Ranged classes vs casters with ranged weapons

[Iucounu]

We're far from able to explain every phenomen in physics, so your statement is a bit of an exxageration to say the least. Moreover the nature of those fundamental principals you're talking about, say basic movement laws of bodys, don't really apply on such a broad and abstract term as soul. It's supposed to convey all kind of things like emotions, memories, conciousness, personality, will, where it isn't even clear how they are entangled together.  Just stuffing all that in some funny thing "soul" and using that as a tiresome placeholder is at best simplistic and not very appealing to me. But I guess tastes differ.

[JerekKruger]

We're far from able to explain every phenomen in physics, so your statement is a bit of an exxageration to say the least. Moreover the nature of those fundamental principals you're talking about, say basic movement laws of bodys, don't really apply on such a broad and abstract term as soul. It's supposed to convey all kind of things like emotions, memories, conciousness, personality, will, where it isn't even clear how they are entangled together.  Just stuffing all that in some funny thing "soul" and using that as a tiresome placeholder is at best simplistic and not very appealing to me. But I guess tastes differ.

 

Basic movement laws of bodies aren't fundamental at all...

 

As for something as broad and abstract as the soul sure, but we don't even know that souls exist and I'm inclined to believe they probably don't. Not really sure how that's relevant, Eora isn't in our universe and in Eora the soul definitely exists and are susceptible to study through science (animancy).

 

And sure, we're far from being able to explain every phenomenon in physics but the entire point of physics, or science in general, is to try to do exactly that. Just because I don't understand how, say, consciousness arises doesn't mean it doesn't arise as a result of physical processes (I tend to believe it probably does) and could eventually be explained in terms of fundamental principals of physics.

[Iucounu]

As for something as broad and abstract as the soul sure, but we don't even know that souls exist and I'm inclined to believe they probably don't. Not really sure how that's relevant, Eora isn't in our universe and in Eora the soul definitely exists and are susceptible to study through science (animancy).

Which is exactly what I think is dumb, since in our world the concept of the soul is already such a broad abstraction, containing all this immaterial things and concepts, and in the PoE it's just used as this generic "thing", which doesn't do that fact justice, and comes across as bland.

 

And sure, we're far from being able to explain every phenomenon in physics but the entire point of physics, or science in general, is to try to do exactly that. Just because I don't understand how, say, consciousness arises doesn't mean it doesn't arise as a result of physical processes (I tend to believe it probably does) and could eventually be explained in terms of fundamental principals of physics.

And how is such an explaination supposed to look like? When you see conciousness as the mere capability to perceive, there isn't even a structure with which you can express it mathematically, and since conciousness is a subjective thing, the scientific method doesn't apply either. You can't test if a stone has conciousness, or if an area of vacuum has conciousness. Science has limits.

[JerekKruger]

Which is exactly what I think is dumb, since in our world the concept of the soul is already such a broad abstraction, containing all this immaterial things and concepts, and in the PoE it's just used as this generic "thing", which doesn't do that fact justice, and comes across as bland.

 

Why should souls in PoE obey preconceptions from our world? Unlike in our world souls definitely exist in Eora, they're not some nebulous concept invented to explain things we don't understand or provide solace for those who fear death.

 

 

 

And how is such an explaination supposed to look like? When you see conciousness as the mere capability to perceive, there isn't even a structure with which you can express it mathematically, and since conciousness is a subjective thing, the scientific method doesn't apply either. You can't test if a stone has conciousness, or if an area of vacuum has conciousness. Science has limits.

 

How should I know what such an explanation would look like, I imagine we're many decades or even centuries from understanding it (if we ever do at all). As for the "mere capability to perceive", I think the capability to perceive is fascinating and poorly understood, not "mere". Sure we know fairly well how our eyes detect photons of light and generate and electrical signal which travels down the optical nerve to the brain causing certain areas of the brain to activate. We know far less about the specific details of what's going on inside the brain, that's already a fascinating question, but even if we understood that we wouldn't know what "perceiving" actually is. As for consciousness being subjective, only since we don't yet have a solid definition of what it is: there's no reason to assume we never will given our track record for turning subjective things into concrete scientifically testable things.

 

And science might have limits, but so far I've seen no better method for understanding the world we live in. If the soul is genuinely not measurable in any meaningful sense then its existence is a moot point since it, by definition, has no effect on the world we live in. If that's the case then who cares whether it exists or not, and more importantly to the topic at hand, who cares how it's treated in a fictional fantasy universe?

[brindle88]

Wow. I got a headache trying to read all of that.

[Iucounu]

Why should souls in PoE obey preconceptions from our world? Unlike in our world souls definitely exist in Eora, they're not some nebulous concept invented to explain things we don't understand or provide solace for those who fear death.

