Question: TCS, Wizards, Second Chance, and other items

[Omnicron]

Congratulations on a solid run and the honesty with how it played out. I agree 100% about Thaos being the true trial, though reaching him with a legit ToI is still a massive accomplishment because there are so many little things that could go wrong.  My druid run has been on hold for close to two weeks in Act 3 already, simply because I dread the final fight on a pure caster. I gave up on trying to use a caster wizard after dying to Thaos in 1.04, being pretty sure that a buff and combat centric wizard will have a consistently good chance against him, especially with the latest patch. Regarding the stats, I also agree that Per is probably the least valuable of the bunch and can easily be dumped for Con or even Dex.

 

The combat related bugs feel way more frequent to me. Ran into both bug types that you described, the last three times I have played. I think that quitting is completely warranted in those situations, though I whipped myself to restart the runs for the sake of a "clean" recording.  Anyways, good job and I enjoyed reading through the discussion here.

 

@knownastherat: The final fight was done in 1.05 so it should still work, unless you are referring to something else.

 

Thanks man!

 

While my buffs were up I was untouchable, problem was that I would run out of Spirit Lance. I needed a new one for each encounter and there are also other important spells in that level, but since I do not use the spear's Splash damage I should just give him a proper weapon. I think after watching your fight I should have given my wizard Tidefall, taking the appropriate weapon focus talent, and buff with Citzal's Martial Power on top of the others instead of trying to land petrify. I have a strong suspicion that would work after my last experience. Different mindset from last time. 

 

Which also leads me to swapping armour for the last fight, not sure what yet, but there is no benefit in using the Saint's War armour.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Omnicron

[MadDemiurg]

Caster wiz can kill Thaos without even cheesing the split. I will post the vid. It is much easier than trying to melee tbh. As of 1.05 with petrify nerf thaos can one shot most chars with cleansing flame if you just melee him and petrify trap is harder to land and is often not enough to kill him.

Edited May 14, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[MadDemiurg]

M'kay, here's the vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIDjoea4aHY.

 

I wouldn't say this tactic is 100% reproducible but overall is very reliable. It's definitely more reliable than trying to melee Thaos without disabling him. And we're fighting all of them at once like a man! Well, they are fighting each other, but you get what I'm saying . Landing mind control on Headsman is 100% reliable, his will save is crap. You need to be careful with positioning and pay attention to what Thaos is casting though. It actually works better as a Cipher as Mind Plague is the most powerful mind control spell in the game.

 

If you're wondering if it's doable without scrolls as well - it is, scrolls are just to speedup the process and minimize chances of screw up. You can use piercing burst/frost blast/cracking bolt instead or just wait and CC a bit more and let them kill each other (headsman will need some help from you though). As seen, I still have tons of spells and scrolls left by the end of the fight.

 

This is just one of MANY tactics that can be used for this fight that I've discovered. You need a non TCS save to test them though . Just use your brain.

Edited May 15, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Omnicron]

M'kay, here's the vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIDjoea4aHY.

 

I wouldn't say this tactic is 100% reproducible but overall is very reliable. It's definitely more reliable than trying to melee Thaos without disabling him. And we're fighting all of them at once like a man! Well, they are fighting each other, but you get what I'm saying . Landing mind control on Headsman is 100% reliable, his will save is crap. You need to be careful with positioning and pay attention to what Thaos is casting though. It actually works better as a Cipher as Mind Plague is the most powerful mind control spell in the game.

 

If you're wondering if it's doable without scrolls as well - it is, scrolls are just to speedup the process and minimize chances of screw up. You can use piercing burst/frost blast/cracking bolt instead or just wait and CC a bit more and let them kill each other (headsman will need some help from you though). As seen, I still have tons of spells and scrolls left by the end of the fight.

 

This is just one of MANY tactics that can be used for this fight that I've discovered. You need a non TCS save to test them though . Just use your brain.

 

Wow, that is really cool !!!  gz man. Wizards OP when you know what you are doing Which in the last fight I clearly didn't. I mean lol, you did not use any figurines and hardly used your own spells !!!

