Improving the skill system

[b0rsuk]

I've been thinking about making skills more interesting and useful.

 

Lore: you need high Lore to craft better scrolls, and place weapon enchantments. Each enchantment has a requirement.

Survival: you need high Survival to craft better potions, and place armor enchantments (especially proofing)

Stealth: displays the sum of loot value for each enemy. For example a yellow "20" might display next to an ooze, because you only get a body part. A troll dropping a fine club would display "300" or whatever the value of these things is. This would make it easier for players to judge which encounters are completely optional, and this would boost Stealth skill.

Athletics: doesn't reduce Fatigue. Constitution does. Athletics is removed, scripted encounters depend on Dex or Might. Does anyone have a better idea ?

[LeonKowalski]

Just get rid of fatigue ...

[scrotiemcb]

Athletics: remove, instead use Health for determining Fatigue (ex: Critical Fatigue when below 20% max Health), Health increase from Constitution does not increase Fatigue points (similar to Intelligence and friendly-fire AoE), players have more base Health to compensate.

 

Stealth: remove, add "+1 Stealth" to Perception. (Moving fast doesn't make you sneaky, paying attention does.)

 

Mechanics: remove, add "+1 Disarm Trap" to Intelligence. Disarm becomes an d100 roll: miss = trigger trap, graze = no effect, hit = trap destroyed, crit = trap collected. Use Attributes to modify damage, area of effect, and duration as normal; use player Accuracy to determine Accuracy.

 

Lore and Survival: just remove. Use Attributes to modify damage, healing, area of effect, and duration as normal.

 

Scripted interactions: use Attributes instead.

 

Skill points: Remove and instead give 1 Attribute Point every odd level. (If necessary, give less Attribute Points at character creation.)

Edited April 29, 2015 by scrotiemcb

[b0rsuk]

I like the consumable bonus from Survival. Squeezing every last bit from that scroll of potion makes sense for survival.

 

I don't like the power creep called attributes at levelup. Unless, perhaps, you remove the +3 Accuracy and +3 Deflection all characters get. Attributes are who you are, skills is what you learn. You may improve your Might, Constitution or Intelligence, but there's no way to train eyesight (Perception) or Dexterity.

[Valmond]

I'd also make background/class combo less powerfull in relation to skills.

 

As is, it's a bonus added on top of your skill, meaning you need to buy one less rank you otherwise would.

Meaning that, in order to get a skill to level 12, i rank from class/background is worth 12 skill points, 2 or worth 23 points, 3 is worth 33 points and 4 is 42 skill points, that's a lot.

Yes, it's not as bad if you get only to 10 and have item to raise your rank by 2 (i know a robe with +lore exists, and have heard of gloves with +2 to mechanics), but not sure how reliably they can be found (i think the +mechanics gloves were a random drop, meaning i might not find them).

 

With skill points being as few as they are, this feels like being forced to pick certain backgrounds (merchant/laborer for mechanics, dissident for stealth, noble/cleric for lore) if i want be able to use the skills, especially as the basic followers are not optimized in their starting skill choices (nor useable in conversations), and the hirelings always start level below you (meaning that, at best, they are likely to drag behind by 2k xp, which annoys me to no end).

 

I actually ended up deleting a 30 hour save (at start of act 2, though i had spent loads of time sidetracked in act 1) because my skill selections were a complete mess (though i wanted higher perception for my wizard for convo's, so it was not just skill point issue).

 

I do like backgrounds affecting how you start your character, i just feel they are too limited in number (why are there no scientist in Old Vailia?), and have too powerful long term effect over character progression.

[scrotiemcb]

If you start with 5 less Attribute Points, a level 11/12 character wouldn't feel different than one now. Of course, a level 1 character would feel noticeably different.

 

I feel like the question of "how much should a character improve per level" might be beyond the scope of this thread. It quite possibly should be less improvement per level, but if so huge swaths of content may require major rebalance. Assuming that's a cost we're willing to pay, I think +2 Accuracy/Defenses per level (or even +1) may be appropriate.

 

The idea that you could improve done attributes and not others is kind of absurd.

Edited April 29, 2015 by scrotiemcb

[Zwiebelchen]

Instead of removing skills, I'd rather have the devs improve on them.

 

So far, I liked mechanics. It's an extremely valuable skill to stack for everyone, not just your primary trap/lockpick slave, because it affects trap efficiency and every character can lay only 1 trap.

A group with high mechanics scores all across the board can lay 6 traps, which can turn entire battles around (you might laugh about that on hard, but on PotD, especially with the bounties, you are happy to have traps at your disposal). I think mechanics is perfectly implemented and requires no change.

 

I was very pleased to see my acid trap hit enemies for 30-50 damage (after DR) in a pretty sizable AoE. And that was just one trap. I'll definitely accumulate more mechanics on my next playthrough because traps kick some serious ass!

