Why dump Dex? Why dump any stats at all?

[Adino]

So, this is part legitimate question and part rant. I just bought the game today and I'm trying to understand the character build concepts people are using. There aren't a lot of build calculators for the game and the wiki is pretty out of date or just lacking explanitory content, so it's difficult to gather ANY of the information I need without doing extensive testing on my own, which defeats the purpose of visiting the wiki at all if I have to level each class and record the abilities, attributes, etc and what their effects are with varying stats/items.

 

So, my initial question is simple: why are people dumping certain stats in this game? Why dump Dex and Int on a Paladin, for instance.

 

(Before you answer, I know about how and why to use min/max character builds. This isn't my first RPG I've ever played and I'm normally very good at them. No need to explain the min/max concept. Of course, I feel most people misuse the term "min/max," in general, as people simply attribute min/maxing a build in order to explain how the powerful builds are so powerful, when the build is just based around using more powerful abilities and doesn't really minimize any important/needed stats. ie there is no real trade-off.)

 

I get the feeling things aren't being min/maxed to good effect in this game. That's why I'm here, asking experienced players - so that I can understand a little more quickly. I can kind of understand Int because Paladins have a lot of targeted abilities that last for indefinite periods of time, not many AOEs (Except Auras), or abilities that have a timer of X seconds.  If people are min/maxing and using Dex as a dump stat, what are they maxing with those points? It seems to me that if you are dumping Dex on a melee character, you're basically saying the character is going to do little-to-no damage. If that's true, why put points in Might? If a Paladin has 18 Might and 3 Dex, all I can see is better Lay on Hands and better Fortitude defense. However, if Lay on Hands is as limited in usefullness as people say, then wouldn't you be better served dumping not only Dex, but Might and Int as well? I mean, with no damage-dealing ability to start with, swinging slower isn't helping them hold aggro anyway, so why bother with Might if aggro isn't determined by damage? Then you could pump Con, Perception, and Resolve to max Deflection, HP, and Endurance, while counter-balancing the losses in Fort, Reflex, and Will? (You'd actually have small bonuses in all 3.) Wouldn't that make the "uber" tank that is basically useless at anything but tanking? (Which seems to be the consistent comment on the forums about Paladins - useless except as tanks.)

 

Basically, if you use Dex as a dump stat, your Reflex becomes garbage AND you do everything slower. (Casting, Attacking, etc) So, people are pumping 8 points (or so) into Perception, which counters the HUGE negative that 3 Dex gives to Reflex, and in return they gain 24 Interrupt and 8 Deflection. Nevermind the aggro mechanic in this game, just explain why adding 8 points to Perception to gain 8 Deflection actually matters when I'm seeing Deflection numbers like 140, 160, 170, etc on the forums? Does 8 Deflection from Perception really matter that much? (People downplay the usefullnes of Interrupt, claiming items do it better, so that makes this concept even less viable.)

 

Why wouldn't you you just leave Con, Int, Per, and Res at 10, then pump Mig and Dex as high as you can? You'd do much more damage because you'd swing faster and you could use any abilities with a timer faster, not to mention the benefits to Lay on Hands and the actual weapon damage you deal. Your Fort and Reflex would be really high and you wouldn't suffer any penalties to Will. All you'd really lose is 8 Deflection, or so. (Since it seems people aren't maxing Perception AND Resolve, at the same time anyway. If you are, please lay out your starting Attibutes for me - I would love to see them.)

 

I mean, if you had 162 Deflection instead of 170, would that even matter? Let's say you added 8 to Mig (18) and 7 to Dex (17) at creation. You'd gain roughly 16 Fort and 14 Reflex, not to mention you'd do considerably more damage because you'd be swinging/casting 42% faster. (The difference in swing speed going from 3 Dex to 17.) All of which which seems like a good trade for 8 Deflection and +2 Reflex/Fort/Will.

 

The only thing I can see that would counter my argument is the speed reduction on Armors. You gain 42% and you lose 40%. It's still better than losing 82%. And, you can give up 2 base DR to use Leather and lose only 20% speed, if you're trying to focus more on increasing damage instead of making a solid tank build.

 

So, why are people dumping Dex, in particular? Why are people making this trade? If anything, why not Dump Intel to 3 and pump those 7 points in Resolve to counter the loss in Will, but still gain 7 Deflection and 21 Concentration? You're Auras wouldnt' effect other party members, but the other NPCs are there to buff the TANK or YOU. Have the strongest tank you can get and let an off-tank provide party auras if you need them.

 

Or, am I missing something?

[Adino]

Oh, I thought I'd point out that MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependancy) isn't really an issue here. Fighters need all the same abilities - in fact, they have more AOE abilities. Barbarians Need Dex, Mig, and Int for damage too. Not to mention, they're high-HP glass cannons without Con, Res, and Per. (So, not quite glass, but not much better. Especially since they're melee.)