 

 

[knownastherat]

Nice indeed, though there is not much difference between split and charm/dominate as they serve the same purpose. Should have done it without scrolls just to demonstrate. I am not expert on this fight (spent most time in Act I and II) but from my limited experience the start of it is crucial. I got level 9 Wiz parked in Bay, probably should take her to the end, just to try stuff.

[MadDemiurg]

Nice indeed, though there is not much difference between split and charm/dominate as they serve the same purpose. Should have done it without scrolls just to demonstrate. I am not expert on this fight (spent most time in Act I and II) but from my limited experience the start of it is crucial. I got level 9 Wiz parked in Bay, probably should take her to the end, just to try stuff.

The difference is that you get the statues to tank it for you . It also gives a more "legit" feeling to me as you're sort of fighting them simultaneously, but that's personal preference. It was possible to brute force the fight in 1.04 with some lucky petrify rolls, but I don't think it's gonna work in 1.05. And it wasn't a TC worthy strategy anyway, since it worked like maybe in 70% cases.  Start is actually always the same, so it's easy to reproduce. I'll post some general tips later.

[Eywa]

 

Nice indeed, though there is not much difference between split and charm/dominate as they serve the same purpose. Should have done it without scrolls just to demonstrate. I am not expert on this fight (spent most time in Act I and II) but from my limited experience the start of it is crucial. I got level 9 Wiz parked in Bay, probably should take her to the end, just to try stuff.

The difference is that you get the statues to tank it for you . It also gives a more "legit" feeling to me as you're sort of fighting them simultaneously, but that's personal preference. It was possible to brute force the fight in 1.04 with some lucky petrify rolls, but I don't think it's gonna work in 1.05. And it wasn't a TC worthy strategy anyway, since it worked like maybe in 70% cases.  Start is actually always the same, so it's easy to reproduce. I'll post some general tips later.

 

Oh, well done! Before I only have seen split-to-win type of strategy which is a bit strange that it works because for example Adra Dragon boss would kept chasing you through that big ass map non-stop but here Thaos and his guys are unable to do that in that small room. 

[knownastherat]

Well, once I managed to survive initial round or two probability of making it through increased greatly (was replaying the initial rounds more than the rest of the fight), on my "pacifist" Rogue run. I was splitting them though, without activating figurine. 70% is good enough for me.

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

Nice indeed, though there is not much difference between split and charm/dominate as they serve the same purpose. Should have done it without scrolls just to demonstrate. I am not expert on this fight (spent most time in Act I and II) but from my limited experience the start of it is crucial. I got level 9 Wiz parked in Bay, probably should take her to the end, just to try stuff.

The difference is that you get the statues to tank it for you . It also gives a more "legit" feeling to me as you're sort of fighting them simultaneously, but that's personal preference. It was possible to brute force the fight in 1.04 with some lucky petrify rolls, but I don't think it's gonna work in 1.05. And it wasn't a TC worthy strategy anyway, since it worked like maybe in 70% cases.  Start is actually always the same, so it's easy to reproduce. I'll post some general tips later.

 

Oh, well done! Before I only have seen split-to-win type of strategy which is a bit strange that it works because for example Adra Dragon boss would kept chasing you through that big ass map non-stop but here Thaos and his guys are unable to do that in that small room. 

 

Thanks. Yeah, splitting them up and fighting 1 by 1 feels too unrealistic to me . Their aggro range is way too short.

 

Well, once I managed to survive initial round or two probability of making it through increased greatly (was replaying the initial rounds more than the rest of the fight), on my "pacifist" Rogue run. I was splitting them though, without activating figurine. 70% is good enough for me.

Well, with a rogue you can just shadowing beyond = initial rounds survived? Anyway, with speed buffs and or/items you can run from them pretty well as I demonstrated.