 

 

Stealth is a little bit one sided. I liked how you can use it to scout enemies and prepare traps without meta game knowledge. It's also great to loot containers in houses or dungeons without having to kill the guards or risking a reputation drop for stealing. But all this can be done with just one character. There is not much to gain with having stealth on everyone ... which is a shame. I think there should be an additional benefit for stealth, like increasing damage when attacking out of stealth mode (so basicly, stealth increases your opener damage).

Lore: the idea to use the lore skill to cast scrolls is nice. Makes it interesting to stack for every character. However, certain characters benefit from this more than others (obviously, characters with a low amount of abilities like fighters and chanters will want Lore as it allows them to cast spells when per-encounter abilities are consumed. I loved to stack lore on Eder to allow him to cast fan of flames.). Overall, I think lore is interesting and pretty balanced the way it is. When later encounters become harder due to a rebalancing of the game (even on hard, not just on PotD), people will definitely stack more lore.

 

Athletics and Survival: Those are imho the only two broken skills. It's not that they are useless, but it's just that the other skills are way more effective. Especially mechanics and lore. I haven't used potions much because of the slow animation in time-critical situations. More than often drinking an endurance potion actually killed my character instead of saving it (in comparison to using a quick healing scroll).

I think Athletics and Survival should benefit endurance and health. It makes sense and would also give those skills a meaning for all classes. Also, drinking potions should be instant; at least then survival would make sense to stack to increase potion effects.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[b0rsuk]

Speaking of Lore, classes which should get it thematically tend to have low use for it. Priests, Druids, Wizards already have lots of activated abilities. Chanters are actually a good fit ! They get something to do while charging their Invocations. It's a bit odd you want to put Lore on Sagani, who only cares about finding the next meal and Persoq, or perhaps Pallegrina, who expresses very little curiosity.

[Zwiebelchen]

Speaking of Lore, classes which should get it thematically tend to have low use for it. Priests, Druids, Wizards already have lots of activated abilities. Chanters are actually a good fit ! They get something to do while charging their Invocations. It's a bit odd you want to put Lore on Sagani, who only cares about finding the next meal and Persoq, or perhaps Pallegrina, who expresses very little curiosity.

 

Then again, I wouldn't think too hard about matching skills with character personalities. I think lore is fine in that regard; it adds some freshness to the auto attacking classes and at the same time makes scroll crafting powerful. I like it a lot.

 

I think the main problem with the skill system is how rarely it's used in dialogues and scripted events. I extremely overestimated, for example, the importance of athletics, pointlessly stacking athletics on a lot of characters (when I didn't have that meta-game knowledge). In most situations, a grappling hook could bypass the athletics skill check for the entire party. This is definitely a flaw in design.

 

Basicly, all characters will want 3-4 athletics to avoid getting fatiqued early and that's it. Rest of the points is better spent on mechanics or lore.

There's barely a point in stacking it further. Survival is worse. Basicly it's only useful for tanks... which makes me curious as to why Hiravious has so much Survival skill when you meet him first.

 

So here's my suggestions for improving the skills:

 

Mechanics: remains as it is. It's perfect, because traps are awesome.

Lore: Pretty good. I don't see a reason to change it. But there should imho be more skill checks in dialogues about Lore.

Stealth: Should also give a big damage/accuracy bonus on the initial surprise attack.

Athletics: Fatique bonus removed; instead, athletics grants extra endurance (not percentual like CON, as it has a diminshing returns built-in ... like 5 endurance per point in athletics). Also, way more athletics skill checks in the game that can not be bypassed with hooks.

Survival: Grants extra health. 20 health per point in Survival. Alternative: remove the "field medic" talent and instead add it to survival and scale the amount healed with skill level.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[scrotiemcb]

I like Mechanics as a skill, too. But it is the only skill which feels right to me. When I see a system that's 20% right I say just gut the whole thing.

[Crucis]

I like Mechanics as a skill, too. But it is the only skill which feels right to me. When I see a system that's 20% right I say just gut the whole thing.

 

Honestly, I think that the Skill system isn't all that bad at all.

 

There are some skills where you need to commit heavily to the skill because over the long haul, it tends to be all or nothing.  And for other skills, it can be useful to have a few points for all characters. 

 

 

 

Instead of removing skills, I'd rather have the devs improve on them.

 

So far, I liked mechanics. It's an extremely valuable skill to stack for everyone, not just your primary trap/lockpick slave, because it affects trap efficiency and every character can lay only 1 trap.

A group with high mechanics scores all across the board can lay 6 traps, which can turn entire battles around (you might laugh about that on hard, but on PotD, especially with the bounties, you are happy to have traps at your disposal). I think mechanics is perfectly implemented and requires no change.

 

I was very pleased to see my acid trap hit enemies for 30-50 damage (after DR) in a pretty sizable AoE. And that was just one trap. I'll definitely accumulate more mechanics on my next playthrough because traps kick some serious ass!

 

 

Stealth is a little bit one sided. I liked how you can use it to scout enemies and prepare traps without meta game knowledge. It's also great to loot containers in houses or dungeons without having to kill the guards or risking a reputation drop for stealing. But all this can be done with just one character. There is not much to gain with having stealth on everyone ... which is a shame. I think there should be an additional benefit for stealth, like increasing damage when attacking out of stealth mode (so basicly, stealth increases your opener damage).

