Quick switch for solo melee wizard or cipher?

[Nobear]

Hi guys,

 

I know what the tooltip says, but I read recently and can no longer find where I read that this talent results in some kind of cheese for spell casters. Could anyone elaborate on that?

 

On PoTD I have started two solo characters: a level 4 melee wizard with 18/3/20/3/17/17, and a level 3 melee cipher with 18/9/4/18/10/19. They are both currently wearing plate. The wizard with the relatively glass-cannon-y build (but with Arcane/Hardened Veil) feels far tankier and overall stronger. They are both currently wearing the heaviest and most protective armor they have found.

 

One of the issues I'm having with the cipher is that even fast-casting spells take a long time when cast immediately after a weapon swing that grants me the necessary focus. Then there's another painfully long delay after the spell is cast before I can start auto attacking again, enough that I've found it not worthwhile to cast Mental Binding in the vast majority of cases. I believe in both cases it is due to recovery after the power or swing is performed.

 

I am wondering if the Quick Switch talent would help with this at all. I'm assuming it would let me switch faster from a ranged weapon alpha strike to my melee DPS (or tank when I get a retaliation item) setup. But if this is all it would do, it's probably not worth getting. I am thinking maybe dumping Dex was a bad idea, even if my thought is to eventually gain most of my focus through retaliation items + Carow Golan.

 

Then for the wizard, is the grimoire cooldown reduction simply the amount of time you have to wait out of combat when switching spells or grimoires, and nothing more?

 

Thanks for any info.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Nobear

[Raven Darkholme]

You dumped Dex? Lol.

[Nobear]

Yo I was just trying it out. I maxed Dex on my wizard, but alexis said he dumped it to max Per and Res. I didn't feel like starting over with the same class.

 

You make yourself out to be some pro, often talking about how easy the game is, but what matters to people on these forums is whether you can apply experience toward actually saying something helpful or not.

 

Edit: I don't just want to rag on people here, I want to point out positive examples of what I'm talking about. You know who I miss from this community that I haven't seen in a while, who applies their experience to help people? Gromnir, Luckman, Malveaux... Nakia admits to not being an expert, but loves to share strategy and has interesting things to say about European martial arts and other real life war tactics... there's also a guy whose name I'm forgetting but loves rogues and links to good builds when new players ask. Of course everyone who was on these forums at least a couple of months ago knows of Pedroelm and all the work he did testing game mechanics to answer anyone's question about how a spell or ability really works. I also have to say that Alexis came into this community with an aggressive tone and didn't properly fact check at first, but I think he has learned and is really a decent guy and wants to help, and he is gaining experience and growing on me as a member of this community. I do have him largely to thank for swaying my decision to make a wizard my first solo character.

 

I am probably forgetting other great contributors who are not so active these days, but it is my hope that some of those I mentioned or am forgetting come back for the expansion, and that the newer members continue to grow and find their place here.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Nobear

[Raven Darkholme]

Maybe my reply sounded unhelpful to you, but I adressed why your spellcasting is so slow, because you dumped dex.

Ofc you can still play with dumped dex and beat the game with it, b ut that was not your question, was it?

As to quick switch:

As soon as you quick switch you used to be able to instantly cast another spell, idk if thats still the case in 1.06.

[Nobear]

Maybe my reply sounded unhelpful to you, but I adressed why your spellcasting is so slow, because you dumped dex.

Ofc you can still play with dumped dex and beat the game with it, b ut that was not your question, was it?

As to quick switch:

As soon as you quick switch you used to be able to instantly cast another spell, idk if thats still the case in 1.06.

 

 

Ok thank you for clarifying. Yes, I did expect dumping Dex to slow me down (obviously), but I didn't expect it to be quite as painful as it's turning out lol. And that answer about Quick Switch is exactly what I wanted to know. I still have my save from exiting Cilant Lis just before leveling to level 2, so I could take Quick Switch and test it to see if it still works like that.

