Barbarian & novice suffering

[Dr <3]

I'm toying with a new barbarian build, this time my mais will be a pissed off brawler who use only his punches.

Up to now novice suffering seem to work very well, i just want to point 2 things for who is not aware:

1) the dmg bonus due novice suffering get boosted from might but not from anything else ( es: savage attack give you +20% dmg only at the "base" Punch dmg (5-8 ), not at the novice suffering boost ( +15 at higher lvls).

So vulnerabile attack, ryona vambrace are cool, vulnerable attach no.

2) also CRIT AND GRAZE works only at the base dmg and not at the boost. This means that your dmg output is pretty stable, since the "core" off the dmg get no bonus no malus ( and do +50% or -50% of a 5-8 dmg is laughtable).

So as the game go on you can retrain for less per , is also good to skip all the crit multiply bonus since they are quite useless.

 

Have fun

Edited August 10, 2016 by Dr <3

[Boeroer]

I also saw the graze/crit thing when I did my cipher with fists. It was OK then because ciphers are no crit monsters anyway if they are not using Tactical Meld and Borrowed Instincts all the time.

 

However - all the other dmg mods like MIG, Soul Whip etc. I used worked correctly. Maybe I didn't notice the thing with Savage Attack or maybe I didn't even have that - but I'm pretty sure that the rest worked with the higher damage of Novice's Suffering as base. If I recall correctly, even the +2 unarmed damage from the Sandals of the Forgotten Friar got added to that base. It was some patches ago though.

[Loren Tyr]

They must have changed it then. I took a peek, as it is now the added damage is explicitly excluded from any multipliers other than Might. Quite possibly a balancing issue, a flat damage increase before multipliers would tend to add up very quickly. It's a general bit of code by the way, so the same should be true for any other effect that increases (weapon) damage by a fixed (base) amount.

[Boeroer]

Dammit - now it's too weak. Does it also work like that with Transcendent Suffereing from monk? That whimpy base damage from unarmed is really bad with Savage Attack and so on. As Dr <3 said, it's better to focus on DR reduction and other stuff then. Since you can't enchant fists this is a heavy drawback.

[Dr <3]

I was also very sad i mean, leave us at least critical dmg... Anyway so far seem powerful anyway

 

Boots of forgotten Priest still give you +2 dmg , but is solo shood of faith is much more needed

Edited August 10, 2016 by Dr <3

[Loren Tyr]

Dammit - now it's too weak. Does it also work like that with Transcendent Suffereing from monk? That whimpy base damage from unarmed is really bad with Savage Attack and so on. As Dr <3 said, it's better to focus on DR reduction and other stuff then. Since you can't enchant fists this is a heavy drawback.

 

Yup, uses the same ModifiedStat parameter. 

[Boeroer]

I was also very sad i mean, leave us at least critical dmg... Anyway so far seem powerful anyway

 

Boots of forgotten Priest still give you +2 dmg , but is solo shood of faith is much more needed

Sure - until you get durgan steel it's ok - but then they start to stink. They should have introduced more stuff like the sandals - things like pitfighter gloves or even give heavy gauntlets like siegebreaker enchantments which increase unarmed damage or give you a lash and so on. Just to give you something that balances out the (durgan) enchantments of weapons a bit.

 

Yeah, for solo play Shod-in-Faith or Boots of Speed are better. But for a party they are great. They also have a Blessing spellbind.

[Dr <3]

I will just go for the mighty tidefall as alternative weapon... But pawning around using just fist have no price. What i miss most is some kind of Life leech, too bad is only a weapon enchant

[Boeroer]

For solo play yes. With a chanter buddy you could have life leech and a burning lash for your fists. Hm, maybe a drunken chanting brawler would be nice...

By the way: how does Heart of Fury with fists look like?

Edited August 10, 2016 by Boeroer

[Livegood118]

Wait so just to be clear now, for the Monk, the +damage from transcendant suffering is no longer taken in to account when calculating lash damage? If so that freaking stinks....

[Dr <3]

Awesome of course is also more powerful as i thought, since every hit is basically a "full" hit ( no grazes ), unless you miss you get always yours 30 dmg ( more or less). And in potd you will not do much crits anyway, normally my main crit source is just the hit to crit conversion from good old durgan...

But you have a good idea... If at some point i will not be able to progress further i will roll kana or someone for fire lash + health drain, this will be a major power up.

Up to now i just miss the turning weel, that apart is like a monk with lower management ( no torment reach spam)

[Boeroer]

@Livegood118: Nono - lashes are a totally different topic. Lashes' damage is calculated with the damage you roll before it hits DR. Here every #dmg mod and stuff will be included. We're only talking about all the abilities and talents that add +x% to the weapons base damage. Those are things like Savage Attack or Reckless Assault and stuff likethat. Those +20% will be calculated with the unarmaed daage without Novice's Suffering bonus. So it's like 5 to 8 base damage * 1.2 + Novice Suffering instead of (5 to 8 base + Novice's Suffering) * 1.2

 

So those talents (Savage Attack and all that +x% damage stuff) are quite useless for anybody who uses fists. 