Undoubtedly, one can pull a lot out of one's ass when when it comes to fantasy worlds, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. What does it mean souls exists? Of course things that are supposed to be contents of the soul, personality and such, exist either way. You could say a soul is then something where all these things, conciousness, personality are supposedly rooted, an anchor that you can observe and perhaps manipulate. However, in what way they are rooted, could be up to debate, there would probably be a lot of stuff up to interpretation. "Scientists" in that world would perhaps even hesitate to call this anchor the soul, because they might be uncertan if it really makes up the whole nature of the being. Things were shrouded in mystery. I don't get this feeling when this term soul is used peotically and scientifically apparently interchangeably, and souls are generally treated like coffee machines, where effects in the game are explained by some sort of "push that button for that to happen, push the other button and that happens.

 

 

 

 

How should I know what such an explanation would look like, I imagine we're many decades or even centuries from understanding it (if we ever do at all). As for the "mere capability to perceive", I think the capability to perceive is fascinating and poorly understood, not "mere". Sure we know fairly well how our eyes detect photons of light and generate and electrical signal which travels down the optical nerve to the brain causing certain areas of the brain to activate. We know far less about the specific details of what's going on inside the brain, that's already a fascinating question, but even if we understood that we wouldn't know what "perceiving" actually is

Well you say it yourself, you wouldn't. What you're describing is how signals are processed in the brain, what algorithms are employed, and that's also the only thing that you can measure.

 

 

 

As for consciousness being subjective, only since we don't yet have a solid definition of what it is: there's no reason to assume we never will given our track record for turning subjective things into concrete scientifically testable things.

No, it's not about definitions, it's simply the fact that everything that can be experienced is experienced as a subject, which is more fundamental to our existence than any physical principle you might come up with. Just because there are things different subjects can appearently observe and test, like phenomena in physics, doesn't mean that's true for everything. You can observe and measure any sort of manifestation, it still wouldn't tell you nothing if the aforementioned stone actually "perceives" or not.

 

 

 

And science might have limits, but so far I've seen no better method for understanding the world we live in. If the soul is genuinely not measurable in any meaningful sense then its existence is a moot point since it, by definition, has no effect on the world we live in. If that's the case then who cares whether it exists or not, and more importantly to the topic at hand, who cares how it's treated in a fictional fantasy universe?

It might very well also have no measureable effect on the world if other human beings actually have real thoughts like you, or if they are just void biological machines. Even though it can't be determined, I'd wager you would still be concerned about that. Similiar for the soul, which is probably in it's most basic meaning and function something that ensures that people continue to exist even after there material form has vanished. So it's existence is also linked to the existence of an afterlife, which is something most people would care about too, even if it's out of the domain of science.

[evilcat]

I like Ranger. It is class with enought talents/abilities which at least look useful. It is great that you can pick your pet, and there are two modals either for bows or firearms.

Performance with accuracy buffs, Stormcaller, split arrow, penetration and stuns is hiliarious. Just zapping multiply enemies with a bow is fun effect.

And big part of it not to reproduce on other classes (penetracion and stuns and insane accuracy)

 

As for caster vs no-caster balance it is a bit weird. PoE is SP game so balance dosnt matter, player just pick classes which look fun and rush to the end. I do not care if ranger is optimal dps or not. However, no caster can hit one enemy and sometimes apply some debuff or CC. But casters could hit many enemies at once with more powerfull effect, and their base number of uses is 4/encounter (not just 1or2). At higher levels casters could spam spells more freely, even more after level 9.

 

No-caster abilities are often overbalanced. They add something, but  it is not impressive. Just a small buff. Like one extra use of knockdown, or 25% dmg buff to flame of devotion (which we can use twice per encounter, yay i suppose). Or comparison of Aura of Protection vs Armor of Faith.

 

Casters at some point get epic spells, but not many melee abilities deserve tag "epic".

 

A lot of no-caster power comes from general talents and good weapon with all enchantments. So yeah, caster could be very close to what melee and still cast spells.

 

However, i am against limiting weapon selection for classes, since every player have some imaginary vision what each class should do. It is too easy to cut off someones favorite archetype. LIke "ranger use only bows, but some want to play ranger with dual scimitars".

 

Martial class specific abilities/talents could generally be made more powerful.

There could always be more talents/abilities. Not only for high levels. Also something good to pick early. Too often only decent early talent is weapon focus.

Rule that each odd level martial class gains one more ability to choose from is not fun. Since some of them are crappy and decent things come in last levels. Better would be tier system. A bunch of talents/abilities unlocks at level 1/4/8/12.