 

Wizards need Mig, Dex, and Int for damage too, but they have really low HP. I guess you want to spend all you time buffing before each fight, killing the enemies with additional spells and/or scrolls, and then camping. (Rinse, Repeat...) Virtually any Caster is in the same boat as the Wizard.

 

The only possible exception I've read about is the Chanter, but I don't know how great that class is for a Player's character. Not to mention, the class seems like it involves area of effect and duration, which indicates Int is required as well. (At least, to the casual observer.) Maybe some of the class's abilities don't have the same prereqs as other classes, like Mig for the strength of Chants or Int for the Area of Effect? Anyway, looking for well-reasoned response. Thanks in advance.

[Nobear]

Hello and welcome. You are thinking things out and have some good ideas.

 

My paladin tank build (I should say my most recent, since I keep starting over to optimize ) is as follows: 10/14/4/18/14/18.

 

I do max both Per and Res, because they offer the biggest bang for your buck in terms of defensive stats (deflection and another defense). I actually tried minimizing Con on a paladin tank based on some feedback I'd read, and it was workable but I didn't like it. This person preferred 20 Int for the long-lasting buffs. Well, I don't care to prioritize stretching buff duration to the absolute max, if it's going to sacrifice my tanking ability. Besides, on the latest Mac GoG build (don't know if this applies to any other builds), there is currently a bug where paladin auras grow ridiculously large before you even hit level 4, enough to cover any formation without needing to focus on Int. I have Zealous Focus. When the bug gets fixed, I will be able to easily reach 20 Int with an item and a resting bonus, which is needed to cover my back row without the bug.

 

Str is better than Dex for a tanking paladin IMHO because of the per-encounter abilities it affects. In particular, Flames of Devotion, and most importantly for me, the Moon Godlike power Silver Tide. It's widely considered the best tanking ability to have, as its range is huge and it can potentially heal everyone multiple times in a single tough fight. Those who prefer the more offensive Fire Godlike and Darkozzi retaliation ability are also benefitted by Str and not Dex. Since you have 6 party members, you really don't need to worry about the DPS of your tanks if you've got 4 solid DPSers. If you do, that's totally personal preference and optional, but I like my tanks to be rocks and my DPSers handle the rest.

 

Edit: There are also the conversation options to consider. Only the attributes and skills of your main character affect the options available in conversations. I've read that Res and Int are the most common conversation checks for attributes, and Lore is the most common for skills. So conversations plus aura range and duration considerations make Int something I wouldn't want to dump, but have what I'd consider "just enough" of.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Nobear

[manageri]

There is no threat mechanic in the game, aggro is entirely AI based, which most of the time means the enemy will charge the nearest guy. A tank only has to stand there getting smacked around. A tank will do crap damage anyway so pumping dex to improve that from crap to crap+1 isn't worth it. Same thing with might in terms of damage, but that increases healing which makes it a bit more useful.

 

The thing you perhaps are missing about deflection vs accuracy is that both keep on scaling. The fact you may reach numbers like the 170 you mentioned aren't as important as the relative differences. In other words, it doesn't matter if your end game deflection is 10, 200, or 1000 - an 8 point difference is always as good because the accuracy of the enemies will grow at an equal pace (kinda/not really, but it could). Pumping both your deflection stats from 10 to 18 means 16 extra, which is a pretty big deal in damage mitigation. You should consult the in game journal for a full explanation on hit mechanics if some of that's unclear. Most enemies are after all melee types so deflection is the most important defense for a tank.

[Adino]

"... the Moon Godlike power Silver Tide. It's widely considered the best tanking ability to have, as its range is huge and it can potentially heal everyone multiple times in a single tough fight. "

 

 

First, thank you for your constructive response.

 

I have found I truly enjoy the Silver Tide ability. However, I realized that it prevents me from using headgear because the godlike races cannot use items in that slot. I have two questions about that ability, if you can and don't mind answering: 1. Does Silver Tide scale with level or anything other than increasing Might? 2. What kind of stats would I be missing out on in the end-game from not using helms?

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited June 22, 2015 by Adino

[Nobear]

1) Silver Tide does scale with level (as well as Might) which is awesome. Even for a tank, I didn't dump Might largely because of Silver Tide (and my Fortitude would suck too).

 

2) Headgear never gives more than 2 to one stat and 1 to another. I'd so much rather have Silver Tide. All your other allies can wear helms, so it's not like you're missing out on experiencing a type of loot.

 

Now a question of my own: How do you create spoiler tags?

 

I don't know if the Wiki has all the helms, but if you search for headgear you can get a decent idea.

[Adino]

The thing you perhaps are missing about deflection vs accuracy is that both keep on scaling. The fact you may reach numbers like the 170 you mentioned aren't as important as the relative differences.

 

 

Thank you for your response.

