Paladin 2.0 still need Perception?

[dogeddie]

 Thanks for the tips. I'll these stats and see how it goes.

Edited August 28, 2015 by dogeddie

[Nobear]

I'll put in the caveat that I have gotten busy in RL and still haven't played 2.0, but did beat the game on PoTD pre-2.0, and was keeping up with the changes in 2.0 up until about a week ago.

 

That said, I don't think much would change about my philosophy that, if you want an optimal party overall, your DPSers are going to get much more bang for their buck from the same DPS stats that you could give to a tank, and tanks will conversely get more bang for their buck out of tank stats. You can see that especially if you consider enemy DR: some enemies will just take a whole lot of damage stacking to even start making a significant dent, so I'd rather have some party members specialized for damage and/or CC, and one or two specialized for tanking, which aids with consistent and controlled fights. You could enable your tank(s) to dish out some damage to certain enemies that don't have too high DR, or you could make them better at tanking all enemies.

 

As for Int, I'd still try to have high Int on my paladin tank, so her Zealous Focus can cover my entire custom formation. Note, though, the new respec feature, and also there's a necklace from a vendor in Dyrford Village that increases paladin aura range by 20%. I'll probably prefer to have high Int (which grants other benefits, like longer buff durations) and something potentially better in my neck slot, but it is one option. Since I am not against min-maxing and will try to keep my paladin tank- and support- focused, I will probably dump Dex and keep Per at 10 (more to avoid a super-bad Reflex score than for its DPS benefit) to allow me to have as good of tank/support stats as I can. Keep in mind, Flames of Devotion has +20 Accuracy built-in, unless they reverted that change in 2.0 or something, so you could still use that effectively for a bit of burst damage twice per encounter (especially to finish off an enemy) and/or to trigger an order talent.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Nobear

[Ymarsakar]

Paladins with DPS talents and powers, such as flames, might want to get perception to boost your critical chances and lessen your miss chances, even with the +20 accuracy on flames.

 

But generally if your paladin is the main tank, you don't have pts to spare for dps attributes like perception. Constitution or Resolve is what tanks generally need.

 

Per used to give accuracy in the beta, back then nobody took might. So now dps needs might, dexterity, and perception or some weird balance of the 3.

 

INT used to be pretty useful for a paladin because it increased the size of their auras. But given the size of the recently changed zealous auras, you don't need INT for that any more.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[Torm51]

Paladins with DPS talents and powers, such as flames, might want to get perception to boost your critical chances and lessen your miss chances, even with the +20 accuracy on flames.

 

But generally if your paladin is the main tank, you don't have pts to spare for dps attributes like perception. Constitution or Resolve is what tanks generally need.

 

Per used to give accuracy in the beta, back then nobody took might. So now dps needs might, dexterity, and perception or some weird balance of the 3.

 

INT used to be pretty useful for a paladin because it increased the size of their auras. But given the size of the recently changed zealous auras, you don't need INT for that any more.

If you want your Auras to effect your back line you definitely need Int. If you do not then 10 Int will suffice. Even at an 18 Int your aura is not 7 meters which Is what you want so your backline doesn't have to move to close to the front. I always go high Int because auras for me are what makes the Paladin along with long lasting buffs and of course tank king but that has nothing to do with Int.

 

I take a hit to my Con for the higher Int and Leave it at 14. I Get higher through gear. I'm finding myself as a Paladin not dumping stats like Dex anymore. I hate the reflex hit now that I don't have Per to counter act it...My builds are more balanced. Which probably isn't a good thing. Also with the Nobles stay nerf in Bracken bury I've been taking a base of 16 Int. Probably too much for some people's liking.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Torm51

[Ymarsakar]

Torm, I generally used the overseer 10% ability range ring to compensate in the past for the limited size of the paladin auras. Back then the backline had even more problems, now it's less of an issue since I group my people closer up due to moon and consecrated ground healing aoe. There's also fights against shade spirits which teleport past my front line, bunching people up worked a lot better since aggro was randomly distributed around and I couldn't control them using one or two tanks.

 

With the flames buff, I also made the paladin have pike + arquebus, so if she wasn't tanking anything, she could sit exactly in the middle between the back and the front, and do damage. This made the formation a lot easier to manage.

