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Card checks not occurring at end of scenario


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Cards played to defeat the villain may not function as the text intends.

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For example, Merisel can occasionally pick up a Guidance spell since it has such a low check to acquire.  If that Guidance spell is used to beat the villain, the scenario ends before the game finishes parsing: "After playing this card, if you do not have the Divine skill, banish it", and the card is returned to Merisel's hand in the post-game screen.

 

I'm aware that the physical Pathfinder ACG rules are also a little vague on what happens when villain is defeated (i.e. how immediately does the game end?), but it would make sense that the scenario wouldn't halt while a card is in the process of being banished.  Other spells that are be banished when the user doesn't have Arcane/Divine would presumably have a similar issue.

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I've done this several times in iOS 9.3.3/iPad solo play, with one character (Merisel), Pathfinder app version 1.0.3.  I know it's a bit of an edge case, but if I had the gold/cash to unlock more of the game I'd purposely find a way to have Merisel backstab the villain with a Lightning Bolt for 5d6+1d4+1 damage, knowing the spell won't get banished in the process.   ;)

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Cards played to defeat the villain may not function as the text intends.

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For example, Merisel can occasionally pick up a Guidance spell since it has such a low check to acquire.  If that Guidance spell is used to beat the villain, the scenario ends before the game finishes parsing: "After playing this card, if you do not have the Divine skill, banish it", and the card is returned to Merisel's hand in the post-game screen.

 

I'm aware that the physical Pathfinder ACG rules are also a little vague on what happens when villain is defeated (i.e. how immediately does the game end?), but it would make sense that the scenario wouldn't halt while a card is in the process of being banished.  Other spells that are be banished when the user doesn't have Arcane/Divine would presumably have a similar issue.

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I've done this several times in iOS 9.3.3/iPad solo play, with one character (Merisel), Pathfinder app version 1.0.3.  I know it's a bit of an edge case, but if I had the gold/cash to unlock more of the game I'd purposely find a way to have Merisel backstab the villain with a Lightning Bolt for 5d6+1d4+1 damage, knowing the spell won't get banished in the process.   ;)

Your case seems to be a fluke. in my experience. Spells/items played *for effect on a single check* usually ask me for recharge before ending the scenario (I'm not saying, however, that the "banish for lack of Arcane/Divine skill" logic doesn't operate differently and maybe the "banish" fails to trigger where the *recharge* doesn't.

 

On the other hand, while when you defeat the villain you *resolve your encounter* and you *close the location* (with all powers and effects following from that), you DO NOT *end your turn*. Therefore, any spells and items displayed for *effect until the end of turn* correctly (at least by current rules as written) DO NOT banish, even if you hero lacks the appropriate skill (in Meri's case, two examples would be displaying an Agility spell or Flask of Shock item  - if you always preserve those cards solely for your ultimate encounter with the villain - you should be able to preserve them and carry them from one scenario into the next)

You can use the 'Mark Solved' button beneath a post that answers your topic or confirms it's not a bug.

The time that devs don't have to spend on the forum is a time they can spend on fixing the game.

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On the other hand, while when you defeat the villain you *resolve your encounter* and you *close the location* (with all powers and effects following from that), you DO NOT *end your turn*. Therefore, any spells and items displayed for *effect until the end of turn* correctly (at least by current rules as written) DO NOT banish, even if you hero lacks the appropriate skill

I understand what you're getting at regarding the turn not fully ending after a villain is defeated.  Otherwise you might run into odd scenarios like where a character beats the villain and dies when they try drawing up to their hand size.

 

However, the pathfinder FAQ seems pretty clear that if a non-spellcaster plays a spell, they *have* to banish it.  Banishment is mandatory.  It is an action that occurs when the card is played, and thus shouldn't remain in some kind of non-banished limbo while the turn waits to end.  Here's the relevant question:

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I've just acquired a spell that says "If you do not have the Arcane or Divine skill, banish this card." My character does not have a required skill. When exactly do I banish the card—when I acquire it, or when I play it? Also, if my character isn't a spellcaster, can I actually play it?

 

You can play it—once—and then you have to banish it. (As for not being a spellcaster, think of it as using a spell from a scroll.)
 
Resolution: On page 10 of the rulebook, under "Playing Cards," add the following sentence to the end of the first paragraph:
 
"Any paragraph in the power section of a boon that doesn't involve playing the card for a particular effect is not itself a power—it's a mandatory action that you must take when you play the card."
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However, the pathfinder FAQ seems pretty clear that if a non-spellcaster plays a spell, they *have* to banish it.  Banishment is mandatory.  It is an action that occurs when the card is played, and thus shouldn't remain in some kind of non-banished limbo while the turn waits to end.

There is different FAQ that deals with cards being 'set aside' until their ultimate action is decided - such as spells, which are by default 'discarded', but can also be 'recharged' or 'banished' depending on player Skill and check success - so, yes, a 'limbo' of a sort does exist.

When you played your "Guidance' against the villain - the card left your hand and was moved over your discard. At this time, it was not in your hand and it was not in your discard pile and it was not banished - this is your 'limbo', where Guidance would remain until you dealt with the villain (at which point it should've been banished, as this action was still a part of the Villain encounter).

Note that there's a distinct difference with 'displayed' spells - they specifically remain displayed until the end of turn -as written on the card itself- and only then it is determined if they're Banished/Discarded/Recharged. Since you never get to that point when you defeat the villain - they never get banished. Yes, it is against the 'spirit' of the "Scroll use" idea, and if you played the card game you could house-rule the card is banished either way; but the current implementation in the app observes the 'letter of the rules' and as such functions as intended.

You can use the 'Mark Solved' button beneath a post that answers your topic or confirms it's not a bug.

The time that devs don't have to spend on the forum is a time they can spend on fixing the game.

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I think that may just be a bug with Guidance.  I ran into this the other day and found that Guidance ended up discarded when Merisiel used it.  But another spell (I forget which) was correctly banished

PFID-F5D45B8AF20421AC

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... but the current implementation in the app observes the 'letter of the rules' and as such functions as intended.

Ok.  I follow.

 

Looks like the paizo game devs chimed in on this exact issue a couple months back.  Seems to be a minor conflict of rules vs. intent regarding cards that should be banished when used to defeat the villain.  

 

Vic Wertz noted they were considering a rule change to banish any cards that should have been banished, after the scenario, before you rebuild your character deck.  In effect, all displayed boons would have a post-game banishment check (end of turn, end of encounter, location closing, etc) to send cards intended for single-use back to the box.

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I think that may just be a bug with Guidance.  I ran into this the other day and found that Guidance ended up discarded when Merisiel used it.  But another spell (I forget which) was correctly banished

OR, since the name of Meri starts to come up too often - maybe the issue is with her. That 'discarded' Guidance, did you see it in your Discard pile, or you only noticed it on Deck Rebuild?

I'm asking, 'cause the other day my own Meri cast a Swipe - and I even got the 'banish' animation and all - but then I looked into my Deck (not my Discard!) - and the Swipe was there, as if I recharged it automatically!?

You can use the 'Mark Solved' button beneath a post that answers your topic or confirms it's not a bug.

The time that devs don't have to spend on the forum is a time they can spend on fixing the game.

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