 

Maybe you can dispute other things I've read on the forums. According to what I've read, the highest accuracy monster in the game is a dragon with like 115 or so. (At the hardest difficulty settings, PoD or w/e. If it's higher, then whatever that number may be.) If that's true, then couldn't I base those relative differences off that number? And, at that point, wouldn't maximum required Deflection be a static number that I could simply calculate and hit, but not exceed without new gear from new expansions or from party buffs? That way, I'd have maximum miss chance against anything currently in game, without buffs or the new gear that will come in new expansions.

 

Wouldn't that eliminate the need to worry over 8 Deflection? (That's a large part of what I was basing my question on.)

[Adino]

Nobear,

 

Thanks again. I wish I knew how to do spoiler tags.

 

To follow up, if helms can give +2 and +1 to a couple of stats, that could potentially be +6% dmg, +6% healing, +4 Fort, +3% att speed, +3% casting speed, and +2 Reflex. That's a lot to give up. I know you said it scale with level. I guess the question is now, does it scale well? At 75% health, it heals my guys with 12-14 Con to almost full health. Will I see similar results as I increase Constitution and level, or will it become less effective, relatively?

[Cantousent]

Nobear,

 

Thanks again. I wish I knew how to do spoiler tags.

 

Adino, you can put in spoiler tags by using the word 'spoiler' in brackets [ no spaces spoiler ] then, when you want to close the spoiler tag, just put /spoiler in the brackets [ / spoiler ]

 

EDIT: 

and that's how you can hide certain parts of the text

while letting other parts remain seen.

[manageri]

According to what I've read, the highest accuracy monster in the game is a dragon with like 115 or so. (At the hardest difficulty settings, PoD or w/e. If it's higher, then whatever that number may be.) If that's true, then couldn't I base those relative differences off that number? And, at that point, wouldn't maximum required Deflection be a static number that I could simply calculate and hit, but not exceed without new gear from new expansions or from party buffs? That way, I'd have maximum miss chance against anything currently in game, without buffs or the new gear that will come in new expansions.

 

Wouldn't that eliminate the need to worry over 8 Deflection? (That's a large part of what I was basing my question on.)

 

Yes, it's theoretically possible to have such a big difference between accuracy and deflection that nothing can hit you, but I really doubt that's doable except temporarily with heavy buffing and debuffing, and even then not against the most badass enemies. Admittedly that's based on just my experiences and not actual math etc. Lacking 8 deflection is probably not going to make anything extremely more difficult, but as far as tanks go, I really don't see anything provided by other stats as being worth sacrificing it.

 

if helms can give +2 and +1 to a couple of stats, that could potentially be +6% dmg, +6% healing, +4 Fort, +3% att speed, +3% casting speed, and +2 Reflex. That's a lot to give up.

 

 

Keep in mind that there are other items with stat bonuses (which won't stack), and you can enchant any chest armor to provide a bonus to any single stat (either a +1 or +2) of your choosing. Therefore you can at least count on not having to give up a +2 to your most important stat because you chose godlike.

[Nobear]

Nobear,

 

Thanks again. I wish I knew how to do spoiler tags.

 

To follow up, if helms can give +2 and +1 to a couple of stats, that could potentially be +6% dmg, +6% healing, +4 Fort, +3% att speed, +3% casting speed, and +2 Reflex. That's a lot to give up. I know you said it scale with level. I guess the question is now, does it scale well? At 75% health, it heals my guys with 12-14 Con to almost full health. Will I see similar results as I increase Constitution and level, or will it become less effective, relatively?

 

 

Those stats are not going to be all one one helm, it's just 2 + 1. Look here:

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Headgear

 

 

Thanks Cantousent, I was the one asking for that.

 

Also, what manageri said: the same bonus from different items won't stack, you have a few item slots, and you can enchant chest. You can choose if you want an item to boost a stat  (sometimes two stats) or something else (a defense, grant a spell or ability, etc.) The only item slots that are considered separately and stack are weapon and shield, which you can also enchant but not with stats.

 

I don't know the max level stats for Silver Tide, as I've restarted the game many times to optimize and still haven't gotten very far past Act 1. Speaking of which, gonna play a bit now before bed haha! Let this be the last time I remake my character until I beat the game.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Nobear

[Adino]

"Keep in mind that there are other items with stat bonuses (which won't stack), and you can enchant any chest armor to provide a bonus to any single stat (either a +1 or +2) of your choosing. Therefore you can at least count on not having to give up a +2 to your most important stat because you chose godlike."

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to write again. I got stuck at 5 posts due to a forum restrictuion, but I can now respond. (First day on forums....)

 

So, you're essentially saying that these bonuses to stats will not stack with other enchants, and I won't need the stats from the helm?