 

So if it does still work the same way, if I have the option to autopause when I hit an enemy, should I be able to switch weapons the instant I gain enough focus for a power, then instantly cast that power? Or by instantly cast, do you simply mean that I will start the cast without having to wait for the recovery time from the last auto attack, and the cast itself will still take however long it takes based on my Dex score?

 

Also, did the cheese only ever work one way? In other words, if I switch weapons the instant after I cast a power, would I (if the cheese is still present) be able to instantly go into auto attack while being spared the spell recovery time, or not?

[Raven Darkholme]

I only read about it and never tried it myself.

Afaik after your hit + autopause + switch a recovery "bar" appears but instantly goes away taking no time. You still would have the casting time, which on a cipher with dumped dex is pretty bad on average already and awful on a long spell. Idk about wiz they seem to have faster casts.

I think the cheese only works one way, but if you had 3 weapon slots you probably won't need more than that.

[Killyox]

With Wizard you can generally make-do without dex due to other spells. I found Parasitic Spear + shield from elements at early levels invaluable. In general Dex will help you somewhat but if you wear Plate Armor then you can be sure as hell you will finish your spells next week  

[Nobear]

I only read about it and never tried it myself.

Afaik after your hit + autopause + switch a recovery "bar" appears but instantly goes away taking no time. You still would have the casting time, which on a cipher with dumped dex is pretty bad on average already and awful on a long spell. Idk about wiz they seem to have faster casts.

I think the cheese only works one way, but if you had 3 weapon slots you probably won't need more than that.

 

It's good to know what I'd be looking out for in testing with 1.0.6. Helpful, but your last sentence confuses me. What would I gain from an additional weapon slot? Are you implying that the recovery time shortening can only happen once per encounter per weapon set? Because I was thinking (hoping) that immediately after gaining the necessary focus from a weapon swing, I'd switch weapons and cast the power, and keep switching back and forth between two sets like this as many times as expedient for that encounter.

 

It seems I'd still benefit from different stats including higher Dex either way. What kinds of stats would you recommend for 1.0.6 for a solo melee cipher planning on eventually using the retaliation + Carow Golan mechanic?

Edited August 13, 2015 by Nobear

[Nobear]

With Wizard you can generally make-do without dex due to other spells. I found Parasitic Spear + shield from elements at early levels invaluable. In general Dex will help you somewhat but if you wear Plate Armor then you can be sure as hell you will finish your spells next week

 

You could alternately make the argument that you don't need to max Per + Res (at least not Per, in 1.0.6), due to other spells that greatly increase Deflection and other tanking stats. With 20 Dex and plate armor, I'm slow but not painfully slow like my cipher is, and overall I feel I have a much tankier and stronger character at low levels in the wizard.

 

But what stat spread and armor type would you use for a solo melee wizard on PoTD on 1.0.6?

Edited August 13, 2015 by Nobear

[Raven Darkholme]

 

I only read about it and never tried it myself.

Afaik after your hit + autopause + switch a recovery "bar" appears but instantly goes away taking no time. You still would have the casting time, which on a cipher with dumped dex is pretty bad on average already and awful on a long spell. Idk about wiz they seem to have faster casts.

I think the cheese only works one way, but if you had 3 weapon slots you probably won't need more than that.

 

 

It's good to know what I'd be looking out for in testing with 1.0.6. Helpful, but your last sentence confuses me. What would I gain from an additional weapon slot? Are you implying that the recovery time shortening can only happen once per encounter per weapon set? Because I was thinking (hoping) that immediately after gaining the necessary focus from a weapon swing, I'd switch weapons and cast the power, and keep switching back and forth between two sets like this as many times as expedient for that encounter.

 

It seems I'd still benefit from different stats including higher Dex either way. What kinds of stats would you recommend for 1.0.6 for a solo melee cipher planning on eventually using the retaliation + Carow Golan mechanic?

Seems kinda cheesy if it worked that way, you never would have recovery time, as long as you cast spells.

As I said, didn't try it myself, though.

[Nobear]

Seems kinda cheesy if it worked that way, you never would have recovery time, as long as you cast spells.

