[1.1.3] Blessing of Pharasma adds 2 dice to Weapon Check! (who knew?!)

[mccrispy]

Device: Hudl 2
OS: Android 5.1
PACG build: 1.1.3

 

Pass & Play: OFF
Permadeath: OFF
Mode: Quest
Party Members: Valeros, Lini, Ezren
Turn Order: per party
Scenario:?
Difficulty: Legendary
Wildcards: Bury Spells and Blessings, Checks for Boons +3, All Checks +1 (or at least I think that's what they were)
Location: Deeper Dungeons
Trigger: Blessing of Pharasma

 

Valeros Encounters Xanesha in the Deeper Dungeons. Ezren Discards Toxic Cloud, Valeros Reveals Frost Battleaxe +1, Lini Discards Blessing of Pharasma. Imagine my surprise when ​two​ D10 are added to the check! You can even tell they are from the BoP because they are Lini's colour.

 

So I cancelled the BoP and played a different  Blessing (the one for Barriers). When I came to take the second Combat Check, Lini Discarded BoP but this time only one D10 got added.

 

In the linked screenies, Valeros's dice are Orange, Lini's dice are Field Green and Ezren's should be Outsider (but there's a bug that means that the D6 from Toxic Cloud is Orange - non-Blessing effects don't seem  to pick up the correct colour).

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wezj32synqgsyrb/AADiKA6hEhfWje6vfKzHraeoa?dl=0

Edited September 9, 2016 by mccrispy

[Kiirnodel]

Working as designed (not a bug).

 

A Blessing of Pharasma adds 2 dice to any check where a spell was played. By your own description, on that first check Ezren played Toxic Cloud (by discarding it). This triggers the Blessing of Pharasma to add 2 dice instead of 1.

 

It doesn't add two dice on any later checks because the spell wasn't played on that second check.

 

A great way to trigger the bonus die from BoP is by playing a minor spell (like Guidance or Strength) with a different character. The Blessing gives 2 dice as long as any spell is played during that check (doesn't matter who).

[RedPred]

No way, that is a bug.

Toxic cloud and Pharasma blessing are active in both the images. You can see the modifier and the card on the side and if you count the orange D6 dices there are no doubts. Then one image has only one green dice. He probably has postponed the spell for the second fight or had 2 spells.

Anyway an other bug.

[mccrispy]

Working as designed (not a bug).

 

A Blessing of Pharasma adds 2 dice to any check where a spell was played. By your own description, on that first check Ezren played Toxic Cloud (by discarding it). This triggers the Blessing of Pharasma to add 2 dice instead of 1.

 

It doesn't add two dice on any later checks because the spell wasn't played on that second check.

 

A great way to trigger the bonus die from BoP is by playing a minor spell (like Guidance or Strength) with a different character. The Blessing gives 2 dice as long as any spell is played during that check (doesn't matter who).

Aha! That's a subtlety that I hadn't twigged before! Thanks very much

 

For reference, here's the text of BoP

 

Discard this card to add 1 die to a check.

Discard this card to add 2 dice to a check if a spell was played during that check.

Discard this card to explore your location.

 

I'd always assumed that it only affected "the Spell", rather than "the Check" and that it was the dice added by the Spell that were affected. You live and learn (hopefully) Edited September 9, 2016 by mccrispy

[mccrispy]

No way, that is a bug.

Toxic cloud and Pharasma blessing are active in both the images. You can see the modifier and the card on the side and if you count the orange D6 dices there are no doubts. Then one image has only one green dice. He probably has postponed the spell for the second fight or had 2 spells.

Anyway an other bug.

 

Ah, but Toxic Cloud wasn't Played on the second Check, it was played on the first Check and is still in effect on the second. Does that make a difference?

 

The screenies are actually named for what you are looking at, but here's what I did so it's clear

 

First check: Revealed Axe, Discarded Toxic Cloud, Discarded BoP, took screenie, cancelled BoP, played Blessing of Abadar, rolled check (succeeded)

Second check: Revealed Axe, Discarded BoP, took screenie, rolled check (succeeded)

 

So what the screenies show is not what I rolled on, but the effect that BoP had on the dice pool for each Check. Hope that makes sense.

[RedPred]

If you look carefully the second fight image with one green dice, you read in the fight modifier box (where the scenario powers are listed) [spell symbol] Toxic Cloud.

As I said, in all cases there is a bug. If you used the spell there and if you did not.

[mccrispy]

So, I'm definitely wrong in my post - the BoP should have added two Valeros Strength dice to the first check, I get that. Question is now, should it also have added two dice to the second check. I don't believe that it should as the Toxic Cloud wasn't played on the second check. It's a subtle difference, but taking the cards at face value (and remembering the golden rules), but I think it's correct.