 

Put another way, are you saying that with the The Pilgrim's Lasting Vigil (it gives +1 Resolve and +1 Perception), for example, I won't need those bonuses later on because I'll get other items with as good or better bonuses to those stats and it won't stack with the helm anyway? Or, are you just saying that I won't have to give up getting a bonus to my favorite stat because I don't have it on my helm and I can get that bonus to that stat elsewhere? (If it's the second option, I'd really like those stat bonuses on that helm. That is, assuming Resolve and Perception are all that, which is kind of the main point of this thread anyway. If 2 Deflection from those stats on that helm isn't worth it, it validates my original question.)

 

So, would the +1 Resolve and +1 Perception matter in the end-game, PoD difficulty, or are these bonuses so low (Assuming the bonuses don't stack) that the helm isn't worth getting beecause other items will give better bonuses to those stats and the bonuses won't stack?

 

PS: the link Nobear provided to the Helms doesn't have anything spectactular and "The Pilgrim's Lasting Vigil" seems to be the best. But, it is something you get in the first major town before you're even level 4. Is the best defensive headgear item in the game obtained at lvl 3? I certainly hope I'm not wearing the same gear when I hit level 10.

 

PS #2: I just found out the maximum level is 12. I've hit level 5 on a couple characters already (On my first day owning the game), just doing the starter quests and getting my keep. Is the scope of the game really only 7 levels beyond that? (Or, less? Seems not everyone would hit 12, from what I'm now reading.)

Edited June 22, 2015 by Adino

[Nobear]

I have not sat and figured out whether you can get all the stat bonuses in endgame without the helm slot. My guess (and it's only a guess) is that a non Godlike character can always have some small stat advantage with the right selection of gear. I'm not saying that such a stat advantage is worthless. I'm saying that 2-3 points of any stat can't compare with Silver Tide for a tank. The whole point of min-maxing is to make your character optimal, which includes abilities and not just stats.

 

Feel free to disagree, but I think giving up the helm slot is a very small price to pay for such a powerful passive ability that triggers exactly when you need it. BTW it's 22 Endurance at level 5, and my tank has 15 Con and 113 Endurance, but keep in mind it's even a much larger portion of the health pool of the back row should they need it.

 

And yes it's only 12 levels, but it takes much more XP to gain each subsequent level. No spoilers please, but I'm going to take a guess that Act 1 is probably less than 1/3 of the whole game.

[Adino]

My paladin tank build (I should say my most recent, since I keep starting over to optimize ) is as follows: 10/14/4/18/14/18.

 

Thanks again for responding. I see a new post from you already. It's great to have someone to talk it through with. So, thinking about your responses, and assuming those stats are in order as they are listed in the game menu, I've had some thoughts and wanted to see what you thought about the concepts I've listed below.

 

1. You are minimizing Dex and have only 10 Might, so you are essentially doing a variation of the "uber tank" stat line that I was talking about in my original thread. You could have something like 8 Might, 18 Con, 8 Dex, 18 Perception, 8 Intel, and 18 Resolve. This would give you max Endurance, HP, Deflection, and Fort/Reflex/Will - which is pretty much the best and most balanced defensive tank you can make, especially on a Paladin. You can pump Intel with enchants later if need be because, other than dialog options, Intel isn't all that useful for Paladins from what I can see. Your current set up has low Reflex, as opposed to Will or Fort, and you have really high Will saves. Are you doing that because It's optimal or for dialog options or something else?

 

2.This doesn't seem like a powerful character build. If you're using a tank with such bad damage stats, why not just hire an NPC moon godlike and stat it out this way and play a higher damage build or a different class altogether, like a Cipher or something that uses Intel and Lore more effectively and doesn't need as much Defensive stats? I get playing a Paladin for the early-game solo ability, but with only 10 Might, it seems like you're not doing much of anything but avoiding a little bit more damage by getting slightly higher defenses.

 

3. It seems like your Might is really low for a Paladin. If you're using a moon godlike for the healing, wouldn't having only 10 Might be kind of detrimental to your cause? Playing a Paladin, wouldn't having 10 Might hurt your self-healing from the class? And, doesn't Might have a lot of Dialog options too?

 

4. Given your stated reason for using the Moon-godlike race, having a high-Might /low-Intellect Paladin party NPC should be prefereable to playing a low-Might Paladin as a main character. If you only have 10 Might so that you can pump Intel for dialog, why not just make an intel-based character and get an NPC with 18 Might, 17 Constitution, and 3 Intellect so that the character can heal for more effectively and having more HP/Endurance? (Or, just go 18 Mig and 6 Intel so as not to over-nerf the AOE effect of Silver Tide and not take quite as big a negative to Will?)