 

@Dr <3: Yeah, lashes are the best for this I guess. Maybe that's the main reason the monk gets lashes and no damage mods like fighters or rogues. Lashes work perfectly well with this mechanic. Maybe a paladin would do good damage with FoD fists...

Edited August 10, 2016 by Boeroer

[Dr <3]

Wait so just to be clear now, for the Monk, the +damage from transcendant suffering is no longer taken in to account when calculating lash damage? If so that freaking stinks....

I have not played monk last pach, but i'm quite sure his punches are handled differently... The monk actually "change weapon" with lvl up, i mean you get a new couple of " base " fists with better stats. Novice suffering instead gives you a straight additive bonus to your " base" punches, wich will remains always the (crappy) same.

The + xx% dmg boosts usually are calculated from the base stats of a weapon, for the monk they change, for novice suffering not.

One of the most op thinghs about the monk is that he have the better base dmg weapon in the game ( end game fists) and the better lash effects at the same time ( turning weel, up to 20% raw lash from gloves, lighting lash, ... ) And can still go for savage attack to, wich is huge for them. Oh yes and all this in an aoe cone thanks to torment reach!

 

Edit: Ninja boeroer stikes again :D. Speaking of lash and flames i liked your burning paladin build, you should copy paste it in a new thread so we can add it to the build list properly

Edited August 10, 2016 by Dr <3

[Boeroer]

 

I don't know if Novice's Suffering and Transcendent Suffering are handled differently. Maybe you're right - but

I think the monk gets so many lashes because things like Savage Attack are ineffective. Maybe Loren Tyr can clear this up with a glimpse into the code.

 

Edit: edited after you edited.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Basically it's just the Monksterlasher as a paladin with Firebrand instead of Bittercut and without Spirit of Decay.

[Loren Tyr]

Damage for Novice's Suffering does increase with level, it's actually better than Transcendent Suffering. It's +5 base, +2 every three levels after 1, so it tops out at +15 damage at level 16 (and +20 accuracy). Transcendent Suffering only gets +12 damage and +18 accuracy.

 

Anyway, technically they are implemented slightly differently. Novice's Suffering is a single talent that uses the level-scaling mechanic to get its per-level increase. For Transcendent Suffering though, there are actually 4 talents, Transcendent Suffering 1-4 given out at levels 1, 4, 7, and 10 (and removing the previous one at the same time). You actually see the numbering in the Character Sheet in-game as well. Transcendent Suffering 4 also uses level-scaling to get the last bit to level 16. Presumably this alteration was made with the introduction of White March; the use of separate talents must be a hold-over from very early development.

 

Not that this matters in the slightest in practice, though. All Sufferings use the same BonusUnarmedDamage parameter, so neither gets multipliers (other than might). 

[Dr <3]

Ok i just remember my "old" monk to get a lot more dmg with savage attack, but maybe i was wrong or that was changed

[Loren Tyr]

See for yourself; if Savage Attack did apply to the bonus damage that would have been 33 - 39. It's just a 2.4 point difference though.

[Boeroer]

Yeah - but monk's fists seem to have higher base damage (10-15) than normal ones...?

[Dr <3]

Yeah - but monk's fists seem to have higher base damage (10-15) than normal ones...?

Yes, same thing i just noted in my old monk. They do more dmg than a normal fast weapon, so maybe savage attack is not supergood but good enough. And crits are not super powerful too but have some sense.

The whole problem is the crappy base dmg of non monk char, 5-8 is ridicusly low. novice suffering would have been much better if it somehow could modify base dmg of punches, instead giving the straight plus bonus.

On the other hand maybe there is some way to exploit it...

[Boeroer]

Well - low ACC seems to be no problem because grazes/hits/crits don't make a big difference. Wizard or priest brawler anyone?

[Dr <3]

If Priest had carnage than yes! Start fight, avatar/ Champions boon, kick ass

 

( Would be obviously a god of haunt follower)

Edited August 11, 2016 by Dr <3

[Boeroer]

Or Rhymrgand - because of Aurochs/Stag carnage. That would be so cool. Carnage on a priest - even a weaker one would be great.

[Loren Tyr]

Barbarian brawler might be nice actually, with his Carnage. The Carnage damage reduction is just a -X% damage modifier, so that wouldn't affect the bonus damage either. 

[Boeroer]

Hm... How about a druidic brawler? Deflection is not too bad, ACC is not good, he can use Spiritshift but even after it runs out he can still pack a punch. Taste of the Hunt may be OK with fists.