 

If we're all agreed on that, I'll mark the thread as Answered.

[RedPred]

Yes, Kiirnodel solved the question if the second spell wasn't casted. Anyway there is a minor bug for devs to correct the modifier listed in successive rolls of the same encounter for what I can see. So you are always an exceptional bug-finder

[mccrispy]

Yes, Kiirnodel solved the question if the second spell wasn't casted. Anyway there is a minor bug for devs to correct the modifier listed in successive rolls of the same encounter for what I can see. So you are always an exceptional bug-finder

Toxic cloud has the text

Display this card when a character encounters a bane. Any character who encounters a monster this turn adds 1d6 with the Poison trait to her combat check. Discard this card at the end of this turn.

 

So I played TC on the first check , but it is displayed for the whole turn so the TC bonus is present for both checks. The key thing is whether it only triggers the BoP effect when it is first played, rather than while it is displayed. I believe that it is the former, not the latter. In which case there is no bug. Agreed?

[RedPred]

Sorry, I don't remember the exact spell text. So if it has to be applied to the turn... then it is correct the modifier in the second fight and that single dice with Pharasma is definitively a bug mate. And the thread is not solved yet.

[mccrispy]

It doesn't add two dice on any later checks because the spell wasn't played on that second check.

 

Sorry, I don't remember the exact spell text. So if it has to be applied to the turn... then it is correct the modifier in the second fight and that single dice with Pharasma is definitively a bug mate. And the thread is not solved yet.

Hmmmm... I'm still unsure on this one. Here''s the rules from the physical game:

Playing a card means activating that card’s power by revealing, displaying, discarding, recharging, burying, or banishing that card.

• Reveal: Show it from your hand then put it back in your hand.

• display: Place it faceup in front of your character, unless stated otherwise; the card’s powers function until it’s discarded.

• discard: Put it into your discard pile—a stack of faceup cards next to your deck.

• Recharge: Put it facedown at the bottom of your character deck.

• Bury: Put it under your character card (likely losing access to it for the rest of the scenario).

• Banish: Put it back in the box, shuffling it in with the other cards of the same type (thus losing it for good).

 

On the first check I Played the TC - so this is unambiguous.

On the second check the TC was already Displayed, so I'm not sure whether this counts as having Played a Spell on the Check.

 

I'm open to input on this, but it's going to take logic, reference to posts by authorities that I recognise, or rulings by Obsidian/Paizo, rather than just bald assertions by fellow forum members to persuade me one way or the other.

[mccrispy]

OK, I did some digging and found a source on the Paizo forum from an MVP http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qlvq?Combo-Blessing-of-Zarongel-Incendiary-Cloud#2

 

Here, Hawkmoon269 says

 

 

 

So here is an example turn (cutting out irrelevant steps):

 

Merisiel encounters a monster with a check to defeat of combat 10.

 

Seoni plays Incendiary Cloud (+2d4).

Merisiel plays her Dart (Dexterity + 1d4).

Kyra plays Blessing of Zarongel.

Merisiel will roll 3d12 + 3d4. Her check will have the traits Dart, Ranged, Piecing, Basic, and Fire.

Merisiel defeats the monster.

 

Merisiel plays a blessing to explore her location.

She encounters a villain with a check to defeat of combat 10 then combat 12.

 

For the first check Merisiel plays her Dart again.

Seoni plays Blessing of Pharasma. No spell was played on this check.

Incendiary Cloud (+2d4) is still in effect, but was not played on this check.

Merisiel will roll 2d12 + 3d4. Her check will have the traits Dart, Ranged, Piecing, Basic, and Fire.

She succeeds.

 

For the second check she again plays her Dart.

Kyra plays Guidance (+1).

Seonie plays another Blessing of Pharasma.

Incendiary Cloud (+2d4) is still in effect, but was not played on this check.

Merisiel willl roll 3d12 + 3d4 + 1. Her check will have the traits Dart, Ranged, Piecing, Basic, and Fire.

She succeeds.

 

Incendiary Cloud and Toxic Cloud are analogous in their effects, so I'm happy to take this as correct for my situation. So, it is as Kiirnodel says. BoP works on the first Check, but not on the second.

Edited September 9, 2016 by mccrispy

[RedPred]

Well explained. Great work of searching also. I was wrong for sure, sorry guys.

That example is so instructive that it would be great to pin it somewhere for all new players to understand game mechanics.

[mccrispy]

And that's why Hawkmoon269 is a Paizo MVP