 

5. A Paladin that has low or no healing isn't any better than a Fighter. Have you compared the benefits of using a simlar build on a moon-godlike Fighter, since Fighters don't have Lay on Hands and can essentially ignore damage output the same as a Paladin, but they don't have class-based healing abilities that are nerfed by having low Might? Is it just that Paladins get the best/highest defensive buffs in the game? (If so, why even make a fighter? They aren't high damage either and they can't heal. And, with 10 Might and 4 Dex, nothing will do decent damage, anyway. So, it would be pure tanking stats and all that should matter are class bonuses to defensive stats at that point.) If a Paladin is superior defensively, the Paladin has self-healing, they both do low damage, and a Paladin holds aggro and fulfills the tank role just the same, why does the Fighter class even exist? If the Fighter can be better defensively if it ignores offense entirely, Fighter would be a superior choice. So, which is the better pure tank when it has low Might? It seems Fighters can engage more targets via their abilities, so they may be better tanks.

 

6. You haven't beaten the game yet, so I'm worried this might be a case of the blind leading the blind. I was hoping for definitive information, but so far we're just theorycrafting with eachtoher. That's perfectly fine and fun and all, but I was really hoping for more authoritative answers when i made this post originally. Thank you all the same for your responses as I always enjoy learning other's perspectives.

 

7. We aren't using a lot of real numbers from in-game items, so this is all speculative and not definitive. For example, you haven't cited what items you have found to be optimal, what dialog options you need intel for, or what minimum Defensive values are needed for an end-game tank. We've only spoken generally about the need for increasing Deflection as enemies get higher Accuracy and that you read that intel has the most dialog options. But, what I'm actually hoping for is a real explanation of what end-game items I should be planning to use and what the optimal defensive stats are to do the job of tanking. (Whether it's by an NPC in my party or my character.)

 

8. I can't tell if you're min/maxing for good purpose or just feel that Deflection is important for tanks. Having 10 Might on a Moon-godlike Paladin brings into question whether you're really min/maxing or just trying to get better defenses and dialog options and this is the best stat line for those two things, based on how you want to handle the dialog and the fact you're playing a tank. If you're using an average Might score, you aren't minimizing it or maximizing it, so it's like you're luke-warm on healing. You could have more Con and get better Endurance/HP to tank better if you aren't worried about Might. After all, why does a tank have to heal itself when there are Priests and Druids? If you are worried about might to get the healing abilities because of how beneficial they are, why not max it and lose a some intel and/or Con, since you aren't maxing either of those anyway, which indicates being somewhat lukewarn on them? (And, Con has no benefit to dialog, from what I can tell.) I mean, if you wan to be decent at everything, You can get 15+2+1=18 points distriuted among the 6 stats evenly. (+3 to all, so 13.) That way you have better healing, you don't take large negatives to Reflex, you can do a little better damage which helps the party in other ways, and you'll get lots of dialog options. You know, come to think of it, I haven't seen an option that says, Required: "Intel X" or "Resolve X." Do we know what attributes we ACTUALLY NEED for dialog options? Can anyone confirm what is needed?

 

IN CONCLUSION: I mean, if you're really trying to min/max for tanking, but you don't need a helm and the healing/damage just isn't important enough to put points in Might, as you're doing now, be a Fire-godlike and go 8/18/8/18/8/18. That will give you the best possible tanking stats (Deflection, Reflex/Will/Fort, HP, Endurance, and DR) and you're only sacrificing 2 might and any Intel dialog options. Moreover, if you need Intel, you can buff it later with Items OR just have an NPC tank for you and you can play a class that gains real benefit from Intellect and avoid putting so many points in Con, Per, and Res. You could make a Cipher with 18/8/18/8/18/8 - literally the opposite of the tank's build, which will give tons of Dialog options, as I've seen many Dex and Might Dialog options, but I can't think of any Perception or Resolve dialog options, at least in so far as I've played. You can min/max a character, but not benefit from it at all, if you minimize the wrong stats and max others that aren't needed. I'm just trying to find out which stats, if any, can be minimized and why.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Adino

[MadDemiurg]

Why dump DEX? - DEX mostly influences dps (also buff speed, but in latest patch paladin buffs are very fast anyway) and compared to other party members paladin will never be a good damage dealer, so it's better to focus on what you're good at.

 

Why not dump MIG over DEX? As paladins do not have many damage bonuses optimal dps will be somewhere at MIG = DEX probably (for classes with a lot of damage bonuses DEX is more important). However, we're not optimizing dps, and MIG gives fortitude, which is more important, since we get a big reflex boost from weapon & shield style as a tank. MIG also influences stuff like Lay of Hands and some racials like Silver Tide and Battleforged.

 

If you're soloing you want to do damage, so you don't dump DEX entirely.

 

Why dump INT? This is actually a more tough call in a party as it influences many good abilities like exhortations (liberating, reinforcing, hastening, reviving to some extent) and Lay of Hands. Also aura range. You dump INT if you focus on being a pure tank and forgo support abilities in favor of abilities that do not depend on INT like Righteous Soul. Dumping INT allows to get better all around tanking stats. Because of Righteous Soul, will is probably the least important save for a paladin.