As I said, didn't try it myself, though.

 

 

Which begs the question for me: might there me a situation where quick-switching yields a DPS boost for melee weapons, and not just for guns? Say you wear plate and quick-switch between two two-handed weapons the instant you land a hit with one. I wonder if you'd do more DPS than you would by just auto attacking with one. Anyway, I know you haven't tested Quick Switch, so this is for me to test or for someone else to answer if they happen to know.

 

As for cheese, there's a wide variation to what people consider "cheesy," since that's a very subjective concept. We can see an extreme in the thread about highly restrictive personal rulesets that involve no use of anything remotely magical, as well as severe self-imposed nerfs to powerful melee classes. Personally, one thing I've considered too cheesy to ever do is use the "random" items list and rest X number of days because I know that a particular item that's supposed to be random is going to be there. I think the difference for me is that that takes me completely out of the immersion, since there is no way to justify your characters having some sort of "insider knowledge" about the matrix they live in, if you will. I could, however, justify a talent being really strong if applied in just the right way by, well, my character developing that talent through training and figuring out how to apply it in just the right way.

[alexis13]

Its -18% if you don't wear heavy armor its really nothing, the best armor is vegnitta's (adra dragon one) and its a mage robe, heavy armor is minus 50% i think thats whats really weighing you down.

 

I've dumped dex and it works fine, I think its because you are wearing plate thats really slowing you, early I wear a robe and rely more on deflection than DR though some dr is still good

 

Its gonna take you like an extra sec to cast a spell and with 19 base char created resolve you are NEVER gonna get interrupted with that omega concentration, thats not even counting items that boost resolve.

 

Though reading this...about switching grimoires, does it reset your spell casts? like do you get another 4? I never knew that, it seems like your implying that.

Edited August 14, 2015 by alexis13

[Raven Darkholme]

 

Seems kinda cheesy if it worked that way, you never would have recovery time, as long as you cast spells.

As I said, didn't try it myself, though.

 

 

 

Which begs the question for me: might there me a situation where quick-switching yields a DPS boost for melee weapons, and not just for guns? Say you wear plate and quick-switch between two two-handed weapons the instant you land a hit with one. I wonder if you'd do more DPS than you would by just auto attacking with one. Anyway, I know you haven't tested Quick Switch, so this is for me to test or for someone else to answer if they happen to know.

 

As for cheese, there's a wide variation to what people consider "cheesy," since that's a very subjective concept. We can see an extreme in the thread about highly restrictive personal rulesets that involve no use of anything remotely magical, as well as severe self-imposed nerfs to powerful melee classes. Personally, one thing I've considered too cheesy to ever do is use the "random" items list and rest X number of days because I know that a particular item that's supposed to be random is going to be there. I think the difference for me is that that takes me completely out of the immersion, since there is no way to justify your characters having some sort of "insider knowledge" about the matrix they live in, if you will. I could, however, justify a talent being really strong if applied in just the right way by, well, my character developing that talent through training and figuring out how to apply it in just the right way.

I'm not saying YOU shouldn't use it, because I think it's cheesy.

What I meant, I doubt it works that way, if you have the focus to cast 3 times in a row, not only to insta cast first two spells, but to switch back to the first weapon and instacast again.

Well as soon as you tried, please post.

[Nobear]

Its -18% if you don't wear heavy armor its really nothing, the best armor is vegnitta's (adra dragon one) and its a mage robe, heavy armor is minus 50% i think thats whats really weighing you down.

 

I've dumped dex and it works fine, I think its because you are wearing plate thats really slowing you, early I wear a robe and rely more on deflection than DR though some dr is still good

 

Its gonna take you like an extra sec to cast a spell and with 19 base char created resolve you are NEVER gonna get interrupted with that omega concentration, thats not even counting items that boost resolve.

 

Though reading this...about switching grimoires, does it reset your spell casts? like do you get another 4? I never knew that, it seems like your implying that.