 

Lore: the idea to use the lore skill to cast scrolls is nice. Makes it interesting to stack for every character. However, certain characters benefit from this more than others (obviously, characters with a low amount of abilities like fighters and chanters will want Lore as it allows them to cast spells when per-encounter abilities are consumed. I loved to stack lore on Eder to allow him to cast fan of flames.). Overall, I think lore is interesting and pretty balanced the way it is. When later encounters become harder due to a rebalancing of the game (even on hard, not just on PotD), people will definitely stack more lore.

 

Athletics and Survival: Those are imho the only two broken skills. It's not that they are useless, but it's just that the other skills are way more effective. Especially mechanics and lore. I haven't used potions much because of the slow animation in time-critical situations. More than often drinking an endurance potion actually killed my character instead of saving it (in comparison to using a quick healing scroll).

I think Athletics and Survival should benefit endurance and health. It makes sense and would also give those skills a meaning for all classes. Also, drinking potions should be instant; at least then survival would make sense to stack to increase potion effects.

 

Stealth: Disagree about stealth being "one sided".  Yes, having one super-stealthy character is great for scouting duties.  OTOH, having 3-5 points in stealth will let you get a character within ranged weapons range more easily than if you have no points in Stealth.   If you have 5 out of 6 in the party with 3 or more pts in Stealth but one with nothing, you'll find out very quickly that the character with no stealth stands out like a full moon at night when you try to sneak your party into range for a opening full party volley of ranged weapons.

 

Lore:  I look at Lore as being "education".  Furthermore, I agree that it can be very useful for many in a party to have enough Lore to be able to cast level 1 or 2 scrolls.  Indeed, it can often be easier/safer for a front liner to case a spell like fan of flames than it is for a squishy, back liner wizard.

 

Athletics:  I disagree with people who complain about fatigue.  I think that fatigue is a great mechanic.  To me, Athletics and fatigue represent how in-shape a character is.  A character with no points in Athletics is a couch potato who will tire very quickly, whereas a character with about 3 points in Athletics is in good shape for an adventurer, and won't get pooped out after 2-3 battles.  More than 3 points in Athletics isn't a real necessity for the most part, though I see it as representing a character who goes beyond being in merely good shape and becoming more of a true athlete.  And it probably doesn't hurt to have at least one character with more than 5 points in this skill, for those rare Athletics skill checks.

 

Mechanics:  This seems like an all or nothing skill to me, since as you progress through the story line, traps get progressively more difficult to deal with. 

 

Survival:  While this skill can be useful, you can also play an entire run-thru of the game without needing to use this skill at all.  You don't have to extend potion lengths to successfully play the game.  Well, I suppose that one could get by without some of the other skills too, but it would be painful or make things more difficult.  On my first run thru of the game, I'm not sure that I used a single food potion, for example, and so gained nothing from this skill in that regard.  (I just wasn't used to the idea of "food" potions and never remembered to make use of them, and still have a hard time remembering to do so.)

 

 

I look at all of these skills as something you learn, though Athletics is more of a "physical" education than mental.  If I had one gripe with them, it'd be that they weren't modified by one's attributes.  It seems to me that each skill, or even specific sub-check within a skill, could be/should be modified by at least one attribute.  For example:

 

Stealth should probably be modified by Dex and perhaps Perception.

 

Athletics:  The fatigue portions of Athletics should probably be modified by Con (and possibly Resolve as well), while Athletics skill checks for athletic feats should probably be modified by Dex.

 

Lore should certainly be modified by Int.

 

And Survival should probably be modified by Con and Resolve as well, though this one is a bit trickier.  Survival dialog skill checks may be something that's more about Perception and perhaps Resolve, while Survival skill's potion extension may be more about Con and perhaps Res.

 

Mechanics skill checks for disarming traps and opening locks should probably be modified by Dex, and perhaps Per and/or Int, while its skill usage for setting traps should probably be more about Per and Int, I'm thinking.

 

 

Having said all that, I suspect that they'd also have to consider some rebalancing of the various skill checks in-game if attribute bonuses (or penalties) were included.

 

Something else.  I think that skills like Stealth and Athletics' athletic feat skill checks should be affected by the armor the character is wearing.  For example, it's hard to accept that a plate-wearing fighter isn't going to be less effective than a rogue in padded armor when it comes to stealth, assuming that each has the same number of points in Stealth.  That plate armor should make it a lot more difficult to be stealthy than lighter armor. 

 

This also gives characters another reason for wearing lighter armor, though if one was heavily meta-gaming, I could see some players switching into light (or no) armor when scouting or even moving close to an enemy, and then switching into their "battle" armor right before triggering the battle.  I suppose that one could create some in-game rules that prevent this sort of abuse, but would the cost of this outweigh the negative of the general annoyance of having to deal with those anti-abuse rules?  I don't know.  So it might be that it's just better to ignore any armor related stealth penalties and keep things simpler.

 

 

 

 

Anyways, that's all I have for now.