 

If I recall correctly, optimal paladin for tanking Adra Dragon was smth like 15/18/5/21/3/15. If you go for identical base will/ref/fort you'll end up with much higher ref because of shield. Additionally, as already mentioned, will is less important if you have Righteous Soul. Overall fort > ref > will for tank paladin.

Edited June 22, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Adino]

Feel free to disagree, but I think giving up the helm slot is a very small price to pay for such a powerful passive ability that triggers exactly when you need it.

 

Oh, I don't. I made a moon-godlike Pally for that ability as well. I just wondered if I was wasting my time with it because I honestly didn't know.

[Adino]

Why not dump MIG over DEX?

 

I never actually asked that. I was asking why not dump both if you're really worried about tanking stats and not about Damage or heals from Lay on hands. (I've seen many forum posts and article on websites bemoaning how useless LoH is.)

 

 

"Why dump INT? This is actually a more tough call in a party as it influences many good abilities like exhortations (liberating, reinforcing, hastening, reviving to some extent) and Lay of Hands."

 

I tested this. With 19 Mig and 8 Int, LoH does 79 healing over 4.5 secs. With 19 mig and 18 Int, it does 108 over 7 secs. Basically, it seems to cause the same amount of regeneration per unit of time over a longer period of time, resulting in more total healing at the same rate per unit of time. Considering how people badmouth LoH and the fact I'll have a healer or two in the party, should I really care about this difference and can I easily compensate for it with gear and/or a Priest/Druid?

 

And, should I really care about the duration on Exhortations, if I'm tanking? I mean, Reviving stil revives and those others are party buffs, not tanking abilities. (It sounds like they aren't essential, from what you're saying.)

Edited June 22, 2015 by Adino

[Adino]

So, i'm thinking of a few builds that are meant to be my main character. Constructive thoughts are appreciated. They look like this:

 

1. Moon-godlike Paladin

19/13/19/10/4/13

Kind Wayfarers

 

This provides: +27% Dmg/Heals, +27% Att/Cast speed, +9% Endurance/HP, +24 Fort, +18 Reflex, -6 Will, and +3 Deflection.

 

What I'm thinking: Helm apparently doesn't matter and the heals with this are so nice. Getting +3 Deflection, vs +8 or +16, won't matter in the end due to many passive Paladin bonuses and items that add significant amounts of Deflection. Low Will is partially mitigated by Righteous Soul and I plan to get +Int items/enchants and +Will items to improve my Will Defense significantly and help any minor benefits to increased Duration and Area of Effect, but these are not enough of a priority for me to stack them early. Hence, why Int is a dump stat at creation. These increases in Int will help my kind wayfarers buffs to effect my allies, but I'm thinking it would only be the 2 or 3 closest melee that would typically benefit anyway, so i'm not very concerned about the AOE for the Kind Wayfarers heals.

 

Alternatives:

1. Increase Int to 10 by lowering Con to 10 and Dex to 16, which results in 19/10/16/10/10/13.

This provides: +27% Dmg/Heals, +19% Att/Cast speed, +0% Endurance/HP, +18 Fort, +12 Reflex, +6 Will, and +3 Deflection.

Benefits over original: Better AOEs, duration on buffs, LoH, and no weakness to Will attacks. Losing some dmg due to attack speed.

2. Decrease Dex to 10, keep Int at 4, Increase Con, Per, and Res to 15 each, which Results in 19/15/10/15/4/15.

This provides: +27% Dmg/Heals, +0% Att/Cast speed, +15% Endurance/HP, +28 Fort, +10 Reflex, -2 Will, and +10 Deflection.

Benefits over original: More Endurance/HP, incredible Fort saves, and Better Deflection. Losing significant dmg due to +0% attack speed.

 

My analysis:

+7 Deflection isn't worth worrying about. Having Ridiculously high Fort and Reflex will benefit me more than low Will can hurt me. Being able to deal some damage means that I can be effective, even with shades and other enemies teleporting to my back row and preventing them from doing good dmg or just killing them outright, despite my best efforts. It will also increase overall party DPS. I know people downplay Paladin DPS, but they truthfully don't try. Aside from AoE dmg or a constant attack dmg buff, like a Cipher, a Paladin can do some damage. And, if I'm not dying because of huge defensive benefits, that makes it that much easier to plow content, especially in a primarily Melee party. (I know... melee is so gimp, but WHAT IF there was so much AoE healing going on amongst the party and all of them had monster defensive capabilities? Might take longer, but the job would be get done, with less "Oops! Time to reload!")

 

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I've also considered a Cipher or Barbarian with something like 18/8/18/8/18/8.

 

Barb: I know Carnage does AOE dmg, but is it really significant and does it benefit that much from Intellect? Can I steal from Intellect to add more Might and Dexterity? Being in Melee, without a shield, do I need Deflection from Res/Per?

