks like Wizard's Double may be bugged so that some misses targeting other defences can break it (I've reported it with a corroborating screenshot). If it's a far-reaching bug than the USP of the build is thoroughly down the toilet, so I'll keep my eyes peeled - hopefully it's an oddly specific problem bug that usually isn't the case.

 

It seems like I've barely played this game and not encountered some sort of specific bug which has made me give up on a build, having run into the Fire Godlike permanent Battle-Forged DR bug early, then the Bash bug on a Barbarian where it would trigger several times through Carnage, then the Confident Aim bug when Fighters were doing a stack more damage then they should have been, and now probably this.

 

If Deadfire doesn't shape up in this regard I'll probably boycott future Obsidian games. It's a bit of a slap around the face to still feel like a beta tester this late on after a game's release, having wasted something like 80+ hours on playthroughs that I've ended prematurely because of issues exactly like this.

 

EDIT: AoEs of spells targeting other defences seem to behave normally (no Wizard's Double dispel on miss/graze, dispel on hit/crit). Hopefully something about how Flesh Construct Knock Downs are put together accounts for this bug (some part of it is auto-hitting and isn't mentioned in the combat log), and it is a very specific issue. If I see it elsewhere I'll mention it in this thread and where I've bug reported.

 

EDIT 2: Divine Mark also dispels on a graze.

 

EDIT 3: Or seemingly it doesn't, I'm really not sure anymore.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Jojobobo

[Jojobobo]

So after my minor tantrum when I thought the build would be entirely bugged more or less, I thought I'd update this WIP it seems like the bug is (currently) entirely isolated to Flesh Constructs. That's certainly something I can live with, I'm sure there'll be more examples of weird auto-hitting attacks but for the most part they seem absent in the game. I guess I shouldn't be so frustrated, but this is the worst game I've played out of a laundry list of extremely buggy games where bugs have interfered with me completing the game (usually as is the case for Pillars, they have broken the difficulty in some way).

 

I'm not entirely sure why Divine Mark seemed to dispel it once, nothing else seemed to be responsible for the dispel (no other hits in the combat log) and yet on future Divine Marks they haven't been a problem - a truly random bug I guess. Something I have noticed is with the Company Captain's Cap you can dispel it yourself given the Cap's current bug of targeting you with Confuse - a very mild annoyance but fortunately pretty rare.

 

Anyway... onto more of the current meat of the WIP rather than bitching/moaning.

 

I've come to realise it's pretty important to retain items in the mid-game that ward against certain effects - e.g. I just bought the Hand and Key after having sold it in a hope to better maintain my defences against the Fampyr Charm effect in level 8 of the Endless Paths (bearing in mind that Rings of Deflection and Protection still give you good defences, and you benefit more from defence against specific status attacks in order to keep your Wizard's Double intact for longer). While the Looped Rope will eventually have more or less all your bases covered, it's a long time before you get it so it's best to keep a lot of stuff with you.

 

Further, while the Helmsman's Uniform is used to bolster Fortitude as the standard armor on the build, you can flit between the other pirate armor as a need arises (for example principally most encounters only target Reflex and Deflection primarily, so going to the other pirate armor to gain more Reflex is situationally a better option).

 

Lastly Llengrath's Safeguard + Llengrath's Displaced Image essentially provide massive defences. While late game you'll want Wizard's Double plus a Scroll of Defence for +60 Deflection, most of the game you'll be running around with +40 from per encounter Wizard's Double. In encounters that are a little tougher and you anticipate keeping Wizard's Double up will be a problem, Llengrath's Safeguard + Displaced Image achieve 45 (yes you have to be below 50% Endurance for Safeguard to proc, but once it does you're extremely hard to hit with massive DR so it's not a problem), and this can be used throughout the game to prevent you relying on Scrolls of Defence. Depending on the encounter, I'm usually keeping Wizard's Double up either for a full fight with mainly Deflection/Reflex targeting groups, or half a fight otherwise - but you can cast it again if you really feel a need (most of the time I'm spamming Eldritch Aim and Chillfog). I will say Ironskin is very powerful on the build (with it taking 10 hits or crits, rather than just 1 for Wizard's Double), and I haven't had it dispel on me yet. The extra DR with the high defences really make you pretty hard to take down.

 

The build is still sorely missing Drawn in Spring (there's been fights against Trolls where they won't deal me more than 20 Endurance in a fight, but because the Might and Accuracy of the build isn't top tier they'll take 5 minutes or so to take down without using your other spells), but at least I'm too far away now. That primarily, and Looped Rope secondarily (a lot of enemies that target a non-Deflection/Reflex defence are usually doing so to inflict a status) will really kick the build up a notch I feel.

 

It'll probably be a while before another WIP post, I'll probably only update on significant boss encounters, acquiring more of the signature equipment, or if the build does seem to be more buggy than first thought (jury's still a little out on that one, but more than likely stupid auto-hitting bugs are a rarity).