 

That brackenbury +4 intel stay was pretty nice though, once I found it, and made the paladin aura have enough range so I didn't have to worry too much. Then again my primary dps was a cipher and a druid.They all tend to be closer together than wizards than rangers, to the front.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[Torm51]

Torm, I generally used the overseer 10% ability range ring to compensate in the past for the limited size of the paladin auras. Back then the backline had even more problems, now it's less of an issue since I group my people closer up due to moon and consecrated ground healing aoe. There's also fights against shade spirits which teleport past my front line, bunching people up worked a lot better since aggro was randomly distributed around and I couldn't control them using one or two tanks.

 

With the flames buff, I also made the paladin have pike + arquebus, so if she wasn't tanking anything, she could sit exactly in the middle between the back and the front, and do damage. This made the formation a lot easier to manage.

Absolutely bud.  I use similar tactics as well.  I just like that ring slot for more Saving Throws but hey there isn't a right way and I have definitely done it your way too.  They both work.  By the way Ring of the Overseer and Boots of Command stack so if you make your aura larger that way too.

[Ymarsakar]

Nice to know, there's a couple of rare items I didn't buy or haven't gotten to yet to experiment with in P of E.

[Psychevore]

Currently playing a Paladin with these stats on PotD:

 

14

9

14

8

15

18

 

Single tank, use Ranger companion to pick up whatever gets by.

Zealous Focus aura and two insanely high perception Wood Elf Ciphers and a Ranger (all have 20 perception and 18 might). It's a bit of a struggle to keep them all within the aura though, but that should improve later on when I get to expand it. Really didn't see a way to get more intelligence without sacrificing too much.

 

Haven't played 2.0 much though, so it might be absolutely worthless

 

Battefield control should be incredible with these Ciphers and their perception.

 

(the perception counts for spell accuracy... right?)

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2015 by Psychevore

[Nobear]

By the way Ring of the Overseer and Boots of Command stack so if you make your aura larger that way too.

 

I'd forgotten that the aura-expanding item was a pair of boots and not a necklace, since there are several class-specific neck items. I've been saying it wrong lol!

 

(the perception counts for spell accuracy... right?)

 

From everything I've read, yes. People have been planning caster builds around high Per for a while now, especially CC-heavy builds.

 

Also, Ymarkasar, the Moon Godlike power has such a huge range it will be pretty much guaranteed to hit everyone even if you dumped Int. The visual effect triggered by it is deceptive. You are right, though, about there being an advantage to people not being too spread out for spells like Consecrated Ground, and most priest buff/healing spells really. But then, you also want any wood elves to be more than 5m back. I just find there is not enough of a buffer zone of leeway when my paladin tank's Int isn't maxed or close to maxed (without range-increasing items, that is). For some fights, like the ones with Shadows that you mentioned, the natural trend will be for your party to get more bunched up. For other fights, your party might tend to naturally spread out, or it might be more advantageous to do so based on specifics of a particular fight that affect preferred tactics.

[Ymarsakar]

 

Also, Ymarkasar, the Moon Godlike power has such a huge range it will be pretty much guaranteed to hit everyone even if you dumped Int. The visual effect triggered by it is deceptive. You are right, though, about there being an advantage to people not being too spread out for spells like Consecrated Ground, and most priest buff/healing spells really. But then, you also want any wood elves to be more than 5m back. I just find there is not enough of a buffer zone of leeway when my paladin tank's Int isn't maxed or close to maxed (without range-increasing items, that is). For some fights, like the ones with Shadows that you mentioned, the natural trend will be for your party to get more bunched up. For other fights, your party might tend to naturally spread out, or it might be more advantageous to do so based on specifics of a particular fight that affect preferred tactics.

 

 

To nobear

 

Oh sorry, I meant the Moon well from the druid line. I don't use custom parties, so it wasn't the one people were talking about here. I saw it used a few times in beta play videos, but that godlike ability isn't something I know much about. The moon well from druid aoe is a lot easier to use than consecrated ground, but I like to save high level spells and hoard them. Usually because on PotD critical path I try to fight until my fighter has less than 50% health and everyone is fatigued from going through so many areas. I try to limit rests to 0-1 per Caed Nua level, rather than the max of 2 or more that might be used per level.

 

So my party structure is changed or limited usually by the NPC strengths. Which I tweaked a bit with console, but not to the min max of what is seen in custom parties. So generally the melee tanks are pallegina and eder, but I didn't use the ranger npc much, so I don't cast or shoot from extremely long range. Aloth was supposed to do that with his weapons, but that was before they buffed wizard ranges. He kept running up as he was out of range, so I said forget this and dropped him in favor of Pallegina. So my primary dps is always the cipher, and everybody else are just the tanks and healers.