 

 

I could see Vengiatta Rugia (or Coat of Ill Payment) being top choices for a melee cipher who exploits uses the Carow Golan + retaliation mechanic for focus, but what makes retaliation particularly good for a melee wizard? Is it synergy with Combusting Wounds?

 

Here is a guy advocating for Sanguine Plate due to its Frenzy spell holding, which would more than make up for the loss of speed due to it being plate. I should note, though, that he is not specifically presenting that as a solo build. The major downside I could see is that activating the Frenzy effect depends on being crit, which you are generally trying to negate with spells that boost your deflection, so perhaps I'll discover that it doesn't really go with my style after all. Have you really found on PoTD so far that you don't really need DR if you focus enough on defenses?

 

Lastly, I never meant to imply that switching grimoires would reset your available spell casts, I don't know what gave you that impression. It doesn't AFAIK. I personally don't keep multiple grimoires, I just swap individual spells if I feel the need to based on different types of fights/enemies.

[Nobear]

Well as soon as you tried, please post.

 

Well I pretty much asked for this lol, looks like there'll be some testing the next time I load up the game!

[Nobear]

Well as soon as you tried, please post.

 

After a very cursory test of Quick Switch, it does indeed seem like it'll be a DPS increase with a Dex-dumped character switching back and forth between two two-handed melee weapons as soon as each one hits. I only had one two-hander and one crossbow at the time of testing (just after Cilant Lis and hitting level 2, tested on the bandit on the way to Gilded Vale). It also made a huge difference in how soon Eyestrike started casting just after I opened at range with the crossbow and switched to the two-hander.

 

This is basically how I'd expect the talent to work, only it hadn't really sunk in until recently how awesome this could be. The recovery time removal is, after all, what delays any action performed after switching weapons, whether that action is to auto attack with the new weapon, cast a spell, drink a potion, etc. I'll keep playing from this point and update on my impressions of how this play style compares over many fights in practice.

 

Edit: I can't find this info when I'd most like it: what are the base casting times for Fast, Average and Slow spells/powers?

 

Also, do you know how I might do frame-by-frame testing like some people do? My tests, while meaningful to me, are maybe lacking the objective precision that some might like to have.

 

And ok, I will agree with you that this is cheesy, as no real person would be able to hit faster by switching between two weapons than they could by sticking to one, but I'm excited to try to exploit this use for the talent that I thought of and haven't read about elsewhere, cheesy or not .

Edited August 14, 2015 by Nobear

[Nobear]

I may have answered one of my own questions. If things still work like this really old Wiki entry states they were once planned to work, the base casting times are instant, 3 sec and 6 sec, respectively. I'd like to know, though, if the 3 and 6 sec times include recovery or not. I believe base recovery (without encumbering armor) is the same length as the cast itself, meaning the base total time for a slow spell would be either 6 sec or 12 sec, depending. Big difference there.

 

In any case, if I focus on Fast spells (and maybe a few Average if they're really good), I may yet find a way to almost completely eliminate the pain of dumped Dex. Stay tuned!

 

Update: I have been testing Quick Switch back and forth between two two-handed melee weapons, and it does consistently work to increase DPS by (from appearances) completely eliminating recovery from each weapon every time, so that each hits as fast as it can swing. What it does not do is eliminate recovery after you've cast a spell and want to go back into melee, so there is still that delay after casting Mental Binding or something before I can start swinging again and really take advantage of it. If Mental Binding hits instead of grazes, it still does give me enough time to get in 2-3 swings with the enemy paralyzed though.

 

Overall, it seems like a good way to maximize focus gain before you have access to retaliation items, as well as to cast those powers as soon as you have enough focus for them. You do lose deflection vs, say, dual wielding hatchets. The verdict is still out on whether this will be a viable play style in the long run.

 

I should note a caveat that I was mistaken and there is no such autopause option to pause when you hit an enemy, only for when an enemy hits you, so it does require a lot of micromanagement and watching out for every time you take a swing. I definitely wouldn't bother doing this if I weren't soloing.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Nobear