Cipher: Can it be tough enough with those stats, or does it need really more Deflection? How much does AOE/duration buff from Intel help the Cipher? Can I cheat a little bit there to boost Might or Dex?

Edited June 22, 2015 by Adino

[Adino]

"... optimal paladin for tanking Adra Dragon was smth like 15/18/5/21/3/15..."

 

15/18/5/21/3/15

So, that gives: +15% dmg/heal, +24% Endur/HP, -15% Att/cast spd, +16 Deflect, +26 Fort, +12 Ref, and -4 Will.

It requires an Orlan race, I think.

 

Compare that to:

19/13/19/10/4/13

This provides: +27% Dmg/Heals, +9% Endurance/HP, +27% Att/Cast speed, +3 Deflection, +24 Fort, +18 Reflex, and -6 Will.

It's a Moon-godlike.

 

Over allcomparison:

1. Fort/Ref/Will are a wash. (I might prefer the higher Reflex.)

2. My build allows for MORE damage to be done if soloing. (Or, just to get more dmg)

3. My build allows MORE healing, including Silver Tide and much larger LoH.

4. My build has LESS HP/Endur. (I counter this with the fact that Priests and Wizards have solo-tanked that thing and I self-heal considerably more with my build than this alternative.)

5. My build has LESS Deflect. ( I counter by considering party buffs and gear's effect on Deflection, which should still allow for over 155 Deflection, based on what I've read with crazy unbuffed numbers like over 170.)

 

Alternatively, I could use:

19/15/10/15/4/15.

This provides: +27% Dmg/Heals, +0% Att/Cast speed, +15% Endurance/HP, +28 Fort, +10 Reflex, -2 Will, and +10 Deflection.

Still better DPS, Fort/Ref/Will are a wash, the difference in deflection/Endur/HP is minimal, and I still heal WAY more.

 

The problem with me comparing these numbers is that I can't/haven't tested how much Deflection I could actually get. I guess I'll have to use the Mod program to test it.

 

 

Once you've gotten enough Deflection, Fort, Reflex, and Will, does is matter if you trade off a little HP/Endur for more DPS and healing? The question still remains, what is enough Deflection, Fort, Reflex, and Will?

[MadDemiurg]

Yeah, LoH heal rate is the same, Int changes overall duration and thus total heal as expected. LoH is actually quite strong with 2 uses in 1.06, so making it stronger is not a bad thing.

 

As for INT and exhortations - as I said, depends on the kind of paladin you're making. If you want to tank and nothing else you don't need INT and you don't pick exhortations. However, 2 x +10 accuracy with Darcozzi's Inspiring Liberation and 2 x +25 deflection with reinforcing exhortation each encounter is quite strong and you can throw your exhortations around while tanking anyway. Boosting your party to CC better, deal more damage and take less damage is good. Your choice.

 

Barb/Cipher i won't say anything about as its a whole new topic.

 

As for how much saves you need - depends on the enemy you're facing. To comfortably tank Adra Dragon for instance, you need 170+ deflection, reflex and fort. This doesn't make you unhitable, but guarantees only grazes. To be untouchable you need 205+, which is only realistic with some strong party buffs, but in practice 170+ is good enough. For weaker enemies you obviously don't need as much, although I'd say 150 is still a good mark to hit as many enemies have ~100 accuracy.

 

And as I already mentioned, Righteous soul reduces the efficiency of some of the more nasty will based attacks, so will save is not as critical for paladin.

Edited June 22, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Adino]

MadDemiurg,

 

Thanks for the info. You're confident about those numbers? 170 for Adra guarantees grazes and 150 is soild for everything else?

 

Do you know the calculation for defense to counter accuracy? Like, if an enemy has X Accuracy, you need Y Defense to ensure only grazes and Z to be unhittable. If you do, please share. If not, thanks for the info you've already given.

[Elerond]

MadDemiurg,

 

Thanks for the info. You're confident about those numbers? 170 for Adra guarantees grazes and 150 is soild for everything else?

 

Do you know the calculation for defense to counter accuracy? Like, if an enemy has X Accuracy, you need Y Defense to ensure only grazes and Z to be unhittable. If you do, please share. If not, thanks for the info you've already given.

 

Attack roll is Acc + D100 - Def

 

Attack roll result

101+ is critical hit

51+ is hit

16+ is graze

15 or lower is miss

 

So if your your character defense is 50 points higher than attacker's accuracy then attacker can only do grazes or misses against you, if your defense is 85 points higher than attacker's accuracy then attacker will always miss.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Elerond

[MadDemiurg]

I'm confident with 170 vs Adra, 150 is a ballpark estimate for some of the higher level enemies.

 

Attack resolution.

[Luckmann]

Why dump stats? Becuase you're not getting any meaningful use out of them, naturally.

 

Now, in general, overall, in PoE, you usually don't want to dump Attributes below 10.