Edited December 14, 2017 by Jojobobo

[Jojobobo]

For more on the WIP, something I've noticed with the build that the Will defence is a bit of a let down in terms of keeping Wizard's Double up, for a Wizard there is simply no good way to spell buff it solo like there is for Fortitude and Reflex (using Citzal's Martial Power and Llengrath's Displaced Image), and high end food buffs are costly or limited (Dragon Meat stuff and Mind Grubs). So, I set about trying to pump Will high while giving myself good defences in Deflection/Reflex/Fortitude too as a standard defensive mode, without using any really pretty late game items (Maegfolc Skull, Iron Circle, Viettro's Formal Footware or Mantle of the Excavator - though with the latter two I think you can get them much earlier in WM pt II than the former).

 

I will say all of these defences are easily increased further with Llengrath's Safeguard, which automatically activates when you cast it under half health (which you can fish for by holding off on your buffing and gradually wracking up damage - especially with use of Iron Skin to give you fine control of the magnitude of the beating you're getting) to give you an extremely sizeable +20 to each defence - making you practically untouchable. Here's what I came up with:

 

Deflection

 

10 Base

+ 10 (20 base Resolve)

+ 3 (3 Resolve from Company Captain's Cap)

+ 1 (1 Resolve from Berath's Boon)

+ 25 (Superb Little Savior)

+ 6 (Weapon and Shield Style)

+ 5 (Superior Deflection)

+ 20 (Boatswain's Uniform)

+ 45 (level 16)

 

= 125

 

Then either + 25 from Llengrath's Displaced Image for 150, or if you can maintain it + 40 from Wizard's Double for 165.

 

Reflex

 

20 Base

- 4 (8 base Dexterity)

- 2 (9 base Perception)

+ 4 (2 Dexterity Company Captain's Cap)

+ 6 (3 Per Lilith's Shawl)

+ 2 (1 Per Song of the Heavens)

+ 25 (Superb Little Savior)

+ 6 (Weapon and Shield Style)

+ 10 (Snake's Reflexes)

+ 9 (Ring of Protection)

+ 45 (level 16)

+ 16 (8 Dexterity Citzal's Martial Power)

+ 20 (Llengrath's Displaced Image)

 

= 157

 

Fortitude

 

20 Base

+ 6 (13 base Might)

+ 8 (14 base Con)

+ 6 (3 Might Pensiavi mes Rèi)

+ 2 (1 Might Gift from the Machine)

+ 4 (2 Con Company Captain's Cap)

+ 5 (Little Savior)

+ 10 (Bear's Fortitude)

+ 9 (Ring of Protection)

+ 45 (level 16)

+ 32 (8 Might + Con Citzal's Martial Power)

 

= 147

 

Will

 

20 Base

+ 20 (20 base Resolve)

+ 8 (14 base Intellect)

+ 6 (3 Resolve Company Captain's Cap)

+ 2 (1 Resolve Berath's Boon)

+ 14 (2 Intellect, 10 Will Noble's Stay resting bonus)

+ 5 (Little Savior)

+ 10 (Bull's Will)

+ 20 (Boatswain's Uniform)

+ 45 (level 16)

 

= 150

 

This provides Deflection/Reflex/Fortitude/Will of 165/157/147/150 as standard - with Fortitude buffable into the 150 range with Wit Der Jerky/prostitute resting bonuses/acquisition of better items (Siege Breaker Gauntlets/Iron Circle/Garodh's Chorus and taking Mantle of the Excavator as your neck slot), keeping the build rock solid through tricky areas like Abbey of the Fallen Moon. As mentioned with Llengrath's Safeguard active you can hit 185/177/167/170 easily, making you effectively unassailable for encounters where you use it also (and later making practically immune to status with the Looped Rope), and forgoing the need for Scroll of Defense spam.

 

Noble's Stay lasts for two rests, so while it necessitates a little more back-tracking than a Caed Nua bonus it's not near as bad as lasting for one rest like the Golden Whale. If you're using two Citzal's Martial Power per tough encounter (and you have 4 casts), that means 4 tough encounters with Noble's Stay active factoring a single rest.

 

Also, having played with Drawn in Spring now, it is very nice for the build, playing well into the tank angle by allowing you to outlast your enemies. Hopefully someone is still enjoying these updates, I thought people would enjoy seeing a build develop over time rather than it being dropped out as a finished product. It's sometimes nice to track how and why some changes were made in a final build.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Jojobobo

[Dr <3]

I read everything with pleasure, i was curious about how the build turned out. Seems it is working fine to me, good job

[Jojobobo]

Cheers! Yeah I'm pretty confident it'll work fine, I'm just about to plough through most of Act III and WM Pt I now, but overall I'm pleased with the results so far. I think I might take Envenomed Strike over Deep Pockets, as I haven't really got the lore to do too much with scrolls anyway and Llengrath's Safeguard can probably take some of the slack from Scrolls of Defence. That'll give the build some more punchiness, with the Defences it's really not hard to run straight to casters to take them out as disengagement attacks don't do a lot.

[Jojobobo]

So, as 3.08 is going to heavily nerf the pirate outfits (from +20 Deflection +20 other defence to +9/+9), I'm going to post a part two thread and shelve this one because enough of the information is soon to be obsolete. I'll link in here when I've posted the new thread up.

 

EDIT: Here's part II.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Jojobobo