 

Anyway some general tips:

• Thaos always starts the fight with shields for the faithful. He has some cheater version of the spell, that improves not only his deflection, but also other saves. His reflex is still not that great even with it though. Fort is also beatable, but not low enough to guarantee any consistent hits. It also has much greater duration than normal. However, this version only works on himself. He can also cast it on statues, but they seem to be getting deflection only from this buff.
• 2nd spell Thaos casts is always dominate. He can be convinced to change his priorities by summoning smth, as he'll refocus the squishier targets. Dominate will only last a couple of seconds if all your party is dominated. So either do not summon anything if you expect to be hit by it or try to group all your summons together (his dominate is AoE, so he'll dominate everyone most likely and it will fade in a couple of seconds)
• If in melee with statues keep attention to what they're casting. It's better to eat a disengagement attack than get hit by a shining beacon.
• Most of the spells that both Thaos and statues are casting are aoe and thus dodgeable. This includes confusion, devotions of the faithful, sining beacon, pillar of fire, confusion etc. Dominate and Cleansing flame are impossible to dodge once Thaos starts casting them.
• Cleansing flame is by far the most dangerous Thaos spell. It has lower accuracy than other stuff (only 85 vs 100 on most other spells) and attacks deflection, but if it hits you're most likely dead and being tanky doesn't help much. You need 135 deflection to only get grazed by it and 170+ for immuntiy. As a wizard, pop up your veil/wiz double/displaced image if you see you can't avoid it. it also jumps to 2 additional targets from the original one so if thaos casts it on confused statues or our summons make sure to stay far away (or pop up your defences if you can't). Also, it's a nice idea to not let judge buff Thaos with devotions as his accuracy will go up to 105 which you don't want to happen generally.
• As a wizard, keep your phantom between you and Thaos at all times. This way, Thaos will target the phantom first and it will eat most dangerous spells. If it eats cleansing flame, run away with phantom so it doesn't jump to you.
• Weakest saves - Thaos - reflex, Headsman - will, Judge - reflex. Both statues also have low deflection. Out of the 3 Judge has the weakest fort save so he's the best target for powerful fort targeting spells. Best damage types are pierce and freeze, but it doesn't matter that much.
• Arcane reflection is tempting, however it won't reflect cleansing flame as it's l6 spell and dominate as it's either some ability that does not count as a spell or is counted as a level 6+ (Level 7 priest spell ?). This is a bit disappointing given that it reflects stuff like fampyr charm.

Edited May 15, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Tigranes]

Above post lays it out much better than me. In my experience (1.05 wiz, TCS Solo) the big deal with Thaos was to make the most of the time you have with Arcane Veil, and to take those initial steps to increase your accuracy & reduce his deflection before you waste your Adragans (or whatever else).

 

I tend to be more cheesy with TCS Solos, and a pretty cheesy way is:

-Run left as soon as you start; as you are solo, you won't trigger the second automaton. 

-Dominate? Who cares? They won't attack you either at that time. Don't worry about it. 

-Positioned behind a pillar, Thaos and Statue 1 will be close together. 

-Arcane Veil as protection while you....

-Scrolls of Valour, Eldritch Aim, War Paint - whatever mix you need to get your accuracy up.

-The Weaken/Hobble ability from Rotfinger gloves, and/or whatever else to bring his saves down. 

-Essential Phantom, then Adragan.

-Jolting Boots from Animancer's Boots from both yourself and Adragan. Probably get off 4-6 charges before Adragan ends. 

 

Due to Spellbind's curious mechanics you can do up to 234 crit damage - and due to the bounce you'll probably kill both of them. In fact, my save with that is still bugged out because I killed Thaos before any statues and couldn't get the dialogue scripts to run properly.

 

The strictly non-cheesy way to do it would be to not use Adragan, Animancer's Boots there. Or even scrolls of paralysis and maelstrom, since you could stock up with 15 of each. But whatever you do, I think the point is to have enough survivability (with and without AV) to last - e.g. to me saves v. Prone were important - and then get your accuracy over the 'hump'.

[knownastherat]

 

Well, with a rogue you can just shadowing beyond = initial rounds survived?

 

That is what I thought. Maybe you will get to try it yourself but its not that simple as SB is not always working as described ~ there are instances where enemies can/will follow despite PC being "invisible" ~ seems SB can mess up AI behavior. If it worked like that I'd be done with Thaos in 15 mins not hours. Even if it works, it does not guarantee split. Level 11 with "blind" setup does not allow for many options.