 

But there are definitely cases when you do. For example, any dedicated tank can just up and forget about Dexterity, because your attack speed is going to be abysmal either way. The same largely goes for Resolve for dedicated (ranged, obviously) DPS.

[Nobear]

 

My paladin tank build (I should say my most recent, since I keep starting over to optimize ) is as follows: 10/14/4/18/14/18.

 

Thanks again for responding. I see a new post from you already. It's great to have someone to talk it through with. So, thinking about your responses, and assuming those stats are in order as they are listed in the game menu, I've had some thoughts and wanted to see what you thought about the concepts I've listed below.

 

First off, dialogue checks range from 11 to 19 points in an attribute. You can see their numbers by turning on the appropriate game option. There's one option to show the values, and another to show options you don't meet the requirements for. I have these options off, because I want an immersive experience and it feels a little like cheating for me, but feel free to turn them on if it doesn't bother you.

 

1. As I've stated, I have 14 Int not just because of dialogue checks, or to have decent buff durations, but because (not considering the current bug in the Mac GoG 1.0.6 hotfix which makes paladin auras huge), 20 Int is the exact breaking point needed to cover my entire back row with accuracy in my custom formation. Adding all these benefits together makes 14 base Int worthwhile to me. I can get 20 Int starting in early Act 2 with one item and a resting bonus.

 

2. Choosing a paladin (or priest) for your main has a significant advantage: they each get bonuses to one ability based on your reputations that you get from dialogue choices, and this only applies if it's your main character. For paladins, it's Faith and Conviction. If your reputations align with those preferred and discouraged by your order, you can gain up to 6 Deflection and 12 to the other defenses over what you'd have if the paladin wasn't your main.

 

Soloing early game has never been a concern of mine, because you only run into one (easy) enemy solo if you head straight to Gilded Vale where you pick up two companions and can hire adventurers, and you could avoid this enemy too if you really wanted to.

 

Also, as I've noted, I consider that I make good use of the Int I have assigned, and why would I not make good use of Lore? In fact, Lore is probably best on tanks, since you are not giving up much damage to use a scroll and can still absorb hits, and some of the most powerful spells in scrolls are things like Fan of Flames that have friendly fire and cast in a cone or a line in front of you, so a tank is most likely to be positioned optimally for this without extra running around and danger.

 

3 and 4. Since I value having good bang for my buck in defenses so have pretty much maxed Per and Res, and since I consider Con to be the next best tank stat, and since I value 14 Int as I've explained above, that leaves either Might or Dex to dump, and I definitely want to NOT dump the one that affects my Silver Tide. Just because there's a stat I haven't maxed doesn't mean I'm horrible with it. The base Silver Tide values are high enough that it's the compromise that makes most sense to make my character optimal in the well-rounded way that I envision her. You could say that she has a major in tanking and a minor in support. Arguing about whether you call that min-maxed I think is splitting hairs. I've maxed some stats, dumped one, and achieved what I consider optimal for myself, taking into account my whole party. You realize a party of 6 is more than the sum of its parts, it is important to consider their synergy as well, and it makes a significant difference whether everyone gets the paladin's aura or not.

 

5. Each class has its own advantages, and part of the fun of the game is having a wide array of classes with different strengths and flavor. I don't think you could name a clear winner over all situations in the game between Fighter and Paladin. My answer to this? Have one of each. Done. They don't have to be at odds with each other. Fighter can engage more enemies and can knock an enemy prone twice per encounter. Though his prone is only single target, it can be very useful in emergencies such as when an enemy is about to take off to hit your back row. The Cipher's Mental Binding relies on Focus, and spells take time to cast. All of the above are useful depending on the situation, sometimes all of them within the same encounter. Since Fighter can engage more enemies, I usually have him tank more. My guess is Paladin will probably be the hardier tank against small numbers of hard hitters endgame, partly because of Faith and Conviction. Even if there's a clear difference, my Fighter will still shine with large swarms which are very common on PoTD.

 

6 through 8. Look, step back a moment and realize we are talking about a game that people are beating solo on the hardest difficulty. If you don't trust my advice just because I haven't beaten the game yet, I won't give any more. But if the game is beatable solo on PoTD, then there is clearly leeway to have differences of opinion. Want your tank to give up defensive stats so he can hit slightly harder, even though the DPSers will get more mileage from the same % DPS increase, and your tanks might die in more cases so you have to reload more often? Be my guest. It'll still be possible to beat the game. But did you come to these forums for advice, or to prove you can min-max better than more experienced players?

 

Your ideas are yours, and that should mean something. This game is easy and flexible enough to allow for great build diversity. Notice that I've been saying I consider my ideas optimal for the way I play. I'm not saying they're the one and only best way, and neither are yours. One of the ways you know a decently-balanced RPG is that there is no one best cookie-cutter build for all situations. There is more than one right answer, and many ways to beat the game. Play the way you want to play, and have fun.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Nobear