 

PoE has some fun tactical challenges, consistent with what you wrote about changing the tactical positioning based on context. The White March npcs and respecs give me an opportunity to check out some party builds which I haven't used before. Cipher retaliation build sounds pretty good, as it will save a party slot that I would need a tank for.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[Ymarsakar]

One of the new 2.0 Paladin builds I saw had 4 and 4 dexterity perception.

 

18 int, 18 resolve, near 18 might, relatively good con.

 

That was the player tank, using the rp bonus from conviction to tank even more.

 

The sword shield reflection bonus covers the low reflex roll.

 

But as a main, it's nice to trigger all those dialogue options except per.

[Torm51]

One of the new 2.0 Paladin builds I saw had 4 and 4 dexterity perception.

 

18 int, 18 resolve, near 18 might, relatively good con.

 

That was the player tank, using the rp bonus from conviction to tank even more.

 

The sword shield reflection bonus covers the low reflex roll.

 

But as a main, it's nice to trigger all those dialogue options except per.

no way man.  That's my opinion.  Even with a 10 Dex and Per and Sword and Shield style your Reflex is GOOD but it isn't great. You would have a crap Reflex on PoTD,  On easier difficulties ya you can do what you want.  Plus with that crap dex you are irrelevant offensively.  Its more important to get OK offensively now as a tank so enemies don't disengage.

[Nobear]

no way man.  That's my opinion.  Even with a 10 Dex and Per and Sword and Shield style your Reflex is GOOD but it isn't great. You would have a crap Reflex on PoTD,  On easier difficulties ya you can do what you want.  Plus with that crap dex you are irrelevant offensively.  Its more important to get OK offensively now as a tank so enemies don't disengage.

 

I would also be very hesitant to dump both Dex and Per because of how low Reflex would be even with Sword and Shield Style.

 

But about discouraging enemies from disengaging, do we actually know which factors the enemy AI looks at, specifically, and which ones it might not factor in?

[Certus]

Low Dex and per could work if you were a pale elf with scions for dr, but Paladins pretty talent starved so I would say not really great. Average Dex and int are fine I think, depending on what aura you haVe.

 

Some of those builds are just silly, a fighter with no strength who can hold engagement with six plus people and when he hits them its so low it's sort of laughable. A super fit chronic weakling, a dancing monkey in full plate (looking at you Orlans) who just stands in the middle of a group of people poking their knees with the equivalent of a butter knife while everyone tries to hit him, and the best part is all six can not hurt him! That should be a class of its own called "clown".

 

I think they fixed the engagement system pretty well in the last patch, and the wary defender op build too.

[Ymarsakar]

 

no way man.  That's my opinion.  Even with a 10 Dex and Per and Sword and Shield style your Reflex is GOOD but it isn't great. You would have a crap Reflex on PoTD,  On easier difficulties ya you can do what you want.  Plus with that crap dex you are irrelevant offensively.  Its more important to get OK offensively now as a tank so enemies don't disengage.

 

I would also be very hesitant to dump both Dex and Per because of how low Reflex would be even with Sword and Shield Style.

 

But about discouraging enemies from disengaging, do we actually know which factors the enemy AI looks at, specifically, and which ones it might not factor in?

 

 

 

They use cc and other debuffs on the guy with the highest accuracy. So my cipher with 18+ per always gets paralyzed first after the tank gets it, and people who switch to one handed not only have a higher accuracy but their deflection is lower, perhaps motivating the AI to get them with the auto script. Spell casting seems to be pretty big. These are the AI for the wildling fishes. I would speculate that other mob types would have different AI based on their abilities, like the spirits did in 1.0

 

After a few battles, like 10-20, I've figured out that if I can make a line and block them using terrain or their own bodies, I can lure a couple of their special attackers to my backline and kill them. Problem is generally when this tactic pulls too many of them, so now everyone is mixed in together with everyone else, making aoe spells harder to use. Engagement worked as it did before White march, when you blocked a person charging character Z, engagement allows you to stop people that are running towards another target.

 

In a couple of situations, my tank needed more than one engagement slot to stop people from flowing around behind him and then targeting the healers that were behind the tank. Longer weapons also work better for triggering engagement which interrupts ai of some enemies switching targets.

 

Reflex saves aren't as important as fortitude and will. 200 endurance tanks with 20+ dr can absorb most of the spell damage. And the enemy can only cast spells against people who refuse to use terrain blocks and interrupting attacks/spells/flanking maneuvers. This is where the OP Paladin lay on hands and auras come into play.

 

The cc debuffs are more dangerous than pure spike damage, just as it is in reverse when on the player's side